Runningman
Active Member
It's about salvation. Jesus had to be judged just like everyone else will be because he isn't God. 1 Timothy 3:16 proves it. This is all over the New Testament, but I am sure no one has showed it to you.
The "Atheist Dilemma"
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360watt
Active Member
Okay ..if we back up a bit into 1 Timothy 3:15.. what do we see?
The church of the living GOD. And more references to God...
Therefore following logically on to vs 16.. it is God manifest in the flesh. Or the 'He' in newer translations.. is also following verse 15 in reference to God.
1 Timothy 3:14-15 KJV
These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: [15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
This is the preceding context. Therefore vs 16 is also about God.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
And what about YOUR preferred translation? You better get on you study glassses because even your choice has made
changes from pre-1950.
The Watchtower’s own earlier publications worshipped Jesus exactly the way the Bible describes — before they changed their translation.
1. Pre-1950 Watchtower Literature (Their Own Words)
- Zion’s Watch Tower, July 15, 1898, p. 216“Question: Was [Jesus] ever worshipped?Answer: Yes… the worship which they gave was accepted by our Lord.”
- The Watch Tower, November 1, 1912, p. 335“All the holy apostles and all the holy angels worship the Lord Jesus Christ.”
- The Watch Tower, May 15, 1939, p. 151“The resurrected Jesus… received worship from his disciples.”
They literally taught Jesus was and should be worshipped for decades — using the same Greek word proskyneō that appears in Matthew 28:9, John 9:38, etc.
2. Then in 1950 They Released the New World Translation
Suddenly they changed proskyneō to “do obeisance” whenever it’s given to Jesus, but kept “worship” when it’s given to the Father or (ironically) to Satan (Rev 13:4).
3. NOW, HERE IS A QUESTION YOU NEED TO ANSWER.... AND BE HONEST ABOUT IT.
“Why did the Watchtower teach for 70 years that Jesus was rightly worshipped… and then in 1950 suddenly claim the Bible was mistranslated the whole time? Was the Holy Spirit guiding them to teach worship of Jesus from 1879–1949… and then guiding them to stop?”
" Why did your organization change doctrine and then change the Bible to match?
4. EXPLAIN THIS One Verse Even the NWT Can’t Hide, and the footnote.....
Hebrews 1:6
- Greek: προσκυνεῖν (proskyneō — same word everywhere)
- All major translations: “Let all God’s angels worship him” (the Son).
- NWT (2013): “Let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
But look at the footnote in their own Kingdom Interlinear Translation (purple book):It literally says the Greek word means “worship.”
So even your own interlinear admits it’s “worship” —
Bottom-Line
“Your organization used to teach that Jesus was worshipped — and they were right. They changed the doctrine, then changed the Bible to match the new doctrine.But the Greek text hasn’t changed in 2,000 years.Jesus accepted worship then, and He still does.”
"And if you are going to say they found out about the RCC.... don't. In nearly 2000 years someone on your side should have been able to learn Greek and seen the truth. Or better yet, get a real Greek to become a JW and do it.
As to the NWT Fredrick Franz was the only member of the New World Translation committee with some knowledge of Greek, having studied it for two years, while the other translators had little to no formal training in the language. Most of the committee members had only a high school education and were not qualified in biblical languages.
And you are trusting your eternity to a man with only 2 years to study Greek and no one else.?
The following is from "Christian Forum" and had been provided by their member Kiwi
Link is provided and if you are opposed to the trut of what they say then join there and dispute it.
JW - NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek
NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s...
www.christianforums.com
NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek
The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s opinions. The FORWARD of the New World Translation in 1961 edition, on page 5 states, "It is a very responsible thing to translate the Holy Scriptures from their original languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, into modern speech ... The translators who have a fear and love of the divine Author of the Holy Scriptures feel especially a responsibility toward Him to transmit his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible." Have their translators been responsible? Are they true to the original languages?
The men that comprised the Translation Committee were not even Greek scholars qualified to translate the Bible. These men were: N.H. Knorr, F. W. Franz the 4th President, A.D. Schroeder, G.D. Gangas and M. Henschel (write to Personal Freedom Outreach, P.O. Box 26062, St. Louis, Missouri 63136 for paper documentation). All met together in these translation sessions. The translation committee requested that the names of the translators remain secret even after their deaths (Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, p. 258).
Franz was asked in a courtroom in Scotland, "Why the secrecy?" he said, "Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto." The attorney replied, "Writers of books and translators do not always get glory and honour for their efforts, do they?" (Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham, M.P., P.C., Scottish Court of Sessions, p. 92 Nov. 1954).
In 1954, in a Scotland trial, Fred Franz, then head of the Watchtower Editorial Board, admitted that he himself was the one who had checked the accuracy of the translation and recommended its publication. (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.88.)
The following is from the trial transcript: -
(Q): Insofar as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
(A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Later, Franz was asked about his own involvement in the translating(Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham
Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.92)
(Q) : Were you yourself responsible for the translation of the Old Testament?
( A ) : Again I cannot answer that question...
Here, under oath, Franz refused to confirm or deny he was the translator of the Hebrew text. Why wouldn't he say that he did not translate the Old Testament? The court also wondered "why" and asked (ibid)
(Q): Why the secrecy?
(A): Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto.
Why is it the writers of the New Testament books identified their authorship by their names, we know they were not seeking honor.
The facts speak for themselves. The real reason would be that the translators could not be checked since they had no qualifications and anyone investigating this could not find anyone to assume responsibility for the translation. A shrewd plan indeed.
According to Raymond Franz, only Fred Franz had "sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew." Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983).
Not one of the men had ever studied Greek, and wouldn't know the difference between an alpha or a omega. Only three of the five had even finished high school. Of those three only one went on to College. His name was Fredrick Franz, the same man who became the President of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He did begin at the University of Cincinatti but only completed two years. He then dropped out of College after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. He does not have even the most basic college degree, and certainly does not possess a degree for advanced study of the Bible. In fact, outside of the Watchtower circle Franz is not recognized by anyone as a scholar.
As M. James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and historian, has written, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man-Frederick Franz." M. James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985),
The men who make up the "translation committee" were self-appointed men lacking any adequate schooling or background in biblical languages unable to function as Bible Translators. Their purpose was not to translate the Scripture into a modern version of the Bible but to justify their theology to their people and have ammunition against Christianity as it is practiced today.
The New World Translation is a fabrication with no scholarship involved. It was specifically created to make the Bible agree their preconceived theology. It was made for their people to believe WT doctrine and uphold their false belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel not God.
Corrections were made all along the way. Just like had to be done all through the bible.And what about YOUR preferred translation? You better get on you study glassses because even your choice has made
changes from pre-1950.
The Watchtower’s own earlier publications worshipped Jesus exactly the way the Bible describes — before they changed their translation.
1. Pre-1950 Watchtower Literature (Their Own Words)
- Zion’s Watch Tower, July 15, 1898, p. 216“Question: Was [Jesus] ever worshipped?Answer: Yes… the worship which they gave was accepted by our Lord.”
- The Watch Tower, November 1, 1912, p. 335“All the holy apostles and all the holy angels worship the Lord Jesus Christ.”
- The Watch Tower, May 15, 1939, p. 151“The resurrected Jesus… received worship from his disciples.”
They literally taught Jesus was and should be worshipped for decades — using the same Greek word proskyneō that appears in Matthew 28:9, John 9:38, etc.
2. Then in 1950 They Released the New World Translation
Suddenly they changed proskyneō to “do obeisance” whenever it’s given to Jesus, but kept “worship” when it’s given to the Father or (ironically) to Satan (Rev 13:4).
3. NOW, HERE IS A QUESTION YOU NEED TO ANSWER.... AND BE HONEST ABOUT IT.
“Why did the Watchtower teach for 70 years that Jesus was rightly worshipped… and then in 1950 suddenly claim the Bible was mistranslated the whole time? Was the Holy Spirit guiding them to teach worship of Jesus from 1879–1949… and then guiding them to stop?”
" Why did your organization change doctrine and then change the Bible to match?
4. EXPLAIN THIS One Verse Even the NWT Can’t Hide, and the footnote.....
Hebrews 1:6
- Greek: προσκυνεῖν (proskyneō — same word everywhere)
- All major translations: “Let all God’s angels worship him” (the Son).
- NWT (2013): “Let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
But look at the footnote in their own Kingdom Interlinear Translation (purple book):It literally says the Greek word means “worship.”
So even your own interlinear admits it’s “worship” —
Bottom-Line
“Your organization used to teach that Jesus was worshipped — and they were right. They changed the doctrine, then changed the Bible to match the new doctrine.But the Greek text hasn’t changed in 2,000 years.Jesus accepted worship then, and He still does.”
"And if you are going to say they found out about the RCC.... don't. In nearly 2000 years someone on your side should have been able to learn Greek and seen the truth. Or better yet, get a real Greek to become a JW and do it.
As to the NWT Fredrick Franz was the only member of the New World Translation committee with some knowledge of Greek, having studied it for two years, while the other translators had little to no formal training in the language. Most of the committee members had only a high school education and were not qualified in biblical languages.
And you are trusting your eternity to a man with only 2 years to study Greek and no one else.?
The following is from "Christian Forum" and had been provided by their member Kiwi
Link is provided and if you are opposed to the trut of what they say then join there and dispute it.
JW - NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek
NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s...
NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek
The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s opinions. The FORWARD of the New World Translation in 1961 edition, on page 5 states, "It is a very responsible thing to translate the Holy Scriptures from their original languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, into modern speech ... The translators who have a fear and love of the divine Author of the Holy Scriptures feel especially a responsibility toward Him to transmit his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible." Have their translators been responsible? Are they true to the original languages?
The men that comprised the Translation Committee were not even Greek scholars qualified to translate the Bible. These men were: N.H. Knorr, F. W. Franz the 4th President, A.D. Schroeder, G.D. Gangas and M. Henschel (write to Personal Freedom Outreach, P.O. Box 26062, St. Louis, Missouri 63136 for paper documentation). All met together in these translation sessions. The translation committee requested that the names of the translators remain secret even after their deaths (Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, p. 258).
Franz was asked in a courtroom in Scotland, "Why the secrecy?" he said, "Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto." The attorney replied, "Writers of books and translators do not always get glory and honour for their efforts, do they?" (Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham, M.P., P.C., Scottish Court of Sessions, p. 92 Nov. 1954).
In 1954, in a Scotland trial, Fred Franz, then head of the Watchtower Editorial Board, admitted that he himself was the one who had checked the accuracy of the translation and recommended its publication. (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.88.)
The following is from the trial transcript: -
(Q): Insofar as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
(A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Later, Franz was asked about his own involvement in the translating(Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham
Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.92)
(Q) : Were you yourself responsible for the translation of the Old Testament?
( A ) : Again I cannot answer that question...
Here, under oath, Franz refused to confirm or deny he was the translator of the Hebrew text. Why wouldn't he say that he did not translate the Old Testament? The court also wondered "why" and asked (ibid)
(Q): Why the secrecy?
(A): Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto.
Why is it the writers of the New Testament books identified their authorship by their names, we know they were not seeking honor.
The facts speak for themselves. The real reason would be that the translators could not be checked since they had no qualifications and anyone investigating this could not find anyone to assume responsibility for the translation. A shrewd plan indeed.
According to Raymond Franz, only Fred Franz had "sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew." Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983).
Not one of the men had ever studied Greek, and wouldn't know the difference between an alpha or a omega. Only three of the five had even finished high school. Of those three only one went on to College. His name was Fredrick Franz, the same man who became the President of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He did begin at the University of Cincinatti but only completed two years. He then dropped out of College after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. He does not have even the most basic college degree, and certainly does not possess a degree for advanced study of the Bible. In fact, outside of the Watchtower circle Franz is not recognized by anyone as a scholar.
As M. James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and historian, has written, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man-Frederick Franz." M. James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985),
The men who make up the "translation committee" were self-appointed men lacking any adequate schooling or background in biblical languages unable to function as Bible Translators. Their purpose was not to translate the Scripture into a modern version of the Bible but to justify their theology to their people and have ammunition against Christianity as it is practiced today.
The New World Translation is a fabrication with no scholarship involved. It was specifically created to make the Bible agree their preconceived theology. It was made for their people to believe WT doctrine and uphold their false belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel not God.
Holy spirit guided the NWT. Gods scholarship is all they needed.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Oy
John 20:17--Jesus has a God just like us. Why wont you believe him over false dogmas?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I believe His dad.
His dad... God the Father said.....
Hebrews 1:8 i God talking about Jesus because Jesus is his only Son.
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
So if Jesus has a God just like us..... His dad Jehovah regards Jesus as also God.
And do not pull the NWT fake translation out because the Watchtower translated it initially as
Hebrews 1: 8 Corruption in the NWT
the watchtower translates this verse like this: . but about the son, he says: “god is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. - hebrews 1: 8 nwt.
The Watchtower translates this verse like this:
Hebrews 1: 8 Corruption in the NWT
But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. - Hebrews 1: 8 NWT
But it should read like this:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. - KJV
Why did the Watchtower change this verse?
It matters not which way is correct... God still calls Jesus God.
Your Heb 1:8 is error--Heb 1:4 proves it. Catholicism changed it to fit their false trinity god teaching.I believe His dad.
His dad... God the Father said.....
Hebrews 1:8 i God talking about Jesus because Jesus is his only Son.
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
So if Jesus has a God just like us..... His dad Jehovah regards Jesus as also God.
And do not pull the NWT fake translation out because the Watchtower translated it initially as
Hebrews 1: 8 Corruption in the NWT
the watchtower translates this verse like this: . but about the son, he says: “god is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. - hebrews 1: 8 nwt.www.jehovahs-witness.com
The Watchtower translates this verse like this:
Hebrews 1: 8 Corruption in the NWT
But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. - Hebrews 1: 8 NWT
But it should read like this:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. - KJV
Why did the Watchtower change this verse?
It matters not which way is correct... God still calls Jesus God.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Oh no you dont... The link that talks of the Watchtower Society and this very verse
And do not pull the NWT fake translation out because the Watchtower translated it initially as
Hebrews 1: 8 Corruption in the NWT
the watchtower translates this verse like this: . but about the son, he says: “god is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. - hebrews 1: 8 nwt.The Watchtower translates this verse like this:
But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. - Hebrews 1: 8 NWT
But it should read like this:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. - KJV
Why did the Watchtower change this verse?
So you are admitting the Watchtower is affiliated with the RCC....
Does not surprise me.
It matters not which way is correct... God still calls Jesus God.
Heb 1:4= Jesus was = to angels until God gave him a name above theirs.--Psalm 45:7= Companions( partners) = angels.Oh no you dont... The link that talks of the Watchtower Society and this very verse
And do not pull the NWT fake translation out because the Watchtower translated it initially as
Hebrews 1: 8 Corruption in the NWT
the watchtower translates this verse like this: . but about the son, he says: “god is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. - hebrews 1: 8 nwt.
www.jehovahs-witness.com
The Watchtower translates this verse like this:
But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. - Hebrews 1: 8 NWT
But it should read like this:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. - KJV
Why did the Watchtower change this verse?
So you are admitting the Watchtower is affiliated with the RCC....
Does not surprise me.
It matters not which way is correct... God still calls Jesus God.
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