The Acts 2 church
- Thread starter civic
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Truther
Well-known member
Do it just in case you are wrong and Peter was right....
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ...
Don't gamble with this, because the stakes are high.
Truther
Well-known member
They heard it...
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord....
Get your fingers out of your ears and open your eyes.
Complete
Well-known member
'And they prayed, and said,
Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men,
shew whether of these two Thou hast chosen,'
(Act 1:24)
* The Holy Spirit confirmed the choice in his reference to them as, 'The Twelve' in Acts 6:2.
'Then THE TWELVE called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said,
It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.'
(Act 6:2)
Beginning from the baptism of John,
unto that same day that He was taken up from us,
must one be ordained to be a witness with us of His resurrection.
(Act 1:22)
Hello @Fred & @Nadab,
I am glad that @Fred rounded off this little aside. For it was not possible for Paul to be included among the twelve. for he did not meet the criteria necessary of a witness of all that the Lord said and did during His earthly ministry, nor did he witness the resurrection and ascension of Christ. He himself always made a distinction between himself and the twelve. Their ministry was that described in Hebrews 2:3-4, being 'them that heard Him' :-
'How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
.. God also bearing them witness,
.... both with signs and wonders,
...... and with divers miracles,
........ and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
.......... according to His Own will?
(Heb 2:3-4)
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Complete
Well-known member
Hello @civic,
The Lord did not come to found a church, but to be, ' a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to CONFIRM the promises made unto the fathers.' (Rom. 15:8) . His message was not regarded; and the record of the four gospels tells us how the kingdom was rejected, and the King crucified. The ministry of The twelve' confirmed His Word (Hebrews 2:3-4). The call was to the nation of Israel to come to repentance, for upon their repentance hangs the promise of the Lord's return.
'Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive
until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken
by the mouth of all His holy prophets
since the world began.'
(Act 3:19-21)
* The day of the Lord had indeed drawn nigh. God's call, through Peter was, 'Save yourselves from this untoward generation'.
* Our Lord is 'the foundation stone' of (Isaiah 28:16 ). and 'the rejected stone' of (Psalm 118:22). ' Upon this rock', said the Lord. He 'will' (future) 'build His church' (Matthew 16:18). 'Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God'. This statement of God, spoken by Peter is the foundation upon which the Lord would build His Church (assembly). That referred to in Psalm 22:22, 25 & ch. Defined as 'Israel' and the 'Remnant' in Romans 9:25-27).
'As He saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people;
and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass,
that in the place where it was said unto them,
Ye are not my people;
there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel,
Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
a remnant shall be saved:'
(Rom 9:25-27)
* Yes, Christ came to confirm the promises made to the fathers, and the twelve confirmed what He said throughout the Acts period. This is not the church of which you and I are part. Believing Gentiles, like Cornelius, were only grafted into the Olive tree of Israel, in order to make Israel jealous (Romans 11:11 & 14); , and bring life back to an ailing tree, by causing Israel to seek to emulate them.
* The signs associated with Pentecost were those predicted in Joel's prophecy.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The Lord did not come to found a church, but to be, ' a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to CONFIRM the promises made unto the fathers.' (Rom. 15:8) . His message was not regarded; and the record of the four gospels tells us how the kingdom was rejected, and the King crucified. The ministry of The twelve' confirmed His Word (Hebrews 2:3-4). The call was to the nation of Israel to come to repentance, for upon their repentance hangs the promise of the Lord's return.
'Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive
until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken
by the mouth of all His holy prophets
since the world began.'
(Act 3:19-21)
* The day of the Lord had indeed drawn nigh. God's call, through Peter was, 'Save yourselves from this untoward generation'.
* Our Lord is 'the foundation stone' of (Isaiah 28:16 ). and 'the rejected stone' of (Psalm 118:22). ' Upon this rock', said the Lord. He 'will' (future) 'build His church' (Matthew 16:18). 'Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God'. This statement of God, spoken by Peter is the foundation upon which the Lord would build His Church (assembly). That referred to in Psalm 22:22, 25 & ch. Defined as 'Israel' and the 'Remnant' in Romans 9:25-27).
'As He saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people;
and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass,
that in the place where it was said unto them,
Ye are not my people;
there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel,
Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
a remnant shall be saved:'
(Rom 9:25-27)
* Yes, Christ came to confirm the promises made to the fathers, and the twelve confirmed what He said throughout the Acts period. This is not the church of which you and I are part. Believing Gentiles, like Cornelius, were only grafted into the Olive tree of Israel, in order to make Israel jealous (Romans 11:11 & 14); , and bring life back to an ailing tree, by causing Israel to seek to emulate them.
* The signs associated with Pentecost were those predicted in Joel's prophecy.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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civic
Well-known member
This is called quote mining to support one’s personal beliefs. Paul in 1 Cor 15 declares he is one of the Apostles chosen by Christ in person who saw and witnessed the Resurrected Lord.'And they prayed, and said,
Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men,
shew whether of these two Thou hast chosen,'
(Act 1:24)
* The Holy Spirit confirmed the choice in his reference to them as, 'The Twelve' in Acts 6:2.
'Then THE TWELVE called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said,
It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.'
(Act 6:2)
Beginning from the baptism of John,
unto that same day that He was taken up from us,
must one be ordained to be a witness with us of His resurrection.
(Act 1:22)
Hello @Fred & @Nadab,
I am glad that @Fred rounded off this little aside. For it was not possible for Paul to be included among the twelve. for he did not meet the criteria necessary of a witness of all that the Lord said and did during His earthly ministry, nor did he witness the resurrection and ascension of Christ. He himself always made a distinction between himself and the twelve. Their ministry was that described in Hebrews 2:3-4, being 'them that heard Him' :-
'How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
.. God also bearing them witness,
.... both with signs and wonders,
...... and with divers miracles,
........ and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
.......... according to His Own will?
(Heb 2:3-4)
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Complete
Well-known member
'And last of all He was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.'
(1Co 15:8)
Hello @civic,
Why should you judge me in this way? When I am simply providing confirmatory evidence drawn from Scripture? I thought better of you than that.
Yet Paul had not been a witness from the time of John the Baptist He had not heard and seen what took place during the Lord's ministry, He saw the ascended Christ, yes, but did not witness His resurrection. That made it impossible for him to be a witness among the Twelve. He was a called Apostle, chosen of God and not of man. Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
civic
Well-known member
That would be wrong since Paul wrote several of his epistles to the Church @ Galatians, Ephesians, Romans, Corinthians, Colossians were Gentiles. Those churches were Gentiles whom Paul was the Apostles sent by Jesus to the gentiles.
Acts 15:23- With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
Also some of the 7 churches in Revelation were specifically to " gentiles " in those churches.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Paul meets every single biblical criteria for being an Apostle just like the 12. Not my opinion but based solely upon Pauls own words which are inspired by Christ. Paul is one of those whom the church is built upon as its foundation as an Apostle.
Gal 1:1
Paul, an apostle — sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ
Ephesians 2:19-20
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Acts 1:21-22
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
1 Corinthians 9:1-2
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:8-9
8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Revelation 21:14 -The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The Apostles also performed miracles, signs and wonders as confirmation they were sent by God/Christ. Acts 2:43 cf 2 Corinthians 2:12
Peter himself confirms Paul as an Apostle below : his equal.
2 Peter 3
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
the right hand of fellowship is found in Galatians 2:9. There, Paul recounts, “James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.” At this relatively early stage in his ministry, Paul reported to the elders in Jerusalem on what he had been preaching, and the other apostles affirmed their support of his gospel. Their support was signified by extending “the right hand of fellowship” to Paul. The concept of extending the right hand of fellowship, in the sense of welcoming a new believer into a church family, is an important one. The word translated “fellowship” is from the Greek koinonia, referring to friendship or sharing in a partnership. In the very first church, the believers “devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer” (Acts 2:42)
hope this helps !!!
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civic
Well-known member
The church began on the day of Pentecost.
Complete
Well-known member
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
Acts 1:21-22
Hello @civic,
I did not say that Paul was not an Apostle. Of course he was. He was indeed the Apostle to the Gentiles. Called and chosen by God. However he was not eligible to be one of the twelve, because of the necessary qualifications that attended their appointment, Paul was not with them from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from them, he did not witness the Lord's resurrection, or His ascension into heaven, as the rest of the twelve did. The Twelve were called and commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ, during His earthly ministry. Paul was chosen and appointed by the risen and ascended Christ.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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civic
Well-known member
Paul and scripture disagree as I posted the passages Paul affirmed are equal with the 12 seeing the Resurrected Lord who appeared to Him personally and taught him for 3 years like He did the 12.
civic
Well-known member
How was their commission different ?
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @civic,
I will just give you Scriptures for comparison, without any words of mine at the moment, because of time.
* Paul's ministry was spelt out to him by the ascended Christ :-
'And when we were all fallen to the earth,
I heard a voice speaking unto me,
and saying in the Hebrew tongue,
"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
And I said, "Who art thou, Lord?"
And He said, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
.. to make thee a minister and a witness
.... both of these things which thou hast seen,
...... and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people,
and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
.. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light,
.... and from the power of Satan unto God,
...... that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
........ and inheritance among them which are sanctified
.......... by faith that is in Me."'
(Acts 26:14-18)
'But when it pleased God,
.. Who separated me from my mother's womb,
.... and called me by His grace,
...... To reveal his Son in me,
........ that I might preach him among the heathen;
immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
.. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;
.... but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
...... Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
........ But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'
(Gal 1:15-19)
'Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem
with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them
that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,
but privately to them which were of reputation,
lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
(Gal 2:1-2)
' But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(For He that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision,
The Same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars,
perceived the grace that was given unto me,
they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship;
that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.'
(Gal 2:7-9)
* Paul's further revelation:-
'Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:'
(Eph 3:8-11)
Praise God!
* The Twelve:-
'And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.'
(Mat 28:18)
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;
God also bearing them witness,
both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles,
and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?
(Hebrews 2:3-4)
'That which was from the beginning,
which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,
of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness,
and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us )
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,
that ye also may have fellowship with us:
and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.'
(1John 1:1-4)
Praise God!Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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101G
Well-known member
Correct. Acts 26:15 "And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest." Acts 26:16 "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;" Acts 26:17 "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee," Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
101G.
Johann
Well-known member
This would be correct-
Was Paul present when Jesus was crucified?
According to both sources, Saul/Paul was not a follower of Jesus and did not know him before his crucifixion. The narrative of the Book of Acts suggests Paul's conversion occurred 4–7 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.
