The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ

Then Heb.2:17 is a lie. He didn't become as a man during the Incarnation. Either that or we are all divine persons.

And Nestorious taught He was two persons. I'm saying for a limited time only He limited Himself to being as a human person. There is a difference.

Again. There is no reference to essence in Heb 2:17. Only an appeal to characteristics. The Essence of Jesus Christ is Divine. The Character of Jesus Christ is Divine. Not sinful. Not peccable. He suffered in our experience and in flesh.
 
I don't see the word "person" in Hebrews 2:17. Can you point it out to me?

"Person" is more than flesh. More than characteristics. Person involves "essence". Jesus did not have the "character" of a sinful man.

Most people don't spend much time dealing with these types of issues. There are clear lines to be drawn here. You're oversimplifying and creating a "necessity" in Hebrews 2:17 that isn't required by the Scriptures.
Yes its like dealing with the C's who cherry pick verses for their eisegesis to support their tulip and the JW's who do the same thing with passages to deny Jesus deity. The whole of scripture is removed in favor of isolated verses as if they stand alone and apart from the whole. Terrible hermenuetics lol.
 
The you are also espousing the Nestorian heresy. You deny the Chalcedon Creed which was against Nestorian heresy. You also deny the Athanasian Creed and the Hypostatic Union.

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos. This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:
 
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Since you love Got Questions maybe you will listen to them. :)

The Nestorians are followers of Nestorius (c. AD 386–451), who was Archbishop of Constantinople. Nestorianism is based on the belief put forth by Nestorius that emphasized the disunity of the human and divine natures of Christ. According to the Nestorians, Christ essentially exists as two persons sharing one body. His divine and human natures are completely distinct and separate. This idea is not scriptural, however, and goes against the orthodox Christian doctrine of the hypostatic union, which states that Christ is fully God and fully man in one indivisible Person. God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58; 10:30), but at the Incarnation Jesus also became a human being (John 1:14).

In the first few centuries of the church, a great debate arose: what is the exact nature of Christ? How can a being be completely divine and completely human? In the West, the Roman Catholic Church decreed Jesus to be “two natures in one person,” and went on to other things. In the East, the definition of Christ’s nature was as much about politics as it was about religion, and the discussion went on far longer.

The Alexandrines, so named because the political loyalties of most who held the view were Alexandrian, were “monophysites.” They insisted that Jesus was, above all, divine. He was the teacher of divine truth and, in order to have had that truth, must have been primarily divine. To emphasize His humanity over His deity led to unthinkable assertions like “God got tired, injured, hungry, thirsty, and then died.” Apollinaris of Laodicea summarized the thought by saying the Word of God took the place of a rational soul so that a human body could preach the truth of God; the body was a mouthpiece.

The Antiochenes from Antioch thought this was ridiculous. A sacrifice that was not fully human could not redeem humans. Antiochenes were “dyophysites.” The Godhead dwelt in Jesus, no doubt, but not in any way that undermined His humanity. Jesus’ two natures were distinct from one another—although no one could precisely explain what that meant.

When Constantine had moved the political capital from Rome to Byzantium (later Constantinople), the church of the West centralized into the religious and political power of the Roman Catholic Church. The church of the East didn’t have that chance. They had several important churches spread throughout the region, each led by their own bishops. Alexandria and Antioch were two of the oldest and most important, but the church in Constantinople was considered as close to Rome as the East had. The clergy of Alexandria and Antioch constantly fought over the bishopric in Constantinople in hopes of uniting the scattered churches into a regional powerhouse.

In AD 428, Nestorius became patriarch of Constantinople. He was from Antioch, and his theological (and political) leanings became clear when he declared Mary to be Christotokos (“bearer of Christ”), not theotokos (“bearer of God”). In so doing, he said more about Jesus than Mary. He said that, above all else, the humanity of Jesus must be emphasized, His nature firmly divided, and that He was comprised of “two natures and two persons.” The human nature and person were born of Mary. The divine were of God.

The Bishop of Alexandria, among others, didn’t agree. He and his supporters marched into Constantinople and held a trial that relieved Nestorius of his position. Shortly after, Nestorius’s supporters finally arrived and held a smaller trial that convicted the Bishop of Alexandria. After much theological debate and political wrangling, Nestorius was exiled back to Antioch.

The Alexandrians exerted more pressure on the Antiochenes. The Antiochenes were forced to leave Antioch; Nestorius lived out his days in Egypt. But many of the Antiochenes fled east into Persia, where they were called “Nestorians” whether they had politically supported Nestorius or not.

The church already in Persia had its own problems. The rulers in Persia were quite religiously tolerant, but politically they hated Rome and anything that came out of Rome. The church in Persia carefully explained that they were not the same church as in Rome, and the Persians alternated between persecuting them and leaving them alone. Several Nestorian theologians settled in Persia, where the Persian church heard their thoughts on the two natures of Christ and told them, “Yes, of course, we’ve believed that all along.” So Nestorians were readily absorbed into the local church there.
 
The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person!
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
 
Since you love Got Questions maybe you will listen to them.
When last did I quote from Got Questions?
His divine and human natures are completely distinct and separate. This idea is not scriptural, however, and goes against the orthodox Christian doctrine of the hypostatic union, which states that Christ is fully God and fully man in one indivisible Person. God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature yet remained fully God at the same time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
 
When last did I quote from Got Questions?

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You are more talented than this......

You must consider the hierarchy of the teaching. At the top is the entire "Persona/Person" of Jesus Christ. As such, the weakness of God is greater than .....

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God.

The English word "Persona" (absent the idea of an "actor") may help. Persona is more relative to Character.

ADDED -- to be clear. How a person "acts" is WHO they are. God never pretends. The actions of God speak for themselves. He never says and does not. Men do.
 
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1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Nothing there about a human person in fact it’s stating His Divinity that God became man, the Incarnation
 
Nothing there about a human person in fact it’s stating His Divinity that God became man, the Incarnation
Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Php_2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

In the four Gospels, there is ample evidence that Jesus was fully human since He was born to a human mother (Matthew 1:25), He experienced hunger (Matthew 21:18) and thirst (John 19:28). Jesus also experienced temptation (Matthew 4:1) pain and suffering (Matthew 16:21), and He died (Matthew (27:50)
Yes, Jesus was the God-man while in the womb of Mary. In Hebrews 10:5, a passage that refers to Christ, we read, “So when he came into the world, he said, “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.” The human body begins in the womb. This also fits with the gospel accounts which attribute Mary’s conception and pregnancy to the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit. That which was in Mary’s womb was spoken of as the “holy offspring” who “shall be called the Son of God.” While the Greek text of this verse, Luke 1:35, is difficult to translate, it literally says, “that which is begotten or conceived, is holy, he shall be called the Son of God.” Matthew adds to this truth when he wrote, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 1:20). This is immediately followed by the words, “She will give birth to a son and you will name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins” (1:21). The child in the womb of Mary was called the Son of God. He would be true humanity and undiminished deity united together in one person by the miracle of the virgin birth. Without the virgin birth He would have a sinful nature like us and would not have been qualified to become our substitute for sin. As true humanity, he could be our representative; as sinless humanity, he was qualified to die for our sins. Without the conception in the womb, he would not have been true humanity.

There was a Gnostic heresy not too many years after the birth of Christ that taught that Christ only came on the person of Jesus after his birth. Such a Jesus could not save us and would be no different from any other so-called religious leader who had sins of his own.


The importance of the humanity of Christ (thus, the incarnation) is underscored by the writer to the Hebrews in the second chapter of his epistle. He is writing of the superiority of Christ to the angels. In verses 6-8, he turns to Psalm 8, applying the verses which speak of the dignity and glory of man, in that he has been appointed to “rule over the works of Thy hands” (v. 7b). Not only is the writer using this psalm to speak of Christ, but to speak of Him who will reign as man. In verses 4 and 5 the author goes on to show that it was necessary for the Lord Jesus Christ to take on human flesh in order to minister to His brethren. The Messiah who was to reign, would do so as man.

In the 10th chapter of the epistle to the Hebrews the point is clearly made that the Lord Jesus, of necessity, had to add humanity to His deity:

Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me” (Heb. 10:5).

Do you see the importance of the incarnation to the future hopes of both Israelites and the church? The return of the Lord and the establishment of His kingdom will only occur for men when God does so as man. When our Lord added humanity to His deity, He did so for all eternity. It is as the God-Man that He will return and He will reign, and we with Him. Do away with the incarnation and both the purposes and the promises of God are worthless.

You have a good day.
 
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Question:

According to the Holy Bible Jesus manifested human traits not befitting God. For instance Jesus wept (cf. John 11:35), slept (cf. Mark 4:35), hungered and thirsted (cf. John 4:6-7). God doesn’t tire, doesn’t sleep, doesn’t thirst and doesn’t get hungry (cf. Psalm 50:7-13, 121:3-4; Isaiah 40:28). How then can Jesus be God?

Answer:

The above question and statements misunderstand or distort what the Holy Bible and historic Christianity teach about the Person of the Lord Jesus. According to the God-breathed Scriptures Jesus is the Son of God, the eternal Word who is God in nature. The Bible also teaches that the eternal Word became flesh and took on a real human nature (cf. John 1:1-3, 14; 1 John 1:1-3; Matthew 1:18-23).

What this basically means is that Christ is both God and man, having all the attributes belonging to both Deity and humanity at the very same time. Jesus is truly God in every way, and is also a real human being in every sense with the exception of sin. The things he experienced as man did not affect the integrity of his Deity, and yet at the same time his Divine abilities and qualities were not part of his human nature. He had (and continues to have) two distinct natures, two distinct sets of attributes simultaneously without either of them fusing in or mixing with the other.

Thus, since Jesus became a real human being he truly hungered and thirsted like all men. Yet since he is also truly God he is the Bread of Life and the Living Water:

"Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, "Give me a drink," you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.’ … Jesus said to her, ‘Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I WILL GIVE HIM will never be thirsty forever. The water that I WILL GIVE HIM will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.’" John 4:10, 13-14

"Jesus then said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God IS HE WHO COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN and gives life to the world.’ They said to him, ‘Sir, give us this bread always.’ Jesus said to them, ‘I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.’" John 6:35-38

"‘This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I WILL RAISE HIM UP on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, AND I IN HIM. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.’" John 6:50-58

"On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come TO ME and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."’ Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." John 7:37-39

And being a real human Jesus got tired and slept. Yet since he is also truly God, he is the very Rest and Comfort of all those who are weary:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30

That is why the Holy Bible has no problem portraying the Lord Jesus as truly human and also as true Deity, as the very Sovereign Sustainer of all creation:

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and IN HIM all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him," Colossians 1:15-22

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," Colossians 2:9

"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Hebrews 1:2-3

Now about Jesus weeping, Christ is only visibly expressing as a man what God himself feels over the plight of sin and human pain:

"The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, ‘I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.’" Genesis 6:5-7

"How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert!" Psalm 78:40

"Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations to which they will be carried captive, how I have been hurt by their adulterous hearts which turned away from Me, and by their eyes which played the harlot after their idols; and they will (C)loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed, for all their abominations." Ezekiel 6:9
"My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all. How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath." Hosea 11:8-9

Jesus is basically giving a human expression to God’s emotions, visibly revealing the very heart and deep compassions of God for the plight of fallen humanity.

To conclude, Jesus became a true human being and in so doing experienced the weaknesses, limitations, and temptations that are common to humanity with one sole exception; Jesus was absolutely sinless and perfect. Thus, the statements that speak of Jesus’ human limitations do absolutely nothing to refute the clear Biblical witness that Jesus was also God. The Holy Bible teaches that Jesus is God and man. It is not that Jesus has to either be God or man but that he is both God and man at the same time. What was true of his humanity didn’t apply to his Deity and vice-versa, i.e. as man he tired but as God his energy and power are infinite and inexhaustible.

The testimony of the Holy Bible is clear. It states both, that Jesus is the eternal Son of God (one of the Persons of the eternal Triune God), and that this eternal Word of God, who was involved in all of creation, by whom everything was created, and who sustains all of creation to this day, himself entered creation by becoming a human being.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. …The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3, 14

Does the Muslim or Christ objector really want to say: God is not able to become man? God cannot take on human nature? According to the Bible God is able to do more than many Muslims would want to give him permission for.
 
Where does the Bible say Jesus is a human person ?

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Where does it say he is not? When not speaking solely of his glorified present state?

You don't realize Jesus was not glorified when he made himself to be as a man?

Those who keep pounding home that He is God keep failing to see that He needed
to refuse that status in order to push you aside and take your place on the Cross.

The following tells you what I am now telling you....

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice,
“Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as
Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."
John 7:37-39​


Civic! You should pick that up real quick!
For you have no sin nature to resist with or try to distort what it says!

I wish I was like you. Having no sin nature.
I could learn the Word of God so much quicker that way,and be free from the dullness that the sin nature imparts when wishing to understand the Word of God...

grace and peace .................
 
Where does it say he is not? When not speaking solely of his glorified present state?

You don't realize Jesus was not glorified when he made himself to be as a man?

Those who keep pounding home that He is God keep failing to see that He needed
to refuse that status in order to push you aside and take your place on the Cross.

The following tells you what I am now telling you....

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice,
“Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as
Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."
John 7:37-39​


Civic! You should pick that up real quick!
For you have no sin nature to resist with or try to distort what it says!

I wish I was like you. Having no sin nature.
I could learn the Word of God so much quicker that way,and be free from the dullness that the sin nature imparts when wishing to understand the Word of God...

grace and peace .................
So you're appealing to the Resurrection?

I mentioned before, He lives by the power of God. Have you read that verse before?

Jesus was transfigured before the disciples..... what man has ever been able to do the same.

It really is amazing to me how your theology is such a contradiction to itself.
 
I realize that many of you probably think I'm some "liberal" theologian that supports a reckless life of sin with my theology. Fact is.... I'm not. I probably more conservative than most any of you can imagine. Probably more so that most anyone here in this forum.

I have always seemingly found myself attacked from all sides. I don't really "fit in" anywhere. I chose a long time to never make this a consideration in what I believe. Let the "chips fall where they may".....
 
Where does the Bible say Jesus is a human person ?

next
It doesn't say He is a human person but if He is going to be like us in all things, it means he must make Himself to be like He is a human person, if only for a limited time and as such, is subject to all the same limitations that we are.

We will have to wait for the second coming to see Christ walk this earth in the fullness of His divine personhood.
 
It doesn't say He is a human person but if He is going to be like us in all things, it means he must make Himself to be like He is a human person, if only for a limited time and as such, is subject to all the same limitations that we are.

Your point proves you're wrong.

We have referenced instances where Jesus Christ did things that a human can not do. Things only HE could do. By your own standard, you're misunderstanding what you read.

"like" is not identical. If He were identical, then He would sin like us. He never sinned. There is a difference between personally sinning and dying for sin. Not recognizing this difference is a huge part of your issue.
 
I'm not into saying that Christ has a Dual Personality schizophrenic condition. Therefore, that would be 0% human person and 100% God Person in my view. What would it be in your view?

So you agree that his kenosis is functional, not ontological, right? That would confirm that Christ was, is, and always will be for all eternity past and future the One God Person who is the Uncreated Word of God.
Honestly, how many times have we said Christ "functioned" solely as a man during the Incarnation?

I've given you my view so many, many times. The fact you are still asking what it is suggests to me you don't listen to try and understand the views of others.

Have a nice day.
 
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