The Jewishness of the Christian Faith
- Thread starter koberstein
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
Hmmmm.
I have been permanently banned on FB... twice. Different accounts.
Wonderful that you do do that.
civic
Active Member
Jesus and Paul were Jews and most of the NT is their wordsYeah, the Jews never, ever twisted God's Word.
Great call.
Diserner
Active Member
Jesus and Paul were Jews and most of the NT is their words
Fallacy of the Irrelevant Thesis.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Jesus and Paul were Jews and most of the NT is their words
What is wrong with this statement of @civic?
Diserner
Active Member
It's saying something that's true but has no bearing on the point.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Nothing. It is biblical fact. All the Biblical writers were Jews
except maybe for Luke.Shalom
e v e
Active Member
Christians in the OT followed Christ.
Met Christ.
Who was there at creation of
eden
Christ is our deity.
He did not start to be
simply at birth in this fallen reality
He was there before
this current type of time
He saw eden fall...
Everything God did
after that was to restore us...
Christianity existed in Eden
it did not start at 0 ad
Christ was there in eden
just as then,
today not all follow Christ
Met Christ.
Who was there at creation of
eden
Christ is our deity.
He did not start to be
simply at birth in this fallen reality
He was there before
this current type of time
He saw eden fall...
Everything God did
after that was to restore us...
Christianity existed in Eden
it did not start at 0 ad
Christ was there in eden
just as then,
today not all follow Christ
e v e
Active Member
nations as a term is generally not referring God's tribes but to demon nations
There were no Christians in the Tanakh.
Your Quran is severely mistaken.
Shalom Aleichem
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Lets talk a bit about Luke and see if there is a reason that God chose him for the importance he held.Nothing. It is biblical fact. All the Biblical writers were Jews
Shalom
We know that Saul/Paul was Jewish yet he was appointed to be the apostle to the Gentiles.
We also know or suspect that it might be that Luke was not Jewish because The Bible never explicitly says Luke was Jewish, and the evidence we do have points the other way that Luke was most likely a Gentile believer. And not one of the 12 disciples.
Any idea as to why Luke is in the first 4 books of the New Testament because from what I have read he was a disciple of Paul's,
Yet he has been influential as authoring one of the first four books as well as writing Acts.
So in my searching about his importance and tie-in even with Paul.... I came to certain knowledge that
Luke was definitely a Gentile which I believe is important for those ( even on here) who feel the Gentiles are most certainly second class people. We also know he was a physician, and he worked extremely close to Paul.
But what had amazed me, and should be made aware to those (even on here... you know who you are) Luke
was God's chosen archivist of Christianity and that God used a Gentile to write the most detailed account of how salvation left Israel and reached the nations. This is the gospel itself.
One question is, can you offer any input as to why God would have place such a person in the role Luke was given as he has never been names a disciple (original12) or even apostle?
This is of no real importance but just seeking ideas for I am merely trying to offset those who have an old testament mind set with certain claims about covenants.
Could it be as simple as to help Paul with the Gentile mindset, or to alleviate a hesitance in Gentiles that they might have with Pauls entry on the scene?
e v e
Active Member
And as Gentiles who are in Christ we are heir to the promise God made to Abraham in Genesis 17:19 per Galations 3:29.
Genesis 17:19
19 ¶ Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him
Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
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jeremiah1five
Active Member
Non-Hebrew Gentiles are NOT heir of the promises given to Abraham and to his seed (Isaac, and Jacob.)
IF you are the biological seed of Abraham then the promises - which have yet to be fulfilled - are passed down through family birth. Abraham asked God for an heir. God gave him an heir: Isaac. When the promises were still yet unfulfilled and Isaac died, the promises passed to Jacob. While the promises were yet to be fulfilled in Jacob';s lifetime and he died, the promises passed to his twelve sons.
You are confusing what Saul said in Galatians TO HIS JEWISH BRETHREN and applying it erroneously to non-Hebrew Gentiles who are NOT the seed of Abraham.
Pay attention:
23 But before faith came, we [JEWS] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Jews were under the Law, NOT Gentiles.
24 Wherefore the law was our [JEWS] schoolmaster to bring us [JEWS] unto Christ, that we [JEWS] might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we [JEWS] are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye [JEWS] are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you [JEWS] as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye [JEWS] are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [JEWS] be Christ’s, then are ye [STILL JEWS AND] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:24–29.
In verse 25 the word is "Greek" ("hellens") and it doesn't say "Gentile" or refer to Gentiles. It refers to Jews who grew up greatly influenced by Greek culture. These were Jews, NOT Gentiles Saul is writing to in the passage you try to pass off as "Gentile" but it doesn't say "Gentile." It says "Hellens" or Hellenized Jews.
If a man has parents still alive and he is marked through a will to inherit his parents' possessions, then HE is the heir to his parents' possessions NOT the man who is a stranger living four blocks away having his own family.
Your understanding of heirship is greatly flawed.
Genesis 17:4-7
| 4 “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. |
| 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram,fn but your name shall be Abraham,fn for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. |
| 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. |
| 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. The word narions here is goy or goyim in hebrew usually is translated nations or gentile nations. |
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The Israelites did some soul search after the destruction of the 1st Temple about what went wrong and the problem was that they didn't know the Torah, so the synagogue system was developed as the solution to the problem.
The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" and it is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to Israel in the wilderness
A child of someone is a person who is in their likeness through embodying their character traits such as with John 8:39 where Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham then they would be doers of the same works as him. This is why those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Torah are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10) and why Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah (Romans 8:4-7). The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is what it means for Jesus to be the Son of God and what it means for us to be born again as children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example.
In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, which is in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of the Torah, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the household of God, becoming born again goes hand in hand with becoming joined with Israel.
Sin is the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4), so the fact that Jesus was sinless means that he set a perfect example for us to follow of how to be a doer of God's character traits in obedience to the Torah and that Paul being an imitator of him also means that he was a doer of God's character traits in obedience to the Torah and that we should be imitators of them. In Acts 24:14, Paul said that according to The Way, which they call a sect, he continued to worship the God of their fathers, believing everything laid down by the Torah and written in the Prophets, so Paul certainly walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah. In 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul used a parallel statement to equate not being outside the Torah with being under the Law of Christ.
God's character traits are eternal, therefore any instructions that God has given for how to be a doer of His character traits are also eternal and cumulatively valid even for those who are not in a covenant relationship with Him. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalm 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalm 119:160). For instance, it was in accordance with God's righteousness to be a doer of charity before God made any covenants with man, so there is nothing about the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete that means that it is no longer in accordance with God's righteousness to be a doer of charity. Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits and sin was in the world before the Torah was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or unrighteous when the Torah was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the one to do that.
New covenants do not nullify the promises of covenants that have already been ratified, so God's covenants are eternally and cumulatively valid. The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if it is cumulative with it. One thing can only make another thing obsolete to the extent that it has cumulative functionality, so a computer makes a typewriter obsolete but does not make a plow obsolete, which means that if the New Covenant involved doing something different that was not cumulative with the Mosaic Covenant, then it could not make it obsolete. So the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10) plus it is cumulatively based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). The fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was not with His righteousness or with His righteous laws, but rather he found fault with the people for not continuing in their covenant (Hebrews 8:7-9), so the solution to the problem was not for God to do away with His righteousness or righteous laws, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying them. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah (Romans 8:3-4), God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).
There was nothing about the veil being torn that means that the Torah is obsolete. Likewise, there was nothing about the destruction of the 1st Temple that caused the Torah to become obsolete, so there is also nothing about the destruction of the 2nd Temple that caused it to become obsolete. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he finished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You misinterpret these verses above and add to the Bible things that are not part of Scripture.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
This covenant is between Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and his Hebrew seed. His wife, Sarai, is Abram's half-sister that he married. You cannot birth a non-Hebrew when both parents are Hebrew. That's like two Chinese parents birthing a Frenchman.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
You misinterpret the word "nations" when you identify "nations" as non-Hebrew Gentiles. At the time of Abraham the word did not mean "Gentile." Sarai, Abram's wife is also his half-sister. Look at what Abraham says:
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. Genesis 20:12.
Both Abram and Sarai are descendants of Eber from whom the word and meaning of "Hebrew" derives. She is the daughter of his father but with a different mother. This makes Abraham and Sarah half-brother and half-sister, both sharing the same father. Thus, he married in the family. Both being Hebrew (descendants of Eber - Genesis 11) and both having a Hebrew child together. Here is the definition of the word "nations" which is the Hebrew "goy" (singular)
rarely (shortened) goy, go’-ee; apparently from the same root as <H1465> (gevah) (in the sense of massing); also (figurative) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts
--- James Strong,
The word means "massing" as in many people, figuratively, flights of birds or troop of locusts.
Abraham also had a son named Ishmael and through Ishmael he had twelve sons. Now we are talking about a "massing" of people that are being born to Abraham (their father) through Ishmael, Jacob, and Esau. Through these men Abraham did become the "father of many people (or nations.)"
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
These "nations" cannot mean Gentiles because at the time of Abraham the word meant something else ("massing.")
Do you see the words "of thee" and "shall come out of thee"? You don't get a non-Hebrew birth when both parents are Hebrew. God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed and non-Hebrews do not come from two Hebrew parents.
Non-Hebrews (not descendant of Eber) were already alive and they were born from Noah's two sons Ham and Japheth. What set apart Abraham and his seed from the descendants of Ham and Japheth was covenant and circumcision of the Hebrew males. Abraham asked God for an heir and God gave him and his wife, Sarah, a Hebrew child named Isaac. Isaac also married in the family when he took two wives (and two handmaidens and servants of Rachel and Leah) and through these four women birthed twelve sons.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
This is a biological covenant that was inherited by Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's twelve sons, a people later to be called "the children of Israel." And it was the Hebrews God delivered out of Egypt. Seventy souls that went to live in Goshen multiplied in 430 years to become over two million souls Moses took and led out of Egypt.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee;
Genesis 17:2–10.
After Abraham died the promises of God and his material possession were inherited by Isaac. When God's promises went unfulfilled in Isaac's lifetime and he died, the promises and his material possessions were inherited by Jacob. After the promises went unfulfilled in Jacob's lifetime the inheritance then fell to his twelve sons. And after 430 years in bondage in Egypt Jacob's twelve sons became over two million souls Moses led out of Egypt and into the desert. While in the desert God made covenant with the children of Jacob/Israel and God gave this people His Law to lead and guide them under God from that day forward. God's Law (Mosaic Covenant) came in three parts: Moral Law, Social Law, and Ceremonial Law. Under the Ceremonial Law the high priest led the children of Israel is worship and sacrifice in the Tabernacle they built under God's instructions. Every year were sacrifices that "covered" the sins of the children of Israel were made in the Tabernacle and the blood of the sacrifice was sprinkled on the Hebrew people and the Mercy Seat of the Hebrew Ark of the Covenant. God made no covenant with non-Hebrews for non-Hebrews were the enemy of the Hebrew children of Israel. After Moses died and Joshua took leadership of the people God ordered them into Canaan and took the land through war and conflict. Once the twelve tribes were in the land God gave each tribal family of Israel land in Canaan. The history of these events are recorded in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy and Joshua. Then there came the judges and finally the people wanted a king and God gave them Saul and later, David to rule over the people. After David died the kingdom fell on his son through Bathsheba, Solomon, and after Solomon died the kingdom of Israel broke and divided to become the nation and House of Israel (of ten tribes), and the nation and House of Judah (of two tribes.)
The Bible calls the people of Israel a "nation." This does not mean the Hebrew people became non-Hebrew for that is impossible. Thus, at the time of Moses and the children of Israel they were a Hebrew "nation" of twelve sons or tribes of Jacob/Israel. Pay attention to the covenant God made with Abraham. It was inherited by his biological seed as Scripture says. Non-Hebrew Gentiles do not "come out of" Abraham for non-Hebrews do not come from the loins of Abraham. But his biological seed does. And that is the beginning of a people to be called the Children of Israel. As for non-Hebrew nations God's attitude is declared by Isaiah:
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.
These nations of non-Hebrews make up what later will be called "the world" and God does not love the "world." He commands His people - the Hebrews - to "not love the world of the things in the world."
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:15–16.
You need to study these things to come to the knowledge of the truth.
