praise_yeshua
Active Member
Has reason ever changed your mind? Or was God required to do that for you too?
God does everything for you.... right?
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Has reason ever changed your mind? Or was God required to do that for you too?
God does everything for you.... right?
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah God saves man, but thats not what you are advocating. Thats what Im advocating, when God saves man, man is a passive recipient of the saving. Whenever its about man being saved its in the passive voice. Eph 2:5,8
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
are saved here is σεσῳσμένοι its a perfect passive participle
Same with Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
again perfect passive participle. Do you know what passive mean ?
brightfame52
Active Member
He gives them repentance, causes a change of mind. The word repentance in Acts 5 31 is μετάνοια:
- a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
- to give
- to give something to someone
- of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage
- to bestow a gift
- of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage
he noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναι τινὶ μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18[/td]
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes in Salvation God does everything in saving a sinner, He gives repentance and Faith in saving one. Jesus came to do just that, everything 1 Tim 1:15
. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Lets "run" with this.
Did you resist God? I love it when Calvinist use the word "passive".....
praise_yeshua
Active Member
If Jesus does everything, then why were you even a sinner? Looks like a lot of suffering was required when it was all avoidable in your theology. The same Person created the mess and then cleaned it up when the mess was avoidable.
I don't think God actually has such a character as you claim he does. God is smarter than that.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You assume that Jesus is onlt sent for the elect? Why did that have to happen. God chose people and then God gifted those people with the faith already to believe..... why did Jesus have to be tortured and sacrificed for those that already were in the in crowd. I asked you that before and you never answered.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Removed, duplicate post
brightfame52
Active Member
Did the clay resist the potter ?
brightfame52
Active Member
So Jesus can receive the Glory for saving sinners.
brightfame52
Active Member
If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It was marred wasn't it? I suppose you think that was God's design.
If you actually knew anything about clay, you'd know the answer.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I know you think God needs you. He doesn't. Jesus doesn't need you does He?
God doesn't require glory from others. Does Jesus need you?
Your poor framework is failing you.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
He doesn't know
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Rinse and repeat.
@FreeInChrist
"Without scriptural warrant"... I have not as of yet even begun to provide support for what I know the word of God teaches, that's coming in my next post.
"That if faith is required"... You are very confused on the two covenants, the one Adam was the head of, and the one Christ was the head of. The second Adam fulfilled perfectly for his elect seed what Adam could not do for posterity. Mre later on this.
"But the fact is, scripture in no way defines faith that way." ....Faith is a work of the law, without any question, if we believe the word of God.
Matthew 23:23~“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
1st John 3:23~“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”
So, is faith on man's part a matter of fulfilling the the law of God? Of course it is, if we believe what the Lord taught in the days of his flesh, and so did his apostles. Faith in the life of the child of God can be increase, to the degree they are diligent in reading, seeking, obeying, praying, etc., living righteous in all they do and say, etc. More on this later.
I have some other duties I must fulfill, so I'll be back later to finish this post from you, maybe in the morning.
"Assuming?" I never approach the scriptures and then leave them to teach others based upon assumptions, if there is any doubt, then I wait for the needed light to make sure, I'm not corrupting the word of God, for it is better not to say thing, then to boldly speak where one does not have the assurance of the truth.
"Without scriptural warrant"... I have not as of yet even begun to provide support for what I know the word of God teaches, that's coming in my next post.
"That if faith is required"... You are very confused on the two covenants, the one Adam was the head of, and the one Christ was the head of. The second Adam fulfilled perfectly for his elect seed what Adam could not do for posterity. Mre later on this.
"But the fact is, scripture in no way defines faith that way." ....Faith is a work of the law, without any question, if we believe the word of God.
Matthew 23:23~“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
1st John 3:23~“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”
So, is faith on man's part a matter of fulfilling the the law of God? Of course it is, if we believe what the Lord taught in the days of his flesh, and so did his apostles. Faith in the life of the child of God can be increase, to the degree they are diligent in reading, seeking, obeying, praying, etc., living righteous in all they do and say, etc. More on this later.
I have some other duties I must fulfill, so I'll be back later to finish this post from you, maybe in the morning.
brightfame52
Active Member
I resisted as much as the clay did when the Potter decided to make a vessel
brightfame52
Active Member
So Jesus can receive the Glory for saving sinners.
What I think or what you think isnt part of the equation
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Hi Red,
No worries—do what you need to do. Morning is fine, and later is fine as well. I have family coming in for the weekend, so I understand how obligations can easily take up more time than we expect.
I do have a couple of comments for you before I go on....
You quoted Matt 23:23 ~“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” And you emphasized matters of the law and also faith.
I see Matt 23:23 differently because while Jesus rebukes Pharisees under the Mosaic Law before the cross.
If faith there were a law-work unto justification, then Paul could not later say that we are not justified by works of the law ~ because Romans and Galatians depend on that distinction.
Now when I say that Romans and Galatians “collapse,” I mean this very specifically: Paul’s entire argument in both letters depends on a clear distinction between works of the law and faith. If faith itself is redefined as a meritorious law-work, then Paul’s contrast fails. He would be saying that we are not justified by works of the law, but by a work of the law—which is a contradiction. Romans 4 explicitly defines believing as not working in the matter of justification, and Galatians is written to defend that same distinction. Remove it, and Paul’s reasoning no longer holds.
That’s not a minor disagreement .... it affects the foundation of Paul’s argument in both letters.
Paul explicitly contrasts faith against works of the law: Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
If faith were a law-work, Paul’s argument becomes incoherent.
Now what about 1 John 3:23 1st John 3:23~“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”
Red, 1 John 3:23 proves obligation, not merit
For certain believing is commanded.But John never says belief earns life. In fact he says the opposite:
1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
Faith receives a gift. A command to receive does not convert the gift into wages.
About my use of the word assuming......
I used the word assuming deliberately, not emotionally.
I meant this very narrowly: you are treating faith as a meritorious law-work, and Scripture itself does not define faith that way.
That faith is commanded is not in dispute. Repentance, love, and obedience are commanded as well. But Scripture is equally explicit that justification is not by works of the law, and Paul goes out of his way to distinguish believing from working.
Romans 4:4–5 defines believing as not working in the matter of justification. If faith itself were a law-work, Paul’s contrast collapses.
Matthew 23:23 speaks to Israel under the Mosaic covenant prior to the cross. Paul later contrasts faith against works of the law, not as one of them.
So the question is not whether faith is commanded. The question is whether Scripture ever treats faith as a meritorious fulfillment of law unto justification. On that point, the testimony of Romans and Galatians is unambiguous.
synergy
Active Member
Welcome to the Book of Romans where Paul warned his believing audience against choosing to be in the flesh rather than being in the Spirit. Dont just read what the Calvinist Overlords tell you to read.
