No Israelite from the Jewish religion that does not do this-Matt 23:39--has a chance with God.
The Doctrine of a "Fall" is a Lie
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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jeremiah1five
Active Member
Incorrect. The only Israel when the promises were made was natural Olive tree Israel. Spiritual Olive tree Israel didn't exist until the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL came down from heaven and inaugurated the New Covenant era of the Jewish Feast of Harvest in Jerusalem circa AD 34.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Salvation is NOT of works. No one merits salvation as you say above.
Now lets look at your Scripture:
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:39.
By being in covenant with God all Israel is saved, has been saved, and shall be saved. God keeps His promises made to Israel and to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Jacobs twelve sons and their descendants.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion,
And unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
My spirit that is upon thee,
And my words which I have put in thy mouth,
Shall not depart out of thy mouth,
Nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
Nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD,
From henceforth and for ever.
Isaiah 59:20–21.
It's a done deal.
brightfame52
Active Member
No its correct. All the promises were made to the Church, the Body of Christ as they were always one with Christ Gal 3:16,29
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
29 And if ye be Christ's[His church], then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I don't know who you listen to--Matthew 23:38-39 are the words of Jesus--one best believe them. Jesus assures the house of Israel( Religion)- your house is abandoned to you= cut off of being Gods chosen---unless they do verse 39. They outright refuse to this day.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The Church is Israel. "Church" is the Greek word meaning "called out [ones]." Israel is the Church in the Old Testament. They were "called out" of Egypt.
Galatians 3:28-29 and the whole letter was written to Jews. This concern among the Jewish Christians who became Christ followers was their concern if they were STILL Abraham's seed. As Jewish men, yes, they were. Saul lays their worry to bed when He says, "If ye be Christ's then are ye STILL Abraham's seed.
It cannot refer to Gentiles for Gentiles do not come from Abraham's loins/seed. They come from the seed of Ham and Japheth. Abraham's seed ALWAYS refer to Hebews.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The reason why "their house was desolate" (meaning the Temple) was because Christ was not in it.
brightfame52
Active Member
They rejected the one God sent to them, and sent him to his death out of hate filled hearts=the last straw. They are cut off. But how great a love for Jehovah and Jesus to leave an open door for them to bless him, but they will not. Its their own fault.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Saul specifically was addressing those "under the Law" and "under a schoolmaster" which was the Law of Moses. Only Jews were under the Law and only Jews were the seed of Abraham. If you are honest with Scripture, it's not difficult to discern Saul addressing the Jews' concerned with their standing in the Abraham Covenant now that they were followers of Jesus. They knew they were of the seed of Abraham. They were followers of Abraham. But now they were also followers of Jesus - through the Spirit baptism - and Saul addressed their confusion and worry by saying, "if ye be Christ's ye are STILL Abraham's seed and heirs of the Promise(s) (of Abraham.)
Saul was not addressing these words to non-Hebrew Gentiles. But that's the fallacy and error of those that insert "Gentiles" into Saul's words. Gentiles are the furthest thing from Saul's mind.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
How can you be so hateful to even say such a thing that the Jews hated Jesus? Multitudes flocked to Him, called Him "Lord" and "Master" and "Christ" and "Prophet" and "Teacher."
You seem to forget that while there may have been hundreds and thousands of Jews and mixed heritage Jews attending this Passover and the coming Feast of Harvest, there were over a million and more Jews and mixed heritage Jews who knew nothing about Jesus' arrival and the things going on in Jerusalem who lived in Gentile lands. These were the Diaspora. And while they knew nothing of Jesus' arrival and the things He did, they were in no way in a position to receive or reject Jesus but had continued every day as the day before that awaiting upon God's Promise to send a deliverer "like unto Moses." They couldn't "reject" Jesus because they knew nothing of Jesus at all.
But after the Feast of Harvest was complete the Jews that visited from Asia Minor, and from the east (Mesopotamia), and from northern Africa who were among the three thousand who were born-again returned to their homes and synagogues testifying of this "Jesus" and what they witnessed of the Holy Spirit and with an outline of Peter's sermon and were the first carriers of what they experienced and what was told them about this "rabbi" and "teacher" from Nazareth whom the people received as their Messiah, Lord, and King. What did Pilate order to be hung on Jesus' cross? A placard saying, "This is Jesus, King of the Jews." I doubt the people rejected Jesus. But no matter for their presumed "astonishment" and "wagging of their heads" about Jesus was included in the sins of Israel that Jesus atoned after He (Jesus) initiated the New Covenant in His blood at Jesus' last Passover before His death - and resurrection.
Jeremiah's prophecy of a New Covenant between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah was a covenant that included forgiveness of Israel's sins yet a covenant that did not contain any mechanism of atonement upon which God could base His forgiveness of Israel's sins. That mechanism within the New Covenant was tied to the Ceremonial Law of the Mosaic Covenant and the sacrifice of the lamb commanded by God in the Mosaic Covenant. The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. The mechanism upon which God could forgive Israel's sins is tied to the Ceremonial Law and the substitutionary sacrifice carried out by Jesus the Lamb OF GOD. And just as the lamb was slain under the Law to atone for the sins of the children of Israel, so, too, was Jesus sacrificed in place of the animal to atone for the sins of the children of Israel as told by the angel Gabriel:
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 1:21.
And this He did even if millions of Jews never heard of Jesus who were living scattered across Gentile lands and among the Gentile people. Millions of Jews living in these lands against only thousands of Jews present at the crucifixion is of no significance for Jesus died to atone for the sins of ALL Jews living and dead and also never yet been born.
brightfame52
Active Member
Its the Church comprised of all ethnicities
John 7:7--John 15:19, 22-25)--He as well told the Israelite leaders-- They were liars and their Father was the devil--- They tried many x to kill him--out of hate filled hearts.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Only where the non-Hebrew ethnicity is joined to a Hebrew ancestor. Samaritans are a mixed heritage Hebrew. Then you have those Jews of the two southern kingdom tribes mixed with non-Hebrew Gentiles whom the Jews call "Gentiles" because they lived in Gentile lands and grew up Gentile in a Greek culture. But if they are seed of Abraham, they are still heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:28-29.)
jeremiah1five
Active Member
7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. John 7:7.
The world are identified as non-Hebrew Gentiles. Christ would never say this to one of His beloveds. Israel is God's betrothed. No real man hates his body. And the Hebrew people are the body of Christ.
Let's see your other passages:
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. John 15:19.
Again, speaking about His elect. These Hebrew people are not of the (non-Hebrew) Gentile world. The non-Hebrew world is the enemy of God.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 15:21–25.
This refers to the religious leaders who were in covenant with God and also the object of God's love and Christ's atonement for their sin. This was the reason why God sent Jesus to Israel. John called Him the lamb OF GOD who took away their sin under the Law dying in the place of the animal which was sacrificed under the Law for the sins of the children of Israel. The Hebrew people were under the Law, and a people God loves.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Deuteronomy 7:6–8.
God loves the Hebrew people and God hates the non-Hebrew world. But if a Hebrew was of mixed heritage then the Lord would love that person for the sake of His servant Abraham. The covenant is between God, Abram the Hebrew, and Abram's Hebrew seed. God was the one who authored Israel's scattering among the non-Hebrew Gentile world. He knew they would "mingle with the goyim and learn their ways." But this was the only way to bring non-Hebrew Gentiles into covenant salvation with God. There are millions of mixed heritage Hebrews of Jew-Gentile descent that are Abraham's seed and therefore heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:28-29.) One such person who was the offspring of a non-Hebrew woman and a Hebrew man: Obed.
Obed was the son of Ruth (a non-Hebrew Moabite) and Boaz who was Hebrew. Obed was a Hebrew-Gentile son, a mixed heritage son who is a great-great-great-great-grandfather of Jesus bar Joseph.
Obed is an ancestor of Jesus Christ, making him one of Jesus' forefathers in the royal line of David.
While Obed was the grandfather of King David (Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David), he is many generations removed from Jesus. The Bible records Obed in both genealogies of Jesus.
Forgiving the Hebrew people and seed of Abraham are the people whom God will forgive (their sin) as part of the New Covenant. The mechanism for their salvation was the Ceremonial Laws instructing Israel in the sacrificing of animals to temporarily atone for Israel's sins until a more permanent and suitable sacrifice would be provided who would permanently atone for the sins of the Hebrew children of Jacob (Israel.) And Jesus Christ died under the Law to atone for the sins of the Hebrew people under the Law and in covenant with God.
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.
brightfame52
Active Member
False and stop your worship of the flesh
One wants to see another dead out of a hate filled heart.
Yes Jehovah sent his son to save Israel--ISRAEL rejected him. Thus Jehovah and Jesus reject them. He left the door open to them as i have shared. They refuse to walk through.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
That's a false accusation. Don't forget, the Holy Spirit dwells within me and what you tell me, you're telling Him.
Abram married his stepsister, Sarai. They had a child together and named him Isaac. He was full Hebrew.
Isaac also married within his family and both Esau and Jacob were full Hebrew.
God's covenant with Abram the Hebrew was extended to his Hebrew seed, or children. While we know Jacob married within his family also, he did have children with his wives two servants and there is no information they were of Hebrew stock or not. But if they were Hebrew then the covenant was extended to Jacob's children, and they were Hebrew. If the two wives' servants were not Hebrew then the covenant still extends to them because these children were still Abram's biological seed. So, full Hebrews and mixed heritage Hebrews are in covenant with God as long as they are Abram's DNA (seed.)
The Mosaic Covenant was between God and the descendants of Jacob and his twelve sons and their wives. They are identified in the Law, Psalms, and the Prophets as the children of Jacob, or Israel. This covenant was in effect right through and beyond Jesus' birth. Jesus lived as a Hebrew being Hebrew. Before His crucifixion Jesus gathered His twelve Hebrew disciples and observed the Passover. During this meal and the observing of the memorial of God delivering the Hebrew people out of their bondage in Egypt, Jesus established a new covenant in His blood and through His death that was established with twelve Hebrew men, who were also representative of the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel. This was a covenant Jesus said, was, "for you", (the twelve disciples and their represented tribes of the twelve sons of Jacob. Jesus was sent to fulfill promises made by God to the children of Israel. Jesus lived as a Hebrew and taught His people the Law of God. Jesus died under the Law and fulfilled the Law of Moses on all points of doctrine and command and died as substitute for the animal that would die under the Law to atone the sins of the children of Israel. The animals the high priest sacrificed in worship of God sprinkled the blood upon the Hebrew people. There is nothing the blood of the offered animal was ever made to atone for the sins of anyone who was not of the seed of Abram, and this means no non-Hebrew Gentiles were ever atoned by the animal sacrificed according to the Law of Moses. Thus, Jesus died to atone the sins of the Hebrew people ONLY.
The New Covenant described and prophesied by Jeremiah is between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes.) In it, God is said to "forgive the sins of Israel" but does not contain a mechanism for that forgiveness such mechanism which is part of the Mosaic Covenant in the Ceremonial Laws. By Jesus dying while under one Covenant and to join that covenant to the New Covenant, itis clear that God uses the sacrificial system of atonement for sins commanded in the Mosaic Covenant for the Hebrew people.
In short, the New Covenant established by Jesus while under the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant by which God used the Mosaic Covenant to establish the New Covenant between Him (God) and the House of Israel and the House of Judah. On the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest God sent the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL by Joel, and begins the indwelling of that Spirit within the Jewish people and that day saw the inauguration of the New Covenant where three thousand Jews and mixed heritage Jews were "born-again" by the Holy Spirit of God who was Promised to Israel in the prophecies by Joel.
The New Covenant era began on that day in Israel and among the Jews. Every day from that day forward thousands of Jews were being born-again and baptized into the body of Jesus Christ. So begins the New Covenant era.
In time, as more Jews were being saved, they studied the Hebrew Scripture to interpret the "new thing" God more fully was doing among the Jews and found their answers in the Hebrew writings contained in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. The acts by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL were being understood through application of passages of Scripture and promises by God in the Old Testament. These things were being discussed among the Jews and Jewish Christians - and even the elders of the Sanhedrin who came to faith - and letters were written to the various Jewish churches in Asia Minor, in Jerusalem, and in parts including Egypt and Mesopotamia containing the results of their studies. In time their understanding of the New Covenant established by Jesus Christ and inaugurated by the Holy Spirit upon the Hebrew people ONLY are with us today.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Salvation does not rest on Israel and what it believes or doesn't believe as the New Covenant described by Jeremiah declares. The salvation that is of the LORD is a salvation that is of the Jews. The New Covenant merely describes God saving Israel based upon the pleasure of His good pleasure and based upon the covenants He made spread out through the centuries. Israel did not "reject" Jesus and there is nothing in the New Covenant writings that state this. The people merely did not react to halt the acts of the religious leaders as they sought Rome's permission to condemn this innocent man on a Roman cross. There may have been thousands of Jews in Israel at that time to observe the Passover, there were millions of Jews and mixed heritage Jews who lived in Gentile land who never knew of Jesus arrival nor of His death on a Roman cross, so by definition they were never in a position to "accept" or "reject" Jesus as presented by the LORD. The bottom line is that God saves through covenant and every Hebrew and mixed heritage Hebrew ever born was atoned by Jesus Christ, who as High Priest before God, offered Himself in their stead to atone their sins.
Belief or unbelief, acceptance or rejection do not figure in the LORD'S salvation as all sins of Israel's past, present, and future were atoned by Jesus Christ that day. He did not die to make salvation possible, instead, when He died, He actually saved His people that day. He declared the plan for Israel's salvation that day as "Finished."
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26–27.
Belief or unbelief, accepting or rejecting have nothing to do with Israel's salvation for all sins have been atoned by Jesus Christ the day He died on His cross.
His resurrection from the dead proves God's salvation of Israel completed.
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brightfame52
Active Member
The Holy Spirit isnt going to lead anyone to put confidence in the flesh for salvation, Ethnicity is of the flesh as Paul pointed out Phil 3:4-5
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
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