brightfame52
Well-known member
Its not possible for Christ to have tasted death for an individual and it didn't for that individual abolish death. That would be a detriment to His accomplishment and Him being the Saviour.
Tasted Death for every Man !
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I see your point, my friend.
Calvin didn't withstand seeing Arthur and Margaret rejecting God's offer of salvation. How could God be rejected?
So his answer was: Actually, Christ did not taste death for Arthur and Margaret, because they were not in God's plan to begin with. Arthur and Margaret were created for destruction, and who can challenge God for that?
Had Calvin be more patient, he would started grasping Pau'ls solution over the Hebrews who rejected Christ.
Hebrews were hardened by God or veiled by God for a while, so that Gentiles could profit. But once the purpose has been fulfilled, Jews would be saved as well.
Calvin real solution to the problem would have been:
Although Christ also tasted death for Arthur and Margaret, God has hardened their hearts for a while, so that Joe and Alice, their neighbors, can be reached by God. But God has not forgotten Arthur and Margaret. Once Joe and Alice have been saved, Arthur and Margaret will be saved as well.
That's the principle of universalism that I embrace.
It solves both apparent problems: God's sovereignty and God's love.
People get lost, taste hell and destruction for some time, so that others can profit (and so that they also learn from their mistakes), but they are still present in God's mind.
From our perspective they are definitively lost... but not from God's perspective.
Once the mission or purpose has been met, God "goes after them" and brings them back to the fold as well. All of this without affecting their free will. In the end, God is victorious His purpose is not frustrated.
Your argument is based upon a translator using every man when in fact the same Greek word πάς is used in John 3:16 which is translated as whoever or whomsoever.
(NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The Greek word πᾶς includes the idea of oneness, a totality or the whole. Such as each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything.
Therefore, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever-each one/every/any/all/everyone believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
In John 3:16 the Greek word for world κόσμος properly means the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.
Heb 2:9 comparison for the Greek word πᾶς
(NKJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
(KJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
Both translations work with the definition of the Greek word πᾶς, although 'everyone' is much better in my opinion since it fits 100% contextually to the definition.
In John 3:16, God gave His own Son to the world-the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family-and everyone who believes will not perish. And in Heb 2:9 that Jesus died for everyone, with God making Him lower than the angels into the form of man.
God gave His own Son for everyone. By doing so, His own Son died on a cross for everyone. Only those who believe God are justified to life, even though God purposed in His Son's death justification to life for everyone. Those who don't receive God's free gift of righteousness are condemned already, for they have not believed in the name of God's Son, the only means for their salvation.
Recap: Only those inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family who receive by faith God's free gift of justification to life in the death of His own Son, who became a Son of Man like them, will not perish. The rest of humanity who disbelieves are condemned, for they have not believed in the only name under Heaven by which a person can be saved.
God Bless
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brightfame52
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
The everyone Christ tasted death for in Heb 2:9 is everyone who is a believer, who sees[spiritually] Jesus Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The writer here includes himself and isnt speaking of the natural man or jew. The seeing here is the effects of the Holy Spirit giving sight. So Jesus tasted death for every man that is seeing Him, Jesus who came to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21 Its the Fathers will Jesus said Jn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The writer here includes himself and isnt speaking of the natural man or jew. The seeing here is the effects of the Holy Spirit giving sight. So Jesus tasted death for every man that is seeing Him, Jesus who came to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21 Its the Fathers will Jesus said Jn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Another way to understand Heb 2:9 from the context of scripture, and that is, the foundation of the death of Jesus in the verse is the Grace of God:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
And the Grace of God is discriminate, its not for all without exception though for all without distinction, of Gods Elect. Ex33:18-19
Ex. 33:18-19; And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy
Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The substitutionary nature of Christs death was for a remnant according to the election of grace. 4
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
And the Grace of God is discriminate, its not for all without exception though for all without distinction, of Gods Elect. Ex33:18-19
Ex. 33:18-19; And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy
Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The substitutionary nature of Christs death was for a remnant according to the election of grace. 4
brightfame52
Well-known member
Another way of understanding Heb 2:9 as it regards who the every man were concerning who Christ tasted death for. It was for everyone that had salvation by it Vs 10
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Notice the writer terms it their salvation, it belonged to them even though they didnt know it. They had no knowledge of their salvation until they heard the Gospel, Paul writes in Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
See salvation belongs to the saved before they hear about it by means of the Gospel
Salvation belongs to every sinner Christ tasted death for. The word for in Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Its the greek word prep hyper and means:
Christ therefore suffered in behalf of them the death they should have experienced and that equates to their salvation from death. The word denotes representation, in the interest of others.
And notice it also means for the sake of meaning:
You do it for the purpose or in order to achieve a result. The result in this case is their salvation !
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Notice the writer terms it their salvation, it belonged to them even though they didnt know it. They had no knowledge of their salvation until they heard the Gospel, Paul writes in Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
See salvation belongs to the saved before they hear about it by means of the Gospel
Salvation belongs to every sinner Christ tasted death for. The word for in Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Its the greek word prep hyper and means:
- in behalf of, for the sake of
Christ therefore suffered in behalf of them the death they should have experienced and that equates to their salvation from death. The word denotes representation, in the interest of others.
And notice it also means for the sake of meaning:
You do it for the purpose or in order to achieve a result. The result in this case is their salvation !
brightfame52
Well-known member
Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The every Man in Vs 9 refers to the Many Sons He suffered and died for, resulting in Him being the Captain of their Salvation. This therefore also speaks of effectual atonement since them He suffered and tasted death for resulted in Him being the Captain of their Salvation bringing them to Glory.5
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The every Man in Vs 9 refers to the Many Sons He suffered and died for, resulting in Him being the Captain of their Salvation. This therefore also speaks of effectual atonement since them He suffered and tasted death for resulted in Him being the Captain of their Salvation bringing them to Glory.5
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
No, it does not.
- Verse 9 (taste death for every man) refers to his mission.
- Verse 10 (bring many sons unto glory) refers to the result of his mission.
That's why his mission in verse 9 is universal, while the results He is getting (so far) are partial.
brightfame52
Well-known member
He tasted death for every man. The immediate context clarifies who the every man are in Heb 2:9-10
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. The suffering here culminates into His death in Vs 9
He tasted death for everyone of the many sons, that is supported by the immediate context.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. The suffering here culminates into His death in Vs 9
He tasted death for everyone of the many sons, that is supported by the immediate context.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Every man Jesus tasted death for He became the Captain of their Salvation and brings them to Glory Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Also the every man He tasted death for, are the sanctified ones Heb 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Now how were they who are sanctified sanctified ? Heb 10:10 tells us
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, which is equivalent to saying as Heb 2:9 states, His Death
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now are all men individually without exception sanctified ? Of course not, so Christ could not have tasted death for all men individually !
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Also the every man He tasted death for, are the sanctified ones Heb 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Now how were they who are sanctified sanctified ? Heb 10:10 tells us
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, which is equivalent to saying as Heb 2:9 states, His Death
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now are all men individually without exception sanctified ? Of course not, so Christ could not have tasted death for all men individually !
brightfame52
Well-known member
This is accursed works salvation based upon what man does. Jer 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
Obadiah
Well-known member
Romans 10:9-10 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Read More...)
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Acts 16:30-31 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (Read More...)
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Acts 16:30-31 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (Read More...)
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