The Calvinist Understanding of the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints

[Nadab]

The Calvinist Understanding of the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, the "P" in Tulip.

I want to be sure to represent the Calvinist position accurately and so I will cite explicit statements from several Calvinistic sources that define the doctrine.

Wayne Grudem
“The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives.”

R. C. Sproul
“A simple way to remember the essence of the doctrine of perseverance is to learn this ditty: ‘If we have it, we never lose it. If we lose it, we never had it.’ This is a ‘cute’ way of affirming that full and final apostasy is never the lot of the Christian. Another short-hand expression of this doctrine is the aphorism ‘Once saved, always saved.’”

The Westminster Confession of Faith
They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Millard Erickson
“The Christian, kept by the grace of God, will successfully endure all the trials and temptations of this life, and remain true to the Lord until death.”

Louis Berkhof
“They who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to a state of grace, can never completely fall from that state and thus fail to attain eternal salvation.”

Anthony Hoekema
“Those who have true faith can lose that faith neither totally nor finally. . . . Can a person who has true faith ever lose that faith? To this question, the person of Reformed persuasion says: No.”

Augustine
“As [God] works so that we come to him, so he works that we do not depart. . . . So, by the work of God we are caused to continue in Christ with God. Thus, it is by God’s hand, not ours, that we do not depart from Christ.”

R. Keasley
“True believers will certainly keep their faith to the end through all tests and temptations, and will finally come into their heavenly inheritance.”

John Murray
“[This] means that the saints, those united to Christ by the effectual call of the Father and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will persevere to the end.”

What are your thoughts on this Doctrine?

 

[360watt]

The Calvinist Understanding of the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, the "P" in Tulip.

I want to be sure to represent the Calvinist position accurately and so I will cite explicit statements from several Calvinistic sources that define the doctrine.

Wayne Grudem
“The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives.”

R. C. Sproul
“A simple way to remember the essence of the doctrine of perseverance is to learn this ditty: ‘If we have it, we never lose it. If we lose it, we never had it.’ This is a ‘cute’ way of affirming that full and final apostasy is never the lot of the Christian. Another short-hand expression of this doctrine is the aphorism ‘Once saved, always saved.’”

The Westminster Confession of Faith
They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Millard Erickson
“The Christian, kept by the grace of God, will successfully endure all the trials and temptations of this life, and remain true to the Lord until death.”

Louis Berkhof
“They who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to a state of grace, can never completely fall from that state and thus fail to attain eternal salvation.”

Anthony Hoekema
“Those who have true faith can lose that faith neither totally nor finally. . . . Can a person who has true faith ever lose that faith? To this question, the person of Reformed persuasion says: No.”

Augustine
“As [God] works so that we come to him, so he works that we do not depart. . . . So, by the work of God we are caused to continue in Christ with God. Thus, it is by God’s hand, not ours, that we do not depart from Christ.”

R. Keasley
“True believers will certainly keep their faith to the end through all tests and temptations, and will finally come into their heavenly inheritance.”

John Murray
“[This] means that the saints, those united to Christ by the effectual call of the Father and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will persevere to the end.”

What are your thoughts on this Doctrine?

Well, if this was really about once saved always saved..even those who weren't continuously faithful to the end, would still be saved.

Calvinism 'back loads ' works into salvation.

Salvation is pure and simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ to receive eternal salvation. It isn't a commitment to good works for Jesus.

We can only commit to good works AFTER conversion.

Once saved always saved does not equal 'perseverance of the saints'... OSAS is 'preservation of the saved'

Before conversion there is nothing behaviour wise that would lead to salvation from the person being convicted by God. It is all Jesus' work...not the person believing.

But they do need to believe..they aren't saved before belief.

John 3:16, 5:24, Romans 5:8, Romans 10, Titus 3:5.

 

[civic]

The major problem with tulip is primarily the ULI. Those are what cause the major divisions.

 

[Diserner]

What are your thoughts on this Doctrine?

One of Satan's favorites.

Thankfully only about 1/3 or less of current Christians have succumbed to this nonsense.

For more see my posts here: https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eternal-security.145/

 

[Frank Russell]

What are your thoughts on this Doctrine?

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. (Jude 1:24-25)

It seems to reveal an argument in modern days where one side is undermining what the bible says God is able to do, while the other entertains the notion and continues to debate.

The counter argument (implying God is not able) appears to be part of a suite of beliefs that cause a believer to doubt the existence of God (subconsciously) causing a form of separation that Paul was convinced to be impossible. (Romans 8:38-39)

 

[Overjoyed]

Well, if this was really about once saved always saved..even those who weren't continuously faithful to the end, would still be saved.

Calvinism 'back loads ' works into salvation.

Salvation is pure and simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ to receive eternal salvation. It isn't a commitment to good works for Jesus.

We can only commit to good works AFTER conversion.

Once saved always saved does not equal 'perseverance of the saints'... OSAS is 'preservation of the saved'

Before conversion there is nothing behaviour wise that would lead to salvation from the person being convicted by God. It is all Jesus' work...not the person believing.

But they do need to believe..they aren't saved before belief.

John 3:16, 5:24, Romans 5:8, Romans 10, Titus 3:5.

I believe eternal security and perseverance of the Saints are different. I like the way you described it.

 

[JonC]

I once believed these things, but have found out calvinists are all wrong. I only use the bible now, and sometimes I quote from leighton Flowers

 

[Nadab]

I once believed these things, but have found out calvinists are all wrong. I only use the bible now, and sometimes I quote from leighton Flowers

Yes, I believe if one sticks to the Bible you will not go wrong. I will have to learn about Mr. Flowers.

 

[Whosoever]

The Calvinists say we are eternally saved because saved man will persevere and endure to the end. The Bible says we are eternally saved by God's grace, But it is because God hangs on to us. it is not because we are trying to hang on to God.

I like what @Ahar had to say here: "Perseverance of the Saints" Sounds like something we have to do as in works of the flesh. On the other hand "Eternal Security" Sounds more like God is the one keeping us secure. https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eternal-security.145/post-2288

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing,
Jude 24
Well I believe the Salvation is eternal because God hangs on to us and not because we hang on to him. I think the following verses makes it clear.
28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
John 10:28–29
The LORD directs the steps of the godly. He delights in every detail of their lives.
Though they stumble, they will never fall, for the LORD holds them by the hand.
Ps 37:23–24

So according to those verses it is God who is hanging on to us and not us who are hanging on to him. Here's an illustration of that point.

Have you ever taken your child when they were small and just learning how to walk by the hand and together you go out for a stroll? They would try to hang on to your hand, but when they stumble they would lose their grip and fall. But if you hang on to their hand the only way they would fall is for you to fall. The only way a True Believer will fall is for God to fall and that is impossible. God will not let go of his grip and you are not going to fall or lose your Salvation.

There is the little misunderstanding of an expression used in the Bible where it says "enduring to the end"

and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 10:22

But he who endures to the end will be saved
Matthew 24:13
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved
Mark 13:13

The enduring to the end that is being talked about in these passages is referring to saving their natural lives and not referring to the saving of their souls.

So we can see clearly that the saving that comes from endurance is referring to the natural life of the believer. The same goes for the phrase no flesh should be saved. It's not a reference to the salvation of the soul. The salvation of the soul is instant and forever.

So the main thing to remember when it comes to eternal security is that God is hanging on to us and not us hanging on to God. A comforting promise in Scripture is that God will never leave those who are His. Hebrews 13:5

 

[Diserner]

So we can see clearly that the saving that comes from endurance is referring to the natural life of the believer.

This interpretation never made any sense to me.

Christ said he who loves his life in this world will lose it, and always preached about the willingness to die for his sake.

It makes ZERO sense for Christ to suddenly endorse the selfish grasping of staying physically alive in this world.

 

[synergy]

Once saved always saved does not equal 'perseverance of the saints'... OSAS is 'preservation of the saved'

I agree and more to the point:

• The P in TULIP is Preservation of the Elect.
• OSAS is Preservation of the Saved.

 

[Whosoever]

This interpretation never made any sense to me.

Christ said he who loves his life in this world will lose it, and always preached about the willingness to die for his sake.

It makes ZERO sense for Christ to suddenly endorse the selfish grasping of staying physically alive in this world.

Jesus doesn’t want you miserable. He wants us to see that He is the treasure hidden in a field, worth everything in order to attain it. This is what John 12:25 means. If we cling to our life as if it has supreme value, then we’ll end up as a dead seed never planted. But if we see that Christ is supremely valuable, then we will lose our life in Him. We will, as verse 26 says, follow Jesus — even if it means death or loss of material things. Our life will be spent in service to Christ. And the Father will always honor this. We will not be lonely seeds, but rather fruit bearing trees.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The Calvinist Understanding of the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, the "P" in Tulip.

I want to be sure to represent the Calvinist position accurately and so I will cite explicit statements from several Calvinistic sources that define the doctrine.

Wayne Grudem
“The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives.”

R. C. Sproul
“A simple way to remember the essence of the doctrine of perseverance is to learn this ditty: ‘If we have it, we never lose it. If we lose it, we never had it.’ This is a ‘cute’ way of affirming that full and final apostasy is never the lot of the Christian. Another short-hand expression of this doctrine is the aphorism ‘Once saved, always saved.’”

The Westminster Confession of Faith
They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Millard Erickson
“The Christian, kept by the grace of God, will successfully endure all the trials and temptations of this life, and remain true to the Lord until death.”

Louis Berkhof
“They who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to a state of grace, can never completely fall from that state and thus fail to attain eternal salvation.”

Anthony Hoekema
“Those who have true faith can lose that faith neither totally nor finally. . . . Can a person who has true faith ever lose that faith? To this question, the person of Reformed persuasion says: No.”

Augustine
“As [God] works so that we come to him, so he works that we do not depart. . . . So, by the work of God we are caused to continue in Christ with God. Thus, it is by God’s hand, not ours, that we do not depart from Christ.”

R. Keasley
“True believers will certainly keep their faith to the end through all tests and temptations, and will finally come into their heavenly inheritance.”

John Murray
“[This] means that the saints, those united to Christ by the effectual call of the Father and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will persevere to the end.”

What are your thoughts on this Doctrine?

It's nothing but "Just another paradigmatic version of OSAS". Generally a Christian is MORE SECURE that the "One strike and your out" churches teach (Like the Assemblies of God), and LESS secure than the OSAS Churches teach (Like BAptists). If it was IMPOSSIBLE to fall out of grace, there wouldn't be Biblical warnings against it.

 

[Diserner]

Jesus doesn’t want you miserable.

Yeah, I'm not seeing physical salvation there at all, sorry.

21 "Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. (Matt. 10:21-22 NKJ)

Endures to the end of the persecution—either in death or the 2nd coming.

 

[Whosoever]

Yeah, I'm not seeing physical salvation there at all, sorry.

21 "Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. (Matt. 10:21-22 NKJ)

Endures to the end of the persecution—either in death or the 2nd coming.

No problem I'm probably not explaining it very well. I'll try it little different approach.

Like why doesn't God just take us home when we accept Jesus. My thoughts would be we're supposed to be here spreading the gospel, Planting the seed. That's what the scripture is about that you brought up, John 12:25

Jesus compared His death to a grain of wheat falling into the soil and perishing. Only after a kernel dies in the ground can new life sprout from it. Jesus knew that obedience to His Father’s call would cost Him everything. He would soon die on a cross. Yet He also understood that His death would “produce much fruit” by making it possible for multitudes of believers to be born again and receive eternal life

The apostles lost their lives traveling around sharing the gospel. It’s not really “hating your life” that leads to eternal life, though. Anybody could be miserable. We’re not necessarily in a better position for discipleship just because we’ve become disenchanted with all the blessings of this world. But rather what leads to eternal life is seeing the supreme worth of Jesus.

 

[Aeliana]

No problem I'm probably not explaining it very well. I'll try it little different approach.

Like why doesn't God just take us home when we accept Jesus. My thoughts would be we're supposed to be here spreading the gospel, Planting the seed. That's what the scripture is about that you brought up, John 12:25

Jesus compared His death to a grain of wheat falling into the soil and perishing. Only after a kernel dies in the ground can new life sprout from it. Jesus knew that obedience to His Father’s call would cost Him everything. He would soon die on a cross. Yet He also understood that His death would “produce much fruit” by making it possible for multitudes of believers to be born again and receive eternal life

The apostles lost their lives traveling around sharing the gospel. It’s not really “hating your life” that leads to eternal life, though. Anybody could be miserable. We’re not necessarily in a better position for discipleship just because we’ve become disenchanted with all the blessings of this world. But rather what leads to eternal life is seeing the supreme worth of Jesus.

Like the apostle Paul, We can save our lives here, “Whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ” Philippians 3:7–8

 

[armylngst]

Well, if this was really about once saved always saved..even those who weren't continuously faithful to the end, would still be saved.

The understanding is, if they aren't continuously faithful to the end, they may not have been saved in the first place. Some early church fathers did not go as far as pushing an understanding that if one dies in sin, but once appeared to be saved, they may not have been saved in the first place. Jesus doesn't say that He once knew them, and then forgot them, but that He NEVER knew them.

Calvinism 'back loads ' works into salvation.

Not true.

Salvation is pure and simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ to receive eternal salvation. It isn't a commitment to good works for Jesus.

That is also not true. The reason it is not true is because you are burning a strawman. Part of becoming saved is the death of the old man, and a new life. That new life is, Ephesians 1, living a holy and blamesless life. A simple way of looking at it is, if you are/claim to be a child of God, act like it. Lordship salvation, from John MacArthur, is not as some have presented it. He spoke to the extreme on only certain aspects. It just means that part of becoming a Christian, and being a believer, is taking up our cross and following Him, as He commanded. We aren't going to be perfect, but our lives should show us becoming more and more like Christ, not more and more like the world. We also should not continue to appear to be the world.

We can only commit to good works AFTER conversion.

Splitting hairs. If you don't commit to good works, can you claim to have been converted?

Once saved always saved does not equal 'perseverance of the saints'... OSAS is 'preservation of the saved'

That is one thing I would disagree with RC Sproul on. Once saved always saved is better linked to those who preach cheap grace. As long as you can say you once were saved, go ahead, dance with the devil in the pale moonlight. Since you were once saved, you are always saved. Feel free to live as you like. That is wrong.

Before conversion there is nothing behaviour wise that would lead to salvation from the person being convicted by God. It is all Jesus' work...not the person believing.

That is true. However, part of being saved is putting oneself under Christ, even as it is by God's/the Holy Spirit's work.

But they do need to believe..they aren't saved before belief.

Again, I would say splitting hairs.

John 3:16, 5:24, Romans 5:8, Romans 10, Titus 3:5.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What are your thoughts on this Doctrine?

Why would there be Biblical warnings against what could never happen??

 

[armylngst]

Why would there be Biblical warnings against what could never happen??

Why not? Are you going to say that you have the understanding of God, that you understand the reasoning behind warnings? Perhaps it is so God can look at them and say, you were warned, therefore you have no excuse. That holds, even if they would ever be incapable of heeding the warning. The warning is still there. The possibility of acting different didn't disappear simply because they didn't act differently, or they could not. If you put a Nascar on a track and every corner was an intersection, they would still turn left and never right. Does that right turn cease to exist? I mean, a general response would be that it is stupid to put that right turn there. However, there was a reason, and it might be the most intelligent reason in the world. However, one says it is stupid because one does not know/understand the actual reason.

Here is a question for you. Is it a good argument/logical argument to say that if Calvinism is right, then God is evil? What if Calvinism is right? Will you go up to God and tell Him He is evil? Or will you all of a sudden realize that there are other options/conclusions? That perhaps we don't have all the information. The reason why I hate this argument is that the person making the argument holds God hostage. If you say that you are right, then you are saying God is evil. What if the person saying Calvinism is right, is right? Is God going to accept the other person saying, well I didn't know/understand? WHY USE GOD IN THE FIRST PLACE?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Here is a question for you. Is it a good argument/logical argument to say that if Calvinism is right, then God is evil?

Since "Calvinism" is nothing more than "Just another theological system", which has some things accurate, and some error, then in practical terms, it's simply unimportant.

God, of course is NOT Evil, and nothing in "Calvinism" would lead one to believe that HE was (other than man's STUPID OPINIONS about what "Good, and EVIIL is).