brightfame52
Well-known member
Its not possible for Christ to have tasted death for an individual and it didn't for that individual abolish death. That would be a detriment to His accomplishment and Him being the Saviour.
Tasted Death for every Man !
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Pancho Frijoles
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I see your point, my friend.
Calvin didn't withstand seeing Arthur and Margaret rejecting God's offer of salvation. How could God be rejected?
So his answer was: Actually, Christ did not taste death for Arthur and Margaret, because they were not in God's plan to begin with. Arthur and Margaret were created for destruction, and who can challenge God for that?
Had Calvin be more patient, he would started grasping Pau'ls solution over the Hebrews who rejected Christ.
Hebrews were hardened by God or veiled by God for a while, so that Gentiles could profit. But once the purpose has been fulfilled, Jews would be saved as well.
Calvin real solution to the problem would have been:
Although Christ also tasted death for Arthur and Margaret, God has hardened their hearts for a while, so that Joe and Alice, their neighbors, can be reached by God. But God has not forgotten Arthur and Margaret. Once Joe and Alice have been saved, Arthur and Margaret will be saved as well.
That's the principle of universalism that I embrace.
It solves both apparent problems: God's sovereignty and God's love.
People get lost, taste hell and destruction for some time, so that others can profit (and so that they also learn from their mistakes), but they are still present in God's mind.
From our perspective they are definitively lost... but not from God's perspective.
Once the mission or purpose has been met, God "goes after them" and brings them back to the fold as well. All of this without affecting their free will. In the end, God is victorious His purpose is not frustrated.
Your argument is based upon a translator using every man when in fact the same Greek word πάς is used in John 3:16 which is translated as whoever or whomsoever.
(NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The Greek word πᾶς includes the idea of oneness, a totality or the whole. Such as each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything.
Therefore, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever-each one/every/any/all/everyone believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
In John 3:16 the Greek word for world κόσμος properly means the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.
Heb 2:9 comparison for the Greek word πᾶς
(NKJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
(KJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
Both translations work with the definition of the Greek word πᾶς, although 'everyone' is much better in my opinion since it fits 100% contextually to the definition.
In John 3:16, God gave His own Son to the world-the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family-and everyone who believes will not perish. And in Heb 2:9 that Jesus died for everyone, with God making Him lower than the angels into the form of man.
God gave His own Son for everyone. By doing so, His own Son died on a cross for everyone. Only those who believe God are justified to life, even though God purposed in His Son's death justification to life for everyone. Those who don't receive God's free gift of righteousness are condemned already, for they have not believed in the name of God's Son, the only means for their salvation.
Recap: Only those inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family who receive by faith God's free gift of justification to life in the death of His own Son, who became a Son of Man like them, will not perish. The rest of humanity who disbelieves are condemned, for they have not believed in the only name under Heaven by which a person can be saved.
God Bless
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brightfame52
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brightfame52
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The everyone Christ tasted death for in Heb 2:9 is everyone who is a believer, who sees[spiritually] Jesus Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The writer here includes himself and isnt speaking of the natural man or jew. The seeing here is the effects of the Holy Spirit giving sight. So Jesus tasted death for every man that is seeing Him, Jesus who came to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21 Its the Fathers will Jesus said Jn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The writer here includes himself and isnt speaking of the natural man or jew. The seeing here is the effects of the Holy Spirit giving sight. So Jesus tasted death for every man that is seeing Him, Jesus who came to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21 Its the Fathers will Jesus said Jn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Another way to understand Heb 2:9 from the context of scripture, and that is, the foundation of the death of Jesus in the verse is the Grace of God:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
And the Grace of God is discriminate, its not for all without exception though for all without distinction, of Gods Elect. Ex33:18-19
Ex. 33:18-19; And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy
Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The substitutionary nature of Christs death was for a remnant according to the election of grace. 4
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
And the Grace of God is discriminate, its not for all without exception though for all without distinction, of Gods Elect. Ex33:18-19
Ex. 33:18-19; And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy
Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The substitutionary nature of Christs death was for a remnant according to the election of grace. 4
brightfame52
Well-known member
Another way of understanding Heb 2:9 as it regards who the every man were concerning who Christ tasted death for. It was for everyone that had salvation by it Vs 10
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Notice the writer terms it their salvation, it belonged to them even though they didnt know it. They had no knowledge of their salvation until they heard the Gospel, Paul writes in Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
See salvation belongs to the saved before they hear about it by means of the Gospel
Salvation belongs to every sinner Christ tasted death for. The word for in Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Its the greek word prep hyper and means:
Christ therefore suffered in behalf of them the death they should have experienced and that equates to their salvation from death. The word denotes representation, in the interest of others.
And notice it also means for the sake of meaning:
You do it for the purpose or in order to achieve a result. The result in this case is their salvation !
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Notice the writer terms it their salvation, it belonged to them even though they didnt know it. They had no knowledge of their salvation until they heard the Gospel, Paul writes in Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
See salvation belongs to the saved before they hear about it by means of the Gospel
Salvation belongs to every sinner Christ tasted death for. The word for in Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Its the greek word prep hyper and means:
- in behalf of, for the sake of
Christ therefore suffered in behalf of them the death they should have experienced and that equates to their salvation from death. The word denotes representation, in the interest of others.
And notice it also means for the sake of meaning:
You do it for the purpose or in order to achieve a result. The result in this case is their salvation !
brightfame52
Well-known member
Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The every Man in Vs 9 refers to the Many Sons He suffered and died for, resulting in Him being the Captain of their Salvation. This therefore also speaks of effectual atonement since them He suffered and tasted death for resulted in Him being the Captain of their Salvation bringing them to Glory.5
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The every Man in Vs 9 refers to the Many Sons He suffered and died for, resulting in Him being the Captain of their Salvation. This therefore also speaks of effectual atonement since them He suffered and tasted death for resulted in Him being the Captain of their Salvation bringing them to Glory.5
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
No, it does not.
- Verse 9 (taste death for every man) refers to his mission.
- Verse 10 (bring many sons unto glory) refers to the result of his mission.
That's why his mission in verse 9 is universal, while the results He is getting (so far) are partial.
brightfame52
Well-known member
He tasted death for every man. The immediate context clarifies who the every man are in Heb 2:9-10
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. The suffering here culminates into His death in Vs 9
He tasted death for everyone of the many sons, that is supported by the immediate context.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. The suffering here culminates into His death in Vs 9
He tasted death for everyone of the many sons, that is supported by the immediate context.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Every man Jesus tasted death for He became the Captain of their Salvation and brings them to Glory Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Also the every man He tasted death for, are the sanctified ones Heb 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Now how were they who are sanctified sanctified ? Heb 10:10 tells us
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, which is equivalent to saying as Heb 2:9 states, His Death
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now are all men individually without exception sanctified ? Of course not, so Christ could not have tasted death for all men individually !
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Also the every man He tasted death for, are the sanctified ones Heb 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Now how were they who are sanctified sanctified ? Heb 10:10 tells us
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, which is equivalent to saying as Heb 2:9 states, His Death
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now are all men individually without exception sanctified ? Of course not, so Christ could not have tasted death for all men individually !
brightfame52
Well-known member
This is accursed works salvation based upon what man does. Jer 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
Obadiah
Well-known member
Romans 10:9-10 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Read More...)
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Acts 16:30-31 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (Read More...)
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Acts 16:30-31 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (Read More...)
civic
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We know He died for all the world , no exceptions but in Calvinism we can see it contradicts Jesus teaching on the atonement.
brightfame52
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world
1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.
Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).
We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.
So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism)
Its that world whom Christ made propitiation. Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and I will seek, search truth until my dying day and never allow any systematic theology or bias to cloud my view of Scripture.
he Golden Rule of Interpretation
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society
These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.
Thayers
Cosmos: the inhabitants of the
5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.
6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου
b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
hope this helps !!!
Cosmo
Member
1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Read it and come to the Truth.
civic
Well-known member
Yes that verse alone reveals that his belief is wrong
brightfame52
Well-known member
Like I said: Absolute false statement found nowhere in scripture., pure conjecture
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