The Lord Jesus affirmed He is God by teaching He is the proper recipient of prayer
- Thread starter Fred
- Start date
'The Father is greater than I' from Jesus.
Again.. this verse doesn't stand alone. Jesus was talking to the disciples about what He would do soon to ascend to heaven to be one with the Father.
So, this is not a verse about inferiority of Jesus to the Father. Because Jesus ascends soon afterward to be in heaven as one with the Father. 'Greater' in this context, is saying the Father is in a superior position. Jesus was in the flesh.....self limiting.. the Father in heaven .. unlimited. Jesus was going to be equal with the Father.. also unlimited.
Jesus doing things by the 'authority of the Father' or 'by the hand of the Father'.......
Does not mean Jesus is inferior. Jesus was the image of God.. the agent of God. So what the Father does... Jesus does. Same abilities and attributes. An agent.. with the Jewish concept of agency.. is 'as the man himself'.. so the agent's message is seen as equal to the originator of the message. Jesus doing things by the 'hand of the Father' is seen as equal. Not inferior.
This does not make Jesus a seperate being to the Father. But a distinct persona. Just because they are distinct in themselves doesn't mean they have to be seperate beings. Me viewing something as a 2d creature.. to a 3d object is sort of like us viewing the Trinity. The dimensions of God go beyond our plane of thinking.
Again.. this verse doesn't stand alone. Jesus was talking to the disciples about what He would do soon to ascend to heaven to be one with the Father.
So, this is not a verse about inferiority of Jesus to the Father. Because Jesus ascends soon afterward to be in heaven as one with the Father. 'Greater' in this context, is saying the Father is in a superior position. Jesus was in the flesh.....self limiting.. the Father in heaven .. unlimited. Jesus was going to be equal with the Father.. also unlimited.
Jesus doing things by the 'authority of the Father' or 'by the hand of the Father'.......
Does not mean Jesus is inferior. Jesus was the image of God.. the agent of God. So what the Father does... Jesus does. Same abilities and attributes. An agent.. with the Jewish concept of agency.. is 'as the man himself'.. so the agent's message is seen as equal to the originator of the message. Jesus doing things by the 'hand of the Father' is seen as equal. Not inferior.
This does not make Jesus a seperate being to the Father. But a distinct persona. Just because they are distinct in themselves doesn't mean they have to be seperate beings. Me viewing something as a 2d creature.. to a 3d object is sort of like us viewing the Trinity. The dimensions of God go beyond our plane of thinking.
APAK
Active member
The Father is greater that the Son, period. The Father God is always superior than the Son as his position never changes and neither does his Son's subordinate position, in heaven.
The Son goes to heaven to the domain of his Father God to continue to serve him as a humble servant.
He is tasked by the Father to now establish and rule his Kingdom. To become our high priest and advocate.
On the surface these statements are mostly true...but it goes much much deeper.
The husband is greater than his wife, period (Ephesians 5:24).
Therefore, the wife is ontologically inferior to her husband.
The above would be true if we went by your approach.
From post 4:
Question:
Do you believe the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer?
If you are interested in more proof that connects the Lord Jesus being the proper recipient of prayer with Matthew 6, I would first need to know if you agree with me that the "Lord" in all of the following passages are in reference to the Lord Jesus:
1 Thessalonians 3:11, 12 and 13
2 Thessalonians 2:16; 3:1, 3, 4, 5, and 6
2 Timothy 4:17 and 18
civic
Well-known member
Yes that’s a fallacious argument. Roles do not equate to ontology.
Yes, Jesus saw Phillip without being in person with Phillip or within viewing distance.
If that makes Jesus more than a man.. then He is either an angel or God. Angel is out of the question so that makes Him God.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
1 Thessalonians 3:11-13
(11) Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way unto you.
(12) And may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
(13) To the end He may strengthen your hearts your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
(16) Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
(17) Comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good word and work.
2 Thessalonians 3:1-6, 16-18
(1) Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
(2) And that we may be rescued from perverse and evil men: for all men have not faith.
(3) But the Lord is faithful, who shall strengthen and protect you from evil.
(4) And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
(5) May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the steadfastness of Christ.
(6) Now we command you, brethren, in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
(16) Now may the Lord of peace Himself always give you peace in every way. The Lord be with you all.
(17) I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand, and this is a distinguishing mark in every epistle: this is the way I write.
(18) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
2 Timothy 4:17-18
(17) Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that through me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
(18) And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil deed, and preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
1. In 1 Thessalonians 3:11 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: The text reads, "Jesus our Lord."
2. In 1 Thessalonians 3:12 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: Jesus is referred to as the "Lord" immediately before in verse 11, and immediately after in verse 13.
That the "Lord" will strengthen their hearts in verse 13 corresponds to the "Lord" doing the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17. The "Lord" in both instances is the Lord Jesus.
3. In 1 Thessalonians 3:13 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: The text reads, "Lord Jesus."
4. In 2 Thessalonians 2:16 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: The text reads, "Lord Jesus Christ."
5. In 2 Thessalonians 3:1 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: "The Lord" refers to the Lord Jesus in 2 Thessalonians 3:3, 4, and 5. "Lord" also refers to the Lord Jesus in 2 Thessalonians 2:16 and 2 Thessalonians 3:6.
6. In 2 Thessalonians 3:3 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: The same Greek word for strengthen (stērizō) when used by Paul in association with the "Lord" refers to the Lord Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 and 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17.
7. In 2 Thessalonians 3:4 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: Paul's confidence in the Lord corresponds to his trust in the Lord in reference to the Lord Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 3:4 (peithō)
confidence in the Lord (πεποίθαμεν δὲ ἐν κυρίῳ)
Philippians 2:24 (peithō; cf. Philippians 1:14)
trust in the Lord (πέποιθα δὲ ἐν κυρίῳ)
Furthermore, the commands (parangellō) given by Paul are used in association with the Lord Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 3:4, 6 (cf. v. 12)
(4) And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
(6) Now we command you, brethren, in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
8. In 2 Thessalonians 3:5 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: The same Greek word for direct (kateuthynō) used by Paul in association with the "Lord" refers to the Lord Jesus in 2 Thessalonians 3:11.
9. In 2 Thessalonians 3:16 the "Lord" (used twice) refers to the Lord Jesus.
Proof: The "Lord" (kyrios) is used 9 times in 2 Thessalonians chapter 3 and every time it is in reference to the Lord Jesus.
It is used 13 more times in chapters 1 and 2 and once again always in reference to the Lord Jesus. If anyone disagrees then I'd like to see the passage within this book where "Lord" (kyrios) does not refer to the Lord Jesus.
The Lord being with them all in relation to peace in v. 16 corresponds with the grace of the same Lord (Jesus) being with them all in v. 18.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:2 both grace and peace are used in association with the "Lord" in reference to Jesus.
"May the Lord" in 2 Thessalonians 3:16 refers to the same Lord (Jesus) when Paul wrote, "May the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians 3:12, and "May our Lord Jesus Christ" in 2 Thessalonians 2:16, and "May the Lord" in 2 Thessalonians 3:5.
10. In 2 Timothy 4:17 and 2 Timothy 4:18 the "Lord" refers to Jesus.
Proof: The Lord who "stood" with Paul in 2 Timothy 2:17 is the same Lord (Jesus) who stood with him in Acts 23:11. Furthermore, the Greek word for strengthened (endynamoō) in 2 Timothy 4:17 is used only two other times in Paul's' letters to Timothy and both times are in reference to the Lord Jesus (1 Timothy 1:12 and 2 Timothy 2:1).
Just as the Lord Jesus delivered (rhyomai) Paul from the lion's mouth (4:17), He will deliver (rhyomai) Paul from every evil deed (4:18).
"His heavenly kingdom" in 2 Timothy 4:18 corresponds to "His appearing and His kingdom" in reference to Christ Jesus in 2 Timothy 4:1.
Lord willing in my next post here I will discuss praying to the Lord Jesus.
I first wanted to make clear that the "Lord" is used in reference to Jesus in the passages above.
The Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
May our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord (1 Thessalonians 3:11)
May the Lord (1 Thessalonians 3:12)
May our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father (2 Thessalonians 2:16)
May the Lord (2 Thessalonians 3:5)
May the Lord (2 Thessalonians 3:16)
All the passages above refer to Paul praying to the Lord Jesus. In addition to the Lord Jesus, sometimes this prayer includes the Father (1 Thessalonians 3:11 and 2 Thessalonians 2:16). Unitarians who deny the Lord Jesus is God ought to take notice that in 2 Thessalonians 2:16 Paul mentions Jesus first in the prayer. Paul would not place a creature (no matter how highly exalted) before the Creator in prayer.
What Paul prayed for the Lord Jesus to do corresponds with what David prayed for YHWH to do.
2 Thessalonians 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the steadfastness of Christ.
1 Chronicles 29:18
O Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this forever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of Thy people, and direct their heart unto Thee.
Paul's prayer to the "Lord of peace" (Jesus) corresponds with his prayer to the "God of peace."
2 Thessalonians 3:16
Now may the Lord of peace Himself always give you peace in every way.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul's prayer that the Lord Jesus will be with them all corresponds to the prayer by Boaz that YHWH would be with them.
2 Thessalonians 3:16
The Lord be with you all.
Ruth 2:4
May the Lord be with you.
Despite the evidence above (as well as in other passages) many who deny the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer still maintain that only the Father is the proper recipient of prayer based on Matthew 6:9.
However, the Lord Jesus also affirmed He is the proper recipient of prayer (see the OP) as did other writers of the New Testament. In fact, even key words/expressions used in Matthew 6 refer to the Lord Jesus elsewhere in equality with the Father.
Matthew 6:6-13
(6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy inner room, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father, who seeth in secret, shall reward thee.
(7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
(8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him.
(9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name.
(10) Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
(11) Give us this day our daily bread.
(12) And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive the trespasses of others.
(13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Matthew 6:6
One can pray to the Father because He seeth in secret. One can be anywhere at any time and even speaking silently within his/her heart and the Father will still be able to hear them. This is because He fully knows the hearts of all.
1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men.
Since the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all demonstrates He is the proper recipient of prayer (John 2:24-25; Acts 1:24; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 2:23). In fact, the same Greek word for "secret" (kryptos) that the Father sees (Matthew 6:6) is used in reference to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus in 1 Corinthians 4:5 ("hidden things").
Matthew 6:9
The same Greek word for "pray" (proseuchomai) is used in reference to the Lord Jesus in Acts 1:24.
The same Greek word for "hallowed" (hagiazō) is used in reference to the Lord Jesus in 1 Peter 3:15 ('sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts'). Furthermore, Peter is quoting an Old Testament passage that concerns itself with the worship of YHWH (Isaiah 8:13) and applies it in reference to the Lord Jesus.
Matthew 6:10
"Thy will be done" is used in equality with "The will of the Lord be done" in reference to Jesus in Acts 21:14 (cf. v. 13).
Matthew 6:13
The same Greek word for "deliver" (ryomai) in Matthew 6:13 in reference to the Father is used in reference to the Lord Jesus in 2 Thessalonians 3:2. The same applies concerning the word "evil" (ponēros) as seen below. Thus, the prayer to the Father to do such for the believer in Matthew 6 is repeated by Paul in 2 Thessalonians but this time in reference to the Lord Jesus. Paul prayed for others in 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, and now he is asking them to pray for him (v.1). Notice the "Lord" in reference to Jesus is the focus of these passages - another proof for "prayer" (proseuchomai) unto the Lord Jesus (2 Thessalonians 3:1).
Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
2 Thessalonians 3:1-3
(1) Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
(2) And that we may be delivered from perverse and evil men: for all men have not faith.
(3) But the Lord is faithful, who shall strengthen and protect you from evil.
This praying to the Lord Jesus with the themes of deliverance from evil (cf. Matthew 6:9, 13) is picked up again by Paul in another epistle.
2 Timothy 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil deed, and preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
The ending of this doxology (a hymn of prayer) to the Lord Jesus in 2 Timothy 4:18 is an exact quotation to Paul's doxology to God in Philippians 4:20 proving that the Father and the Lord Jesus are both the proper recipients of prayer.
ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν (2 Timothy 4:18)
ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν (Philippians 4:20)
May our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord (1 Thessalonians 3:11)
May the Lord (1 Thessalonians 3:12)
May our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father (2 Thessalonians 2:16)
May the Lord (2 Thessalonians 3:5)
May the Lord (2 Thessalonians 3:16)
All the passages above refer to Paul praying to the Lord Jesus. In addition to the Lord Jesus, sometimes this prayer includes the Father (1 Thessalonians 3:11 and 2 Thessalonians 2:16). Unitarians who deny the Lord Jesus is God ought to take notice that in 2 Thessalonians 2:16 Paul mentions Jesus first in the prayer. Paul would not place a creature (no matter how highly exalted) before the Creator in prayer.
What Paul prayed for the Lord Jesus to do corresponds with what David prayed for YHWH to do.
2 Thessalonians 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the steadfastness of Christ.
1 Chronicles 29:18
O Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this forever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of Thy people, and direct their heart unto Thee.
Paul's prayer to the "Lord of peace" (Jesus) corresponds with his prayer to the "God of peace."
2 Thessalonians 3:16
Now may the Lord of peace Himself always give you peace in every way.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul's prayer that the Lord Jesus will be with them all corresponds to the prayer by Boaz that YHWH would be with them.
2 Thessalonians 3:16
The Lord be with you all.
Ruth 2:4
May the Lord be with you.
Despite the evidence above (as well as in other passages) many who deny the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer still maintain that only the Father is the proper recipient of prayer based on Matthew 6:9.
However, the Lord Jesus also affirmed He is the proper recipient of prayer (see the OP) as did other writers of the New Testament. In fact, even key words/expressions used in Matthew 6 refer to the Lord Jesus elsewhere in equality with the Father.
Matthew 6:6-13
(6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy inner room, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father, who seeth in secret, shall reward thee.
(7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
(8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him.
(9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name.
(10) Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
(11) Give us this day our daily bread.
(12) And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive the trespasses of others.
(13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Matthew 6:6
One can pray to the Father because He seeth in secret. One can be anywhere at any time and even speaking silently within his/her heart and the Father will still be able to hear them. This is because He fully knows the hearts of all.
1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men.
Since the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all demonstrates He is the proper recipient of prayer (John 2:24-25; Acts 1:24; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 2:23). In fact, the same Greek word for "secret" (kryptos) that the Father sees (Matthew 6:6) is used in reference to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus in 1 Corinthians 4:5 ("hidden things").
Matthew 6:9
The same Greek word for "pray" (proseuchomai) is used in reference to the Lord Jesus in Acts 1:24.
The same Greek word for "hallowed" (hagiazō) is used in reference to the Lord Jesus in 1 Peter 3:15 ('sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts'). Furthermore, Peter is quoting an Old Testament passage that concerns itself with the worship of YHWH (Isaiah 8:13) and applies it in reference to the Lord Jesus.
Matthew 6:10
"Thy will be done" is used in equality with "The will of the Lord be done" in reference to Jesus in Acts 21:14 (cf. v. 13).
Matthew 6:13
The same Greek word for "deliver" (ryomai) in Matthew 6:13 in reference to the Father is used in reference to the Lord Jesus in 2 Thessalonians 3:2. The same applies concerning the word "evil" (ponēros) as seen below. Thus, the prayer to the Father to do such for the believer in Matthew 6 is repeated by Paul in 2 Thessalonians but this time in reference to the Lord Jesus. Paul prayed for others in 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, and now he is asking them to pray for him (v.1). Notice the "Lord" in reference to Jesus is the focus of these passages - another proof for "prayer" (proseuchomai) unto the Lord Jesus (2 Thessalonians 3:1).
Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
2 Thessalonians 3:1-3
(1) Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
(2) And that we may be delivered from perverse and evil men: for all men have not faith.
(3) But the Lord is faithful, who shall strengthen and protect you from evil.
This praying to the Lord Jesus with the themes of deliverance from evil (cf. Matthew 6:9, 13) is picked up again by Paul in another epistle.
2 Timothy 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil deed, and preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
The ending of this doxology (a hymn of prayer) to the Lord Jesus in 2 Timothy 4:18 is an exact quotation to Paul's doxology to God in Philippians 4:20 proving that the Father and the Lord Jesus are both the proper recipients of prayer.
ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν (2 Timothy 4:18)
ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν (Philippians 4:20)
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Johann
Well-known member
Jesus Receives The Very Same Worship Given To God
In light of the foregoing NT teaching that Jesus is the Creator of all things, it is little wonder that we find the Lord Jesus saying the following:
"The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, EVEN AS they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." John 5:22-23
Notice that Jesus doesn’t say to honor him as one honors a prophet or one’s parents. Jesus very bluntly says that he must be honored in exactly the same way God is honored, i.e. Jesus is demanding the very worship due to God since the way one honors God is to worship him:
"‘Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.’" John 4:20-24
The inspired book of Revelation shows Jesus being honored in exactly the same way that God is. Notice, for instance, the way in which the inhabitants of heaven worship God:
"After this I looked, and lo, in heaven an open door! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, ‘Come up hither, and I will show you what must take place after this.’ At once I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne! And he who sat there appeared like jasper and carnelian, and round the throne was a rainbow that looked like an emerald. Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads. From the throne issue flashes of lightning, and voices and peals of thunder, and before the throne burn seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God; and before the throne there is as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And round the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle. And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, ‘Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!’ And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing, ‘Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and were created.’" Revelation 4:1-11
The Old Testament says something similar:
"Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all." 1 Chronicles 29:11
In the very next chapter of Revelation, John sees all creation giving the Lord Jesus the very same worship:
"And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals; and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?’ And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. Then one of the elders said to me, ‘Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.’ And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth; and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, ‘Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!’ And I heard EVERY CREATURE in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, ‘To him who sits upon the throne AND TO THE LAMB be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!’ And the four living creatures said, ‘Amen!’ and the elders fell down and worshiped." Revelation 5:1-14
John, here, sees that every creature worships not only God who sits on the throne, but also the Lamb, the Lord Jesus Christ! What makes this all the more amazing is that if every creature worships both God and the Lamb, then the Lamb cannot be a creature; otherwise he would be part of that very group of creation which worships God. Instead, John sees Jesus as being separate from all creation, existing in the very same category of being as God, indicating that John believed Christ is eternal.[1]
According to the OT, all the so-called gods and angels must worship God:
"Ascribe to the LORD, O heavenly beings, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength. Ascribe to the LORD the glory of his name; worship the LORD in holy array." Psalm 29:1-2
And:
"All worshipers of images are put to shame, who make their boast in worthless idols; all gods bow down before him." Psalm 97:7
"Let all that worship graven images be ashamed, who boast of their idols; worship him, all ye his angels." LXX
The inspired writer of Hebrews applies the above passage to the Lord Jesus:
"And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, ‘Let ALL God's angels worship him.’" Hebrews 1:6
Thus, Jesus receives the same worship of the angels which the Old Testament says must be given to God!
The Hebrew Scriptures teach that God has ordained praise and strength from the mouth of infants.
"O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is thy name in all the earth! Thou whose glory above the heavens is chanted by the mouth of babes and infants, thou hast founded a bulwark because of thy foes, to still the enemy and the avenger." Psalm 8:1-2
"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger." LXX
Amazingly, the Lord Jesus justifies the praise he received from children by quoting this very Psalm:
"But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David!’ they were indignant; and they said to him, ‘Do you hear what these are saying?’ And Jesus said to them, ‘Yes; have you never read, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast brought perfect praise"?’" Matthew 21:15-16
The only way for this quotation from the Psalms to count as valid justification for Jesus not to forbid, but to confirm the praise of his own person, from those children is if he was equating himself with Yahweh God. Jesus is basically saying that to praise him is to praise Yahweh God!
Other references showing Christ as the Object of worship include[2]:
"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, ‘Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.’ ... Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared; and he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, ‘Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.’ ... When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy; and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." Matthew 2:1-2, 7-8, 10-11
"And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’" Matthew 14:33
"Then the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something." Matthew 20:20
"And behold, Jesus met them and said, ‘Hail!’ And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him... And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matthew 28:9, 17
"And whenever the unclean spirits beheld him, they fell down before him and cried out, ‘You are the Son of God.’" Mark 3:11
"And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped him; and crying out with a loud voice, he said, ‘What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.’ For he had said to him, ‘Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!’" Mark 5:6-8
"Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet, ... But the woman, knowing what had been done to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him, and told him the whole truth." Mark 5:22, 33
"But immediately a woman, whose little daughter was possessed by an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell down at his feet." Mark 7:25
"But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, ‘Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.’ ... While he was in one of the cities, there came a man full of leprosy; and when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and besought him, ‘Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.’" Luke 5:8, 12
"Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, ‘Do you believe in the Son of man?’ He answered, ‘And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?’ Jesus said to him, ‘You have seen him, and it is he who speaks to you.’ He said, ‘Lord, I believe’; and he worshiped him." John 9:35-38
"Then Mary, when she came where Jesus was and saw him, fell at his feet, saying to him, ‘Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.’" John 11:32
"Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord.’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.’ Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.’ Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.’ Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name. John 20:24-31
Wrangler
Well-known member
We are not communicating. I am citing the words of our lord. You are disregarding his words.
To you, his words mean nothing. Supporting your heretical doctrine by any means necessary is what matters. Your claim of what Jesus receives means nothing as you are just reading into his actions as a way to disregard what he says!
Jesus says and does worship and pray to only his God, the only true God, who alone is YHWH, who we relate to as father. And no amount of diversion is going to change that.
Please acknowlege that Jesus taught us to pray only to God, the Father. Thanks!
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Please forward the verse that has the word "only" in it. Thanking you in advance.
At the time of Matt 6:9, the Word of God (Jesus) was not yet ascended back into Heaven and did not yet have His God Glory given back to Him. Now, He is as Rev 19:11-16 states which naturally elicits worship from any normal understanding person:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
Pay attention:
Paul included the Lord Jesus in his always given thanks to God the Father.
Ephesians 5:20
Giving thanks always for all things unto God even the Father in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 1:12
I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who strengthened me, for He considered me faithful, putting me into the ministry.
Don't just read one passage and think that it cancels out other passages of the Bible.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Already provided.
Also, there is a defiance in not following our lords' command without using the word 'only.' He says to pray like this, "Our Father, who is in heaven." That's taken by you to mean we are free to pray to anyone since he did not use the word "only." Do you realize how ridiculous your position is?
Wrangler
Well-known member
It's not really relevant. Jesus never said to pray to him, pray to me after I ascend, etc.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Agreed. Doesn't make the man, his own God.
Evasion.
It proves that (1) Matthew 6:9 does not forbid praying to Jesus; and (2) other passages (which you keep running away from) demonstrate the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
And yes, this demonstrates He is God.
Massive failure on your part.
You were too scared to even tell us which Epistle and verse number.
