The Discovery of Hidden Mystery Against OSAS

My saviour did not simply provide a way. My saviour actually saves. He does not try, he actually does. Thats the difference between our theologies. I was given to the Son by the Father from the foundation of the world. So were you, assuming your a geniune believer.
You wouldn't know about Jesus and that He came to take away our sin from our sin nature making it no longer sinful if it wasn't for the writings from the apostles. Again, the Father gave the apostles to the Son for this reason from before the foundation of the world, not us. We had a choice, and actually need to abide in Him for Him to abide in us.

Do you believe you have a sin nature? If not, why? If yes, why?
 
You wouldn't know about Jesus and that He came to take away our sin from our sin nature making it no longer sinful if it wasn't for the writings from the apostles. Again, the Father gave the apostles to the Son for this reason from before the foundation of the world, not us. We had a choice, and actually need to abide in Him for Him to abide in us.

Do you believe you have a sin nature? If not, why? If yes, why?
So the "us" in Ephesians 1 is the apostles?
 
Yes. It was to them the mystery of His will was given for them to teach to us. It was the apostles who first trusted in Christ in verse 12. THEN in verse 13 Paul adds the Ephesians who ALSO...
So he was writing to the apostles that were in Ephesus at the time? The letter is addressed to the apostles alone? So silly.
 
So he was writing to the apostles that were in Ephesus at the time? The letter is addressed to the apostles alone? So silly.
It was written to those in Ephesus but those who first believed as quoted were the Apostles which Paul includes himself in the opening of the book then makes the distinction between them and the Ephesian believers.

Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.

The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it applies to the Apostles who were given the knowledge, wisdom, the mysteries revealed to them by ejection / predestination not the gentiles in Ephesus.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

( Now Paul goes from we the apostles to them the gentile Ephesians. The apostles were the first to believe with wisdom from God and not prays for them to have the same wisdom they have)


13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

conclusion: the predestined group ( Jewish Apostles ) were the first to believe and were given all wisdom, understanding knowing the mystery of His will. The gentiles ( you, them ) were not the first to believe until way later after Paul was sent to them after Acts 13. They were prayed for by Paul as a group to be blesses with wisdom, knowledge, enlightenment so they may know ( they did not know at that time) and did not know the mysteries like the group in 1:3-12. Paul is making the distinction between the Apostles and who he is writing to like he does in most of his other letters in the introduction of this letter.

hope this helps !!!
 
So he was writing to the apostles that were in Ephesus at the time? The letter is addressed to the apostles alone? So silly.
Not to, about.

First was his greeting to the Ephesians. "To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus"

Next is his credentials as one of the apostles.

Then in 13 he adds the Ephesians.

Presby, are you given any mysteries to write about and add to Scripture for the rest of us? "having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. NO! There is no new Scripture! Were you among the first to trust in Christ? "12that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. NO!

But here we are in 13. "13In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"

Answer this. Who are the "us" in verse 9 above, and who is the "we" in verse 12. And who is the "you" in 13? If you open your mind and set aside all doctrines about predestination, you might have learned something. Don't you know that the false doctrines about predestination that are taught is blasphemy. Not only do you have others beside the apostles being predestined by God, but it only follows that God predestines others to be damned. That is blasphemy as it is against the character of God! It is the will of God that NONE should perish.
 
It was written to those in Ephesus but those who first believed as quoted were the Apostles which Paul includes himself in the opening of the book then makes the distinction between them and the Ephesian believers.

Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.

The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it applies to the Apostles who were given the knowledge, wisdom, the mysteries revealed to them by ejection / predestination not the gentiles in Ephesus.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

( Now Paul goes from we the apostles to them the gentile Ephesians. The apostles were the first to believe with wisdom from God and not prays for them to have the same wisdom they have)


13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

conclusion: the predestined group ( Jewish Apostles ) were the first to believe and were given all wisdom, understanding knowing the mystery of His will. The gentiles ( you, them ) were not the first to believe until way later after Paul was sent to them after Acts 13. They were prayed for by Paul as a group to be blesses with wisdom, knowledge, enlightenment so they may know ( they did not know at that time) and did not know the mysteries like the group in 1:3-12. Paul is making the distinction between the Apostles and who he is writing to like he does in most of his other letters in the introduction of this letter.

hope this helps !!!
Nobody believed before the apostles? And your making this up. The "us" is clearly he as well as the believers at Ephesus.
 
Not to, about.

First was his greeting to the Ephesians. "To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus"

Next is his credentials as one of the apostles.

Then in 13 he adds the Ephesians.

Presby, are you given any mysteries to write about and add to Scripture for the rest of us? "having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. NO! There is no new Scripture! Were you among the first to trust in Christ? "12that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. NO!

But here we are in 13. "13In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"

Answer this. Who are the "us" in verse 9 above, and who is the "we" in verse 12. And who is the "you" in 13? If you open your mind and set aside all doctrines about predestination, you might have learned something. Don't you know that the false doctrines about predestination that are taught is blasphemy. Not only do you have others beside the apostles being predestined by God, but it only follows that God predestines others to be damned. That is blasphemy as it is against the character of God! It is the will of God that NONE should perish.
The saints are the apostles alone right?

Your the one claiming you know something the rest of Christianity missed for 2000 years. Not I. Where did you come up with this cooky theory?
 
Respectfully, I lean towards a hermeneutic on the side of inclusion of saints rather than exclusion of saints in God-breathed messages (scripture). [When God made promises to Abraham, they were for all the saints and not just Jesus … as an example]. So, too Romans and Ephesians as letters to, for and about all the saints (Jews and gentiles, male and female, rich and poor … no respecter of persons) not just SOME people who are now dead.

YMMV.
 
Respectfully, I lean towards a hermeneutic on the side of inclusion of saints rather than exclusion of saints in God-breathed messages (scripture). [When God made promises to Abraham, they were for all the saints and not just Jesus … as an example]. So, too Romans and Ephesians as letters to, for and about all the saints (Jews and gentiles, male and female, rich and poor … no respecter of persons) not just SOME people who are now dead.

YMMV.
Not everything in the bible applies to everyone. Hermeneutics 101. :)
 
Not everything in the bible applies to everyone. Hermeneutics 101. :)
Everything DOESN’T NOT apply to us, either.
(but I didn’t study Hermeneutics in Engineering college … I just had to read the Bible for myself and trust God meant what God said) ;)
 
I don't believe its true in the sense that...

I am saved always to heaven hands down forever. (I do hope to make it to heaven and go be with God.)

I do believe all people are saved from satan, death, sin, hell... however not everyone is saved to the kingdom of heaven because that takes faith.

And some people can leave the faith they have if they so choose to.

To say otherwise is just irrelevant... cause its founded in the bible, all you gotta do is read it for yourself... and you find these themes throughout it, especially in Revelation 21,22.
 
Ephesians 1 [ESV]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

  • Paul wrote the letter.
  • Paul is an Apostle (that means “one sent”) of Jesus Christ.
  • Paul is writing to the SAINTS in Ephesus.
  • (Since the letter was included in the Bible, I am going out on a limb and ASSUME it still applies to the SAINTS.)
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • At the risk of sounding “Pentecostal” … I claim that grace and peace for my family of saints living today. ;)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

  • No fancy hermeneutics, but a lot of English Literature tells me that “us” means “us”.
  • I feel blessed (not my place to speak for you, but Paul and I would love to have you join “us” in receiving blessings “in Christ”).

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.

  • “we/our/us” … I have redemption through his blood, forgiveness of trespasses and grace lavished on me … so I see no reason to feel excluded from “we/our/us”.
  • I am “in him”.

… as I claimed, no fancy college hermeneutics, just faith that God meant what God said.
 
The saints are the apostles alone right?

Your the one claiming you know something the rest of Christianity missed for 2000 years. Not I. Where did you come up with this cooky theory?
The letter was written to the saints at Ephesus as said in the salutation. They are like you and me. Paul then clarified who he was through verse 12 before verse 13's addition of the Ephesians.

Are you sure you read all of my post and what I put in bold? We are not still writing new Scripture as you seem to believe.
 
The saints are the apostles alone right?

Your the one claiming you know something the rest of Christianity missed for 2000 years. Not I. Where did you come up with this cooky theory?
Not 2,000 years; just the last 500 years since the false doctrines that came out of the Reformation. And no, I'm not RCC or Orthodox. The Reformationists also didn't bring forward another important truth that the RCC had right. That is what the Scriptures shows in 1 John 5:16-17, the two types of sin. Sins unto death they call mortal sins, and sins NOT unto death they call venial sins. In the Old Testament there was a sacrifice available to cover sins not unto death, unintentional sins, but NO SACRIFICE available for sins unto death. They did just that. They stoned them. Reformationists lump them all together with the doctrine that "sin is sin." Which caused Martin Luther to blasphemously write that even if we/Christians willfully commit murder and adultery (both commandments of God and sins unto death) they wouldn't separate us from God. Wrong. No one born again of the Spirit can commit sins of lawlessness, so those claiming to be Christians who murder and commit adultery are damned.
 
In the Old Testament there was a sacrifice available to cover sins not unto death, unintentional sins, but NO SACRIFICE available for sins unto death. They did just that. They stoned them.
David … Bathsheba … Uriah the Hittite … adultery … murder … who stoned David?

(A “sin unto death” was: Lev 10:1-3 [ESV] Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, which he had not commanded them. And fire came out from before the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD has said: 'Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.'" And Aaron held his peace. … there is no point in an offering, they are dead! The sin led to death.)

Again in the NT (a sin leading to death): Acts 5:1-6 [ESV] But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him. … there is no point in an offering, they are dead!
 
David … Bathsheba … Uriah the Hittite … adultery … murder … who stoned David?

(A “sin unto death” was: Lev 10:1-3 [ESV] Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, which he had not commanded them. And fire came out from before the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD has said: 'Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.'" And Aaron held his peace. … there is no point in an offering, they are dead! The sin led to death.)

Again in the NT (a sin leading to death): Acts 5:1-6 [ESV] But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him. … there is no point in an offering, they are dead!
David repented, but his baby did die in his place didn't he. Can't you see that God will not be mocked. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
 
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