The Judaizer

[DavP]

This is an extremely... serious matter firstly... for all Gentile believers on Jesus Christ. And secondly for Jewish believers on Jesus Christ that need to know where to draw the line regarding the law of Moses and the Gentiles.

What's a Judaizer?

Judaizer is a term that has been used about Jewish converts to Jesus Christ in the days of the early Christian Church that tried to force Gentile believers to have their flesh circumcised in order to be saved (i.e., to keep the law). There are certain Jewish Christian factions that still exist today that believe in keeping the law in order to be saved.*

Therefore, all... believers on Lord Jesus Christ should be aware of this problem in today's Christian Church.

Acts 15:1-2
15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
KJV

Those "certain men which came down from Judaea" is about Jewish converts to Christ that came down from Jerusalem for a visit to brethren where Apostle Paul and Barnabas were. Those Judaizers were telling the brethren they must be flesh circumcised per the law of Moses in order to be saved. Then Paul and Barnabas went up to Jerusalem to the Apostles with the matter.

When Paul and Barnabas got to Jerusalem, and were greeted by the Apostles, and were received of the Church there, then certain converts to Jesus Christ of the sect of Pharisees rose up and declared it was necessary to be flesh circumcised, and keep the law of Moses.

Peter then reminded those at Jerusalem of how God had sent him to preach The Gospel to Gentiles (Acts 10), and how The Holy Spirit fell upon them as well as the Apostles at the first. So James quoted from the Old Testament prophets about that very thing involving God's Salvation to the Gentiles also. Then it was decided to not bother the Gentiles with shackles of law keeping, only that they abstain from meats offered to idols, and from eating blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication.**

Later in Acts 21, Apostle James approaches Apostle Paul about this matter of Paul's teaching Salvation without... law keeping, and coerced Paul into doing penance by going through a Jewish purification ritual with other brethren. James repeated that the Gentile brethren would still be subject only to what was said before in Acts 15:22-29, to abstain from meats offered to idols, from things strangled, from blood, and from fornication. This suggests that law keeping was still required specifically for the Jews, regardless that Salvation is still only by God's grace through Faith on Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul did not agree to law keeping being required for the Jew, but simply did what James asked to appease him.***

In Galatians, Apostle Paul revealed these Judaizers still working in Christ's Church, and causing conflict...

Gal 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him That called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
KJV

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2, Paul pointed to the Judaizer working again, when he warned how the brethren there had their understanding mixed up by those who were writing letters as if from the Apostles, about when the day of The Lord with Jesus' coming and our gathering would be.

2 Thess 2:1-2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV

In Galatians 2, Paul pointed out the Judaizers who were sneaking around spying out the brethren's liberty in Christ (i.e., checking the bathroom to see if the Gentiles had been flesh circumcised).

Gal 2:3-6
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
KJV

Then when even Peter came to Antioch, and his Jewish brethren came for a visit, Peter withdrew from eating with the Gentile brethren, as did those Jews that came from Jerusalem also. Paul gave Peter a rebuke in The Gospel for doing that...

Gal 2:11-21
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, "If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved Me, and gave Himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
KJV


In this day and time, it is especially important to be aware of the ecumenical globalist religious movement of the joining of all religions under one roof, and under one head (when the false Messiah gets here in our near future). Just as some Christian Churches today have succumbed to the Ecumenical movement of allowing other religions to come into their Christian Church and put on pagan exhibitions in front of the communion table of Christ, some of those Churches also are answering the call by the orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem to join their religious movement to rebuild Israel and the 3rd temple. Don't think for one moment your particular Church can't be just a step away from such deceptions.


* (There is no problem with wanting to keep God's laws that Lord Jesus did not nail to His cross, as long as the believer understands following the law is not what saves us. Only by Faith on the Blood of Jesus Christ may we be saved, and that only as a free gift from GOD.)

** (Apostle Paul would later add to this list as per 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5, that the sins of murder, theft, rape, telling lies, perjury, homosexuality, manslayers, whoremongers, menstealers, etc., can keep even a believer out of the Kingdom of Heaven if they continue to practice such things.)

*** (Per the Gen.49:10 prophecy, Judah was to keep the law until Shiloh (Christ Jesus) returns. This is why God is still preserving His laws among the devout of Judah still today, that is His laws which Christ did not nail to His cross.)

 

[Diserner]

Seems unclear and compromised.

We need a very strong stand against legalism.

 

[Matthias]

This is an issue that I have with Messianic Judaism and with the Hebrew Roots movement.

 

[DavP]

Seems unclear and compromised.

We need a very strong stand against legalism.

Saying that suggests that you disagree with Christian Doctrine per Christ's Apostles per the Book of Acts and Paul's Epistles.

 

[DavP]

This is an issue that I have with Messianic Judaism and with the Hebrew Roots movement.

I did say it was still going in some Jewish factions that believe on Jesus Christ.

Like I showed per the prophecy for the last days that Jacob gave to his son Judah in Genesis 49:10, that the law would not leave Judah's care until Shiloh come, every Christian needs to understand that and what it means.

Those in Christ well know, or should know, that we are not saved by the law, otherwise righteousness would have been by the law, like Apostle Paul said. We are saved by God's grace, and not of ourselves, but as a free gift from God based on our Faith. That is not by works of the law.

Yet those in Christ naturally will be keeping God's laws by nature, because like Apostle Paul also said in Galatians 5, that if we are led by The Spirit, then we are not under the law, because of the fruit of The Spirit there is no law against.

What is the law then for today, in Christian society? Why must Judah still be in care of the law today, and all the way up to Christ's future coming?

It is because not everyone is led by The Spirit, many still walk by their flesh of which the works of the flesh the law is against.

In order for God's people to live in peace, God's laws must still reign among His people; not the law of the old covenant, like blood ordinances of sacrifices, various washings, keeping certain days, ritual worship, which were the handwriting of ordinances that Lord Jesus nailed to His cross (Col.2:14).

The laws still in effect are against things like Apostle Paul said in 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5 which practices can keep one out of the Kingdom of God, and that is Christian Doctrine per The New Covenant Jesus Christ, not religious dogma, nor legalism.

And believing Judah needs to understand this point about applying God's laws per New Covenant Christian doctrine just as much as Gentile believers on Christ also need to.

 

[Soyeong]

This is an extremely... serious matter firstly... for all Gentile believers on Jesus Christ. And secondly for Jewish believers on Jesus Christ that need to know where to draw the line regarding the law of Moses and the Gentiles.

What's a Judaizer?

Judaizer is a term that has been used about Jewish converts to Jesus Christ in the days of the early Christian Church that tried to force Gentile believers to have their flesh circumcised in order to be saved (i.e., to keep the law). There are certain Jewish Christian factions that still exist today that believe in keeping the law in order to be saved.*

Therefore, all... believers on Lord Jesus Christ should be aware of this problem in today's Christian Church.

Acts 15:1-2
15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
KJV

Those "certain men which came down from Judaea" is about Jewish converts to Christ that came down from Jerusalem for a visit to brethren where Apostle Paul and Barnabas were. Those Judaizers were telling the brethren they must be flesh circumcised per the law of Moses in order to be saved. Then Paul and Barnabas went up to Jerusalem to the Apostles with the matter

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the the problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ.

Either the NT only speaks against incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he has him circumcised in Acts 16:3 right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. The purpose for which God commanded circumcision was not in order to become saved as the result, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect purpose. The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be mistaken as ruling against obeying God's commands for the purposes for which He commanded them.

When Paul and Barnabas got to Jerusalem, and were greeted by the Apostles, and were received of the Church there, then certain converts to Jesus Christ of the sect of Pharisees rose up and declared it was necessary to be flesh circumcised, and keep the law of Moses.

Peter then reminded those at Jerusalem of how God had sent him to preach The Gospel to Gentiles (Acts 10), and how The Holy Spirit fell upon them as well as the Apostles at the first. So James quoted from the Old Testament prophets about that very thing involving God's Salvation to the Gentiles also. Then it was decided to not bother the Gentiles with shackles of law keeping, only that they abstain from meats offered to idols, and from eating blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication.**

Indeed, Peter reminded them that Gentiles heard and believed the Gospel message, which means that they had repented and were obeying the Mosaic Law in accordance with what the Gospel of Christ. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, under the New Covenant, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so Peter again made the point in Acts 15:8-9 that that Gentiles had repented and were obeying the Mosaic Law in support of Pharisees who rose up from among the believers in Acts 15:5. In Acts 15:10-11, Peter ruled in favor of salvation by grace and against salvation by circumcision that had been proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1. No one there argued that Gentiles shouldn't obey the Mosaic Law.

Later in Acts 21, Apostle James approaches Apostle Paul about this matter of Paul's teaching Salvation without... law keeping, and coerced Paul into doing penance by going through a Jewish purification ritual with other brethren. James repeated that the Gentile brethren would still be subject only to what was said before in Acts 15:22-29, to abstain from meats offered to idols, from things strangled, from blood, and from fornication. This suggests that law keeping was still required specifically for the Jews, regardless that Salvation is still only by God's grace through Faith on Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul did not agree to law keeping being required for the Jew, but simply did what James asked to appease him.***

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it, while the position that Gentiles have never needed to obey the Mosaic Law is the position that Gentiles has never needed salvation.

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains a list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentile believer or it does not, so it is contradictory to treat it as being an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other commands that Gentiles should follow, such as the greatest two commandments. Moreover, in Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two commandments, so if you include that Gentiles should obey the greatest two commandments, then you are also including all of the other commandments that hang on them.

In Galatians, Apostle Paul revealed these Judaizers still working in Christ's Church, and causing conflict...

Gal 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him That called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
KJV

In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in 15:18-19, his Gospel message involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and indeed, so you should not interpret Galatians 1:6-7 as speaking against the Gospel that Christ and Paul taught.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2, Paul pointed to the Judaizer working again, when he warned how the brethren there had their understanding mixed up by those who were writing letters as if from the Apostles, about when the day of The Lord with Jesus' coming and our gathering would be.

2 Thess 2:1-2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV

Your problem with the Judaizers is essentially that they were men of lawfulness, however, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 speaks against the antichrist as being the man of lawlessness. In contrast, Christ is the man of lawfulness, so choose which one you want to follow.

Galatians 2

Do you think that God puts us into bondage or frees us from bondage? It is contradictory to think that God frees us form bondage while thinking that following what He has instructed puts us into bondage.

* (There is no problem with wanting to keep God's laws that Lord Jesus did not nail to His cross, as long as the believer understands following the law is not what saves us. Only by Faith on the Blood of Jesus Christ may we be saved, and that only as a free gift from GOD.)

Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, so what was nailed to his cross was the penalty for our transgressions of the Mosaic Law, not the laws themselves. In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Mosaic Law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

** (Apostle Paul would later add to this list as per 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5, that the sins of murder, theft, rape, telling lies, perjury, homosexuality, manslayers, whoremongers, menstealers, etc., can keep even a believer out of the Kingdom of Heaven if they continue to practice such things.)

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list for Gentiles or it does not, take your pick.

 

[DavP]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the the problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ.

Problem areas in Soyeong's post I marked in 'red'.

Nowhere in Scripture did Lord Jesus declare that one is 'saved' by keeping the law. Instead, Apostle Paul preached that we are not saved by the law per the Books of Romans and Galatians.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect in keeping the law, WE are NOT... Jesus, and can NEVER be our own Jesus Christ! Like Apostle Paul said in Gal.3, we ALL have been concluded under sin by the Scriptures, so that Christ's Salvation would be to those who believe on Him! FAITH on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ is HOW... we are saved, NOT by law keeping. And we will continue... to make little slip ups in sin even as believers on Christ! The 1 John 1 chapter is the Christian Doctrine on how to deal with that when it happens.

So don't try to tell me you are PERFECT in keeping God's laws either, for that would make you a LIAR, just like the Pharisees who tried to make the people think they kept the law when they were far from it!

Strange, you must have a different Bible than I do, because I cannot find anywhere where Jesus or His Apostles said one must keep the law of Moses to be saved!

Acts 13:39
39 And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
KJV

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."
KJV

John 1:12
12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:
KJV

John 3:15
15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
KJV

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
KJV

John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.
KJV

Acts 10:43
43 To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.
KJV

 

[Soyeong]

Problem areas in Soyeong's post I marked in 'red'.

Nowhere in Scripture did Lord Jesus declare that one is 'saved' by keeping the law. Instead, Apostle Paul preached that we are not saved by the law per the Books of Romans and Galatians.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect in keeping the law, WE are NOT... Jesus, and can NEVER be our own Jesus Christ! Like Apostle Paul said in Gal.3, we ALL have been concluded under sin by the Scriptures, so that Christ's Salvation would be to those who believe on Him! FAITH on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ is HOW... we are saved, NOT by law keeping. And we will continue... to make little slip ups in sin even as believers on Christ! The 1 John 1 chapter is the Christian Doctrine on how to deal with that when it happens.

So don't try to tell me you are PERFECT in keeping God's laws either, for that would make you a LIAR, just like the Pharisees who tried to make the people think they kept the law when they were far from it!

Strange, you must have a different Bible than I do, because I cannot find anywhere where Jesus or His Apostles said one must keep the law of Moses to be saved!

Acts 13:39
39 And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
KJV

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."
KJV

John 1:12
12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:
KJV

John 3:15
15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
KJV

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
KJV

John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.
KJV

Acts 10:43
43 To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.
KJV

The problem of what you marked in red is where I quoted verses to support that followers of Christ should follow his example of walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law, however, I said nothing to support that followers of Christ should follow his example of walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law in order to earn our salvation as a wage, so you are countering a position that I don't hold. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their salvation as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of why we should obey it, which is why there are many verses that speak against earning it as a wage. However, there also are many verses that show that our salvation nevertheless still requires us to choose obedience, such as in Hebrews 5:9, where Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him.

God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions while it is contradictory to have faith in God, but not in His instructions. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong in all of our ways and He will make our way straight, and this what it means to have faith. By doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), which is also expressing the belief that God is good, in other words, that is the way to believe in His name. In Matthew 19:17 and Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life, which combined with verses that say that believing in Jesus is the way to enter eternal life means that God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus. In other words, obedience to God's word is the way to believe in God's word made flesh.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, obedience to Jesus is equated with obeying him. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is also an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to the Mosaic Law is referred to as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, disobedience to the Mosaic Law is equated with unbelief. These and many other verses make it abundantly clear that obedience to God is the way to have faith and it is by this faith that we are saved, which has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation through perfect obedience. The fact that we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed God's instructions does not mean that we are not still obligated to obey them.

Please address the points that I made in my first post.

 

[DavP]

The problem of what you marked in red is where I quoted verses to support that followers of Christ should follow his example of walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law, however, I said nothing to support that followers of Christ should follow his example of walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law in order to earn our salvation as a wage, so you are countering a position that I don't hold.

I don't buy your back-tracking on that.

Your whole... theme of your previous post was about being PERFECT in following Christ's example of HIS keeping God's law. Yet Lord Jesus did NOT include any idea of keeping the law of Moses in order to be SAVED.

And in my original post I ALREADY SHOWED what the Apostles in Jerusalem led by Apostle James prescribed for Gentile believers on Jesus Christ, and also how Apostle Paul added to that list in His Epistles!

But YOU obviously want to debate about FOLLOWING THE LAW, and do not care what I showed in my original post about the law.

So bite the dust, welcome to my IGNORE LIST!

 

[Soyeong]

I don't buy your back-tracking on that.

Your whole... theme of your previous post was about being PERFECT in following Christ's example of HIS keeping God's law. Yet Lord Jesus did NOT include any idea of keeping the law of Moses in order to be SAVED.

And in my original post I ALREADY SHOWED what the Apostles in Jerusalem led by Apostle James prescribed for Gentile believers on Jesus Christ, and also how Apostle Paul added to that list in His Epistles!

But YOU obviously want to debate about FOLLOWING THE LAW, and do not care what I showed in my original post about the law.

So bite the dust, welcome to my IGNORE LIST!

I never stated in that we need to obey the Mosaic Law in order to earn our salvation, so I'm not backtracking on anything. Likewise, I never even used the word "perfect" in my first post, so that has nothing to do with the theme of that post. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Mosaic Law is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation even by having perfect obedience to it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. I interacted with what you said in your OP to explain why I disagreed with what you said, so I do care about what you said, I just think that it is wrong for reasons that I stated.

 

[Soyeong]

Does else think that I stated in my first post that we need to obey the Mosaic Law in order to earn our salvation or that we need to have perfect obedience to it? People have the freedom to ignore me if they want, but it should be because of things that I've said and because they have assigned to me a position that I don't hold.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Take it as evidence that you won the debate by being told you are on his ignore list.LOL.

 

[Johann]

we need to obey the Mosaic Law

How little most people know about the Law, the Ten Commandments!

First, most people have a hazy idea that the Law was given to Adam; that it existed as long as the history of man. This, of course, is wrong, for in John 1:17 we read: “The law was given by Moses.” Moses lived some 2,500 years after Adam, about 1,500 years before Christ. So for about 2,500 years mankind lived without the Ten Commandments.

Second, most people suppose that the Law was given to mankind in general, while the fact is that it was given to Israel alone. It was a covenant made between God and Israel. Before giving it God said: “Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people” (Ex. 19:5). This is not to say that the Law does not affect all men, for, as the divine standard of righteousness it affects us all.

Third, most people think that the Law was given to help us to be good. Even some clergymen teach this, though the Bible itself states again and again that the Law was given to show us that we are guilty sinners and need a Savior. Note the following Scripture passages.

Rom. 3:19: “Now we know that what things soever the law sath, it saith to them that are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be brought in guilty before God.”

Rom. 3:20: “By the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Gal. 3:19: “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions….”

Thus the Law can only condemn the sinner. But thank God, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree” (Gal. 3:13).
Pastor Cornelius R. Stam

 

[Soyeong]

How little most people know about the Law, the Ten Commandments!

The Mosaic Law consists of a lot more than just the Ten Commandments, though the rest of the laws are essentially fleshing out the five principles of the Ten Commandments.

First, most people have a hazy idea that the Law was given to Adam; that it existed as long as the history of man. This, of course, is wrong, for in John 1:17 we read: “The law was given by Moses.” Moses lived some 2,500 years after Adam, about 1,500 years before Christ. So for about 2,500 years mankind lived without the Ten Commandments.

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:160), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), which means that they have always existed even before the creation of man. God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about or against His nature are eternally valid. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so people were able to sin by doing what is contrary to God's nature before they had been given laws to refrain from doing that. So therefore no actions that became in accordance or against God's nature when the law was given, but rather God's law revealed what's always been and will always be the way to do that.

There are many examples of God's laws being in place prior to when they were given to Moses, so it is false that they went 2,500 years without them. For example, in Genesis 39:9, Joseph knew that it was a sin to commit adultery long before Moses. In Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and that he must master it, which implies that he already knew what sin is and must have already been given laws in that regard. In Genesis 7:2, Moses was told what to do with clean and unclean animals without being told how to tell the difference, and in 8:20, he knew to offer a clean animal, so he must have already been given laws in that regard.

Second, most people suppose that the Law was given to mankind in general, while the fact is that it was given to Israel alone. It was a covenant made between God and Israel. Before giving it God said: “Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people” (Ex. 19:5). This is not to say that the Law does not affect all men, for, as the divine standard of righteousness it affects us all.

The God of Israel has given laws to teach how to know, worship, love, believe in, and testify about Him, and for how to refrain from sin by contrast, so anyone who wants to do those things can follow those instructions, but we can't do those things instead of following His instructions for how to do them. While those instructions were only given to Israel, they were given to Israel for the purpose of equipping them to be a light and a blessing to the nations by teaching the nations to obey them in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel.

Third, most people think that the Law was given to help us to be good. Even some clergymen teach this, though the Bible itself states again and again that the Law was given to show us that we are guilty sinners and need a Savior. Note the following Scripture passages.

Rom. 3:19: “Now we know that what things soever the law sath, it saith to them that are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be brought in guilty before God.”

Rom. 3:20: “By the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Gal. 3:19: “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions….”

Thus the Law can only condemn the sinner. But thank God, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree” (Gal. 3:13).
Pastor Cornelius R. Stam

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), which is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with those aspects of His nature. Moreover, by God teaching us how to act in accordance with His nature, He is also revealing what sin is, which is what is contrary to His nature. In other words, we can't just teach what is good without also teaching what is not-good by contrast.

So yes, God's law was given to reveal knowledge of what is sin, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't also given to reveal what is holy, righteous, and good by contrast, so it was not given just to condemn, and the goal of giving it was not to bring condemnation. When parents give instructions to their children, then that most likely will result in their children being punished for not following them, but the goal of parents giving instructions to their children is not to bring punishment to their children, but to teach their children how to rightly live.

The Psalms express extremely high praise for the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so the view that it was only given to condemn is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (Romans 3:20), so our Savior saves us from living in sin by leading us to do what is holy, righteous, and good in obedience to it.

In Deuteronomy 28, it describes the blessing of living of living in obedience to God's law and the curse for lawlessness, so being redeemed from the curse of the law is being set free from lawlessness so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from God's law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Judaizer is a term that has been used about Jewish converts to Jesus Christ in the days of the early Christian Church that tried to force Gentile believers to have their flesh circumcised in order to be saved (i.e., to keep the law). There are certain Jewish Christian factions that still exist today that believe in keeping the law in order to be saved.

There's no problem with keeping the LAW. It prevents me from stealing from you, stealing your wife, or murdering you. The LAW is still there big as life, just like it's always been - it's prime purpose is to MAKE SIN VISIBLE. It didn't "Pass away" since it's eternally GOD'S WORD.

The Christian has already JUDGED THEMSELVES, and allowed the LAW to crucify them with Christ. SO the LAW doesn't have any effect on somebody who's dead.

However BREAKING THE LAW is still SIN, and needs to be repented of, and confessed (1 John 1:9).

Denominationally, there are any number of things that: "If you don't do THIS you ain't saved". The UPCI threatens "if you don't speak in tongues, you ain't a Christian!!!" Etc.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Romans 6:14-18
14 For sin shall NOT have dominion over you: for ye are NOT under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves SERVANTS TO OBEY, his servants ye are to WHOM YE OBEY; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made FREE from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Living under the law or legalism keeps one in bondage to sin. One cannot keep IN PART but the whole must be OBEYED or it is the breaking of all which as Paul says gives SIN NOT GRACE dominion over one.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created IN CHRIST JESUS unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The law is all about works,or performances, rituals, traditions ect that one must DO in order to be righteous.
( dietary laws, sabbath & festival keeping, ect)
Many demons such as SDA and Worldwide Church of God with the Hebrew Roots movement & Messianic Jews do this but it is NOT a commandment of Christ !

Ephesians 4:20-24
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, AS THE TRUTH IS IN JESUS:
22 That ye PUT OFF concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the DECEITFUL LUSTS;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye PUT ON the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.