sethproton
Active member
Did you read the verse I suggested John 17:5. I think it explains the 2nd question.
The Godhead: one God found in three distinct Persons.
- Thread starter Fool4Christ
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Fool4Christ
Active member
Ok, Let’s start with the concept of paradox. The prefix para means “alongside.” The root word here comes from the Greek dokeo, which means “to seem, to think, or to appear.” A paradox, then, is something that seems contradictory when we first encounter it; however, with further scrutiny, the tension is resolved. That's been my experience with the Trinity.
For others the real tension may occur when encountering mysteries and contradictions. We use the term mystery to refer to things we do not yet understand. We may believe a mystery is true, but we do not understand why it is true. For instance, we know that there is such a thing as gravity, but the essence of gravity remains something of a mystery to us. Even something as basic as motion, which we notice and utilize every day, defies an acute analysis. When we look at it philosophically, we have to say that there is a mysterious element to motion, and the same is true for many other things that we experience in our everyday lives.
For others the real tension may occur when encountering mysteries and contradictions. We use the term mystery to refer to things we do not yet understand. We may believe a mystery is true, but we do not understand why it is true. For instance, we know that there is such a thing as gravity, but the essence of gravity remains something of a mystery to us. Even something as basic as motion, which we notice and utilize every day, defies an acute analysis. When we look at it philosophically, we have to say that there is a mysterious element to motion, and the same is true for many other things that we experience in our everyday lives.
Wrangler
Well-known member
My experience and knowledge of the trinity is the opposite. Contradictions do not exist in reality.
The trinity is not a paradox but an inherently contradictory concept, like square circles. The more you scrutinize contradictions, the more you realize they are nonsense.
Fool4Christ
Active member
And yet here we are talking about them.
Ok, lets go with that. I think it is safe to say that we really do not how Jesus and His two natures function together. Likewise, when we come to the doctrine of the Trinity, we say, based on the revelation of Scripture, that there is a sense in which God is one and another sense in which He is three.
We must be careful to point out that those two senses are not the same. If they were the same, we would be espousing a contradiction unworthy of our faith. But they are different, and so the doctrine of the Trinity is not a contradiction but a mystery, for we cannot fully understand how one God can exist in three persons.
But the big question we must ask is this: Does the concept that is represented by the word Trinity appear in the Bible? All that the word Trinity does is capture linguistically the scriptural teaching on the unity of God and the tri-personality of God. Seeing these concepts in Scripture, we search for a word that accurately communicates them. We come up with the idea of “tri-unity,” three in oneness, and so we coin this term Trinity. It really is naive to object that the word itself is not found in Scripture if the concept is found in Scripture and is taught by Scripture.
Our view on this doctrine affects our views of other doctrines. If the Godhead does not consist of three persons equally divine and yet inseparably one, we must redefine one or more of those persons. Jesus may not be fully God, or if he is, he is a lesser deity than is the Father. The Holy Spirit is in some sense inferior to both the Father and the Son. The doctrine of the atonement is modified as well. Instead of a voluntary self-sacrifice by a member of the Godhead, it is something imposed on a human by God, and thus contains an element of injustice. And off one goes into the Penal substitution atonement view.
Wrangler
Well-known member
I don't say that at all. There is only one true God and that is Jesus's God. Does it make sense to you that God has a God?
Can you give one verse in Scripture that says anything like God is in a sense 3? Just one verse, please. No artificial synthesis.
sethproton
Active member
the word paradox does not carry the meaning that it will be figured out.
What seems to be a paradox, might be solved, but the sovlving is not part of the definition.
As far as the Bibilical use of the word "mystery" it means something God has not yet explained. There are several mysteries that have been explained in the new testament, like Christ indwelling us.
sethproton
Active member
Hebrews 1:8-9
But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
Therefore God your God has annointed you.
Wrangler
Well-known member
In other words, you are not able to produce a single verse that says anything like God is in a sense 3.
Wrangler
Well-known member
sethproton
Active member
you asked Does it make sense that God has a God? I answered that perfectly from the Bible
sethproton
Active member
Sorry, I don't watch videos, maybe you could make your point in a few words, yourself.
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Wrangler
Well-known member
Quoting the Bible does not answer my question one little bit since it was a personal question. Does it make sense to you that God has a God?
If you are implying the Bible is stating that God has a God, the vid refutes that. In short, Hebrews 1:8-9 is deliberating being misinterpeted in denying earlier verses in Hebrews that states God said "today" you have become my son, which means the son is not God but a creation of God. It is from this perspective that 1:8-9 must be interpretted.
Bronson
Active member
The Bible teaches that Jesus is really and truly God, the second person of the Trinity. And it teaches that amazing fact over and over again, in a vast number of ways. People sometimes think that the doctrine of the deity of Christ, that Jesus is God, is based on only a few passages that are controversial.
This doctrine is found over and over again in Scripture. It is pervasive. It is found on nearly every page of the New Testament in one way or other.
WE ARE writing] about the Word of Life [in] Him Who existed from the beginning, Whom we have heard, Whom we have seen with our [own] eyes, Whom we have gazed upon [for ourselves] and have touched with our [own] hands.
1 John 1:1.
Jesus is eternally God.
In the beginning was the Word…
Whenever the beginning was, wherever it was, whatever it might have been, Jesus—the Word—was already there. He had no beginning and He has no end. He is eternally God.
Jesus is equally God.
…and the Word was with God…
Jesus, the Word, was with God—equal to the Father and the Spirit.
This doctrine is found over and over again in Scripture. It is pervasive. It is found on nearly every page of the New Testament in one way or other.
WE ARE writing] about the Word of Life [in] Him Who existed from the beginning, Whom we have heard, Whom we have seen with our [own] eyes, Whom we have gazed upon [for ourselves] and have touched with our [own] hands.
1 John 1:1.
Jesus is eternally God.
In the beginning was the Word…
Whenever the beginning was, wherever it was, whatever it might have been, Jesus—the Word—was already there. He had no beginning and He has no end. He is eternally God.
Jesus is equally God.
…and the Word was with God…
Jesus, the Word, was with God—equal to the Father and the Spirit.
Eleazar
Member
@Bronson
The Christian God is triune. Christians are monotheists. We believe in the one true living God (Deut. 6:4; 32:39; Isa. 44:8; 1 Cor. 8:6). But that does not mean that all monotheists believe in the same God. And for some of us here's where the confusion comes into play. When we speak about God, we must relate his entire identity.
So, while attesting to the “singularity” and unity of the Godhead, we also affirm just as strongly the triunity of the Godhead (Matt. 28:19). The God who is one is at the same time three in persons. We embrace both “the One” and the “Splendor of the Three,” echoing Gregory of Nazianzus, who famously wrote:
No sooner do I conceive of the One than I am illumined by the Splendor of the Three; no sooner do I distinguish Them than I am carried back to the One. When I think of any One of the Three I think of Him as the Whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking of escapes me. I cannot grasp the greatness of That One so as to attribute a greater greatness to the Rest. When I contemplate the Three together, I see but one torch, and cannot divide or measure out the Undivided Light.
In the Godhead, there are three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But God is one, and this one God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We cannot deny this doctrine of the Trinity. We must hold to the unity of the divine essence (i.e., God’s “whatness,” or being) as well as the distinction of persons.
The Bible attributes deity to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit:
1. The Father (Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3–4; 1 Pet. 1:3)
2. The Son (Acts 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13)
3. The Holy Spirit (Ps. 95:3, 8–9 [cf. Heb. 3:7–11]; Acts 5:3–4)
Because the Scriptures ascribe divinity to three persons but also plainly affirm that there is one God, Christian theologians in the early church spoke of what has become the Christian theological term Trinity. What is abhorrent to Jews and Muslims is most precious to Christians. We have a Triune God.
The Christian God is triune. Christians are monotheists. We believe in the one true living God (Deut. 6:4; 32:39; Isa. 44:8; 1 Cor. 8:6). But that does not mean that all monotheists believe in the same God. And for some of us here's where the confusion comes into play. When we speak about God, we must relate his entire identity.
So, while attesting to the “singularity” and unity of the Godhead, we also affirm just as strongly the triunity of the Godhead (Matt. 28:19). The God who is one is at the same time three in persons. We embrace both “the One” and the “Splendor of the Three,” echoing Gregory of Nazianzus, who famously wrote:
No sooner do I conceive of the One than I am illumined by the Splendor of the Three; no sooner do I distinguish Them than I am carried back to the One. When I think of any One of the Three I think of Him as the Whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking of escapes me. I cannot grasp the greatness of That One so as to attribute a greater greatness to the Rest. When I contemplate the Three together, I see but one torch, and cannot divide or measure out the Undivided Light.
In the Godhead, there are three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But God is one, and this one God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We cannot deny this doctrine of the Trinity. We must hold to the unity of the divine essence (i.e., God’s “whatness,” or being) as well as the distinction of persons.
The Bible attributes deity to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit:
1. The Father (Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3–4; 1 Pet. 1:3)
2. The Son (Acts 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13)
3. The Holy Spirit (Ps. 95:3, 8–9 [cf. Heb. 3:7–11]; Acts 5:3–4)
Because the Scriptures ascribe divinity to three persons but also plainly affirm that there is one God, Christian theologians in the early church spoke of what has become the Christian theological term Trinity. What is abhorrent to Jews and Muslims is most precious to Christians. We have a Triune God.
sethproton
Active member
Does the Bible make sense to me? Not always. But it is the source of truth, always, even when I cannot understand.
You are claiming that I am intentionally misrepresenting what Hebrews 1:8-9 means.
But I am taking it literally for what it says. the Son is God and His Father is God.
Also I assume you are quoting Psalm 2:7 and Acts 13:33.when you write, today you become my son. That is a misquote. Both say you ARE my son, the Today part is the begotten.
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sethproton
Active member
yes, this is Christianity
Wrangler
Well-known member
No. I am claiming that trinitarians are. Most people go along without questioning the apparent contradictions.
Another poster claimed I am JW. Untrue. Over the years, I have observed most trinitarians never actually consider how far their faith is required to stretch from the absolute best example of crystal clarity from the OT where God himself wrote the 10 Commandment in stone. I do not believe such a God, setting the standard for clarity in the days of old requires us is modern times to embrace intellectual contortion to "see" how trinitarianism is in the monotheist text. This totally goes against Paul telling us that mystery is finally revealed - not shrouded ever deeper.
For instance, only the Father is identified as God in Scripture. Indeed, every Epistle equates the two. There is no 'god the son' or 'god the holy spirit' in Scripture. That's good enough for me.
And the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once! That's definitely good enough for me.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
There was this passage that says the Holy Spirit will bring back to remembrance things said by God. These remembrances tend to happen as we experience life. Those who experience a parable of the Trinity, believe in the Trinity. Those who experience a parable of Modalism, will agree to a description of Modalism. What we experience frames our understanding, and with that understanding, we read and understand.
sethproton
Active member
I belive I undersatnd. You are asking for a parlour trick where a single Bible verse declares your concept. So refuse to accept that Hebrews teaches both the father and Son are God.. What happened to line upon line, concept upon concept?
sethproton
Active member
why are you argung with me, against what I have stated from scripture as if I have embraced some trinitarian group.
How does that make a good chat? Argue against my post but not against what I said?
