So there is limited agreement that Jesus is God and not a full consensus? Too much wishy-washyness for my taste.
The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Thanks for the clarification, which I appreciate a lot.
The rationale of my post on John 8: 23 was not to debate on the deity of Christ in this thread, but about the misuse of that verse to justify that people who don't believe in the deity of Christ cannot be forgiven by God.
To me, these are two very different debates.
There are many doctrinal errors you and I can uphold, that do not preclude God from forgiving our sins.
We can certainly discuss in depth John 8:23 in the Trinity sub-forum, perhaps opening a new thread altogether, because I've not found a specific thread that addresses forgiveness of people not believing in the Trinity. All threads I've seen deal on whether Trinity is true or false.
Whatever Jesus has inspired in you and me (repentance, love, faith, perseverance, kindness, purity of heart, etc) He has already done it and will continue to do during our lives, regardless of whether we are right or wrong concerning his deity.
To me, God is the only and ultimate Savior, who sends saviors. For example, the Bible says that God sent Israel a savior, Jehoahaz (2 Kings 13:5)
God is the only and ultimate Shepherd, who sends shepherds. God is the Ultimate Merciful, who sends merciful people.
So, if we were to ask " In the parable of the Good Samaritan, who saved the wounded man left on the side of the road?
We could answer "God". We could answer "The good Samaritan". We could answer "God through the Good Samaritan".
All three answers could be true, depending on what we are trying to address.
civic
Well-known member
It was vague
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
This webpage contains articles written by regular Baha'is like me. So it is not meant to be authoritative in doctrine, but certainly it is very useful to approach what we believe.
The main body of the article focuses on who Jesus said He was. Since Jesus didn't said He was God, that is not mentioned.
In the introduction and end paragraph, the writer briefly presentes what our Sacred Writings say about the Manifestations of God.
The last paragraph is particularly enlightening:
"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare, ’I am God!’ He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world…”
Since obeying Christ is obeying God, since Christ is The Word, the Truth manifested audibly and visually to men, Christ could have said "I am God" and He would have been right, because in practice, that is what a Messenger of God does. He speaks on behalf of God, as if God Himself were speaking.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Because there no such thing.
Of course the distinction in Christ is his very divinity itself. We see that Jesus is distinct from the prophets that came before. This appears in the parable of the vineyard owner in Matthew 21:33-46. Also note that if God's own people were rejecting him and were judged, how would God accept people following other religions and the associated gods?
People who are condemned by God will not enjoy eternal life with him.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
My friends civic and @synergy
It may sound vague to your ears because you are used to think in terms of doctrinal certainties.
To be "right" about his deity (among other doctrines) may be for many of your congregations a matter of life or death.
This is not the case for Baha'is.
We understand that Jesus Christ was not God metaphysically, but for all practical, didactic purposes he is God for those who want to follow God's will. That's what the Word does in manifesting in flesh. The Word is God because it comes from God, and God could not be known without His Word. Following the analogy, the light is not the sun, but without light we would have not known the existence of the sun. So, for practical purposes, the sunlight is the sun.
We settle down with such understanding, because we think in Revelation in terms of education or instruction to enable us to be prepared to become a person ready for genuine good deeds. Indeed, Paul thought in a similar way about Revelation (2 Tim 3:16,17)
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Let's think: What was wrong with rejecting a prophet in the past? Let's say, Jonah, Isaiah, etc.
Well, rejecting a prophet was bad because it meant rejecting the Message of God. What did it mean to reject the Message of God? Remain doing evil things. Same with Jesus: Rejecting Jesus meant rejecting the Message of repentance and love God conveyed through him. Remain being a slave of evil.
Please notice that in the parable of the vineyard owner (Matthew 21:31-46), all messengers, including the son, are sent with the same mission (ie, to require the workers what was the owner's right). The fact that the last messenger was the son, did not change the mission. They mission was to convey a message and trigger a good response. Reject the messenger meant showing a bad response.
This goes in line with Baha'i understanding that the gospel is eternal, and has been the same across history in its essence. It is about submitting to God, the Creator. (Revelation 14:6,7)
(Certainly, we don't believe that prophets sent to Israel were Manifestations of God, like Jesus. Since Moses, who "founded" Israel as a nation, no other Manifestation of God appeared until Jesus, who Moses foresaw)
Hosanna
Well-known member
What I find notable about this thread is how members of BAM are able to engage each other in a civil conversation even though we have different beliefs. Good job
I followed this link Bahá’í Reference Library and it looked pretty official.
I followed this link Bahá’í Reference Library and it looked pretty official.
Indeed what you have shared is that Christianity does not match with Baha'i Faith and just not be subsumed under some single-god concept equal among all religions. The message of repentance was for the Israel people not following God. They had to accept Christ as the way, the truth and the life. No one else provides that. Thus, also, as contrary to Baha'i Faith, the path of eternal life did not come until Christ's death and resurrection. Even if some people had faith that was toward God before that, they were the rare ones.
So, the Baha'i Faith may claim to be all things to all people, but it is not compatible with God, the Bible, and their message.
That civility to all religions is because the Baha'i Faith claims to be all things to all people. That contrasts with the narrow path described by Christ Jesus. They have the leeway from God to act in their own beliefs but that is not helpful in general when it clashes with what God has given through Christ. Contradictory beliefs of various religions cannot be glossed over to assume they all say the same thing.What I find notable about this thread is how members of BAM are able to engage each other in a civil conversation even though we have different beliefs. Good job
I followed this link Bahá’í Reference Library and it looked pretty official.
Hosanna
Well-known member
I just found this book at Logos Bible Study Software. Should be very helpful.
Jesus through Middle Eastern Eyes: Cultural Studies in the Gospels, Kenneth E. Bailey
Logos | The Most Complete Bible Study Platform
Jump into Logos and experience the most powerful bible study platform that will equip you to go deeper into scripture so you will know the Word like never before.
www.logos.com
i skimmed through the last chapter which is about Luke 20:9-18. Bailey seems to mess up the controversy somewhat. The leaders Jesus contests had not produced the fruit of the vineyard and thus could not give God what is due God. However, somewhat agreeing with Baily, the parable is probably against the leaders, but could be all the people. Somewhat contrary to Bailey, this does not exclude the Isaiah 5 judgment from happening at the same time. Bailey misses that Israel was in its time of judgment. That is a big part of why Jesus warned them of repentance.I just found this book at Logos Bible Study Software. Should be very helpful.
Jesus through Middle Eastern Eyes: Cultural Studies in the Gospels, Kenneth E. Bailey
Logos | The Most Complete Bible Study Platform
Jump into Logos and experience the most powerful bible study platform that will equip you to go deeper into scripture so you will know the Word like never before.
It is interesting that the people hearing this thought the vineyard owner was the bad one. This indeed would fit the normal expectation of a message condemning the behavior of the rich. The people's response then was in accord with their expectation that Jesus's message was to condemn the rich. Instead, Jesus shows the parable is the people in opposition to God.
You mentioned "Manifestations of God". Let's look at the multiple times in the Old Testament where God manifested Himself (Theophanies) and how the Angel of the Lord is in fact the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ. Below is an excellent verse-by-verse presentation of what the Old Testament revealed about the multiple Theophanies of the Pre-Incarnate Jesus who referred to Himself multiple times as the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
Please forward any Baha'i material that explicitly acknowledges these facts which in turn cripples the Muslim version of Jesus as not God.
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The Christians will be the people despised by the tolerant unified humanity. It will be unacceptable to note Christ's unique divine nature contrasting all other proposed key figures of the various religions.
Correct. My interest here is how could the Baha'i possibly unify the Christian Biblical belief that Jesus is God with all other beliefs that claim that He is not God? It warps the mind
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
And you'd be absolutely WRONG.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The harmony across religions in its essential message cannot and should not be glossed over, mikesw
If such harmony didn’t exist, you wouldn’t be able to build a school or a highway within time and budget with your Muslim and Mormon coworkers, as this requires sharing the same values of honesty, truthfulness and kindness. You woudln’t be able to enjoy yor work and learn from ecah other and become friends. You wouldn’t get prepared to build better schools and highways in the future.
You call to highlight the differences.
I call to highlight the similarites.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Good morning, Bob.
I see in your photo profile that you play the banjo. I love the sound of banjo in American country and folk music. .I play just a bit of guitar, but I play mostly the piano.
I’ll pray for you today, Sunday, thanking God for the gift of your existence in this forum and asking Him to pour on you and your family all blessings He has in store for you and them.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Good point, synergy
Indeed, beliefs cannot be unified. However, believers can be unified.
The Cause of Bahaullah focus on such unity.
Let me give you an example: you may have a family whose members hold different beliefs, and still grow as a loving family.
Baha’is were never encouraged to marry only other Baha’is. On the contrary, Interfaith marriages are very common on the basis of the shared values coming from God.
It is a contradiction to say that a tolerant humanity will despise a religious group.
Nobody will mind whether you think Christ is God or not. They will mind about having the “mind of Christ” or not.
