So Jesus didn't taste death for the non-elect?
Tasted Death for every Man !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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So Jesus didn't taste death for the non-elect?
brightfame52
Well-known member
We know that the every man in Heb 2:9 that Christ by the Grace of God, tasted death for, wasn't every individual without exception, because His death was a manifestation of Gods Grace towards them, and so by His death they are Justified by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Those He died for are Justified by His Death/Blood Rom 5:9 !
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood or Death, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
And we know everyman individually is not Justified ! 2
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Those He died for are Justified by His Death/Blood Rom 5:9 !
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood or Death, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
And we know everyman individually is not Justified ! 2
brightfame52
Well-known member
No, thats like saying He tasted death for the goats, the tares, the vessels of wrath, the children of the devil.
civic
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
By Death delivered from Death.
We know that Christ didn't taste Death for all individuals without exception since those He tasted Death for are by His Death delivered from Death and the fear of Death Heb 2:9,14-15
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Those who Christ tasted death for have been set free from the death the devil brought about !
We know that Christ didn't taste Death for all individuals without exception since those He tasted Death for are by His Death delivered from Death and the fear of Death Heb 2:9,14-15
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Those who Christ tasted death for have been set free from the death the devil brought about !
brightfame52
Well-known member
The death of Christ for those He tasted death for Heb 2:9 it delivered them from #1 Death, #2 the Devil, #3 Hell, #4 Gods Wrath. So how can we testify to the death of Christ and its accomplishments, f any for He tasted death for die in their sins and experience for eternity Gods Wrath ? 3
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
That’s the bright side of the story. When I read it or hear it, I am moved into tears, since it shows unfathomable love for mankind.
The dark side of the story, though, is this: that a person MUST believe that Christ died for him, for that sacrifice to “work”. When I read or hear this, I am outraged.
Current Americans profit FOR FREE from the sacrifices made by the Pilgrims and people who built that great nation. They don’t have to BELIEVE that such thing happened. In any case, Why is it important to recognize what the Founders did for the USA? Because by contemplating history and feeling gratitude for the Pilgrims, current Americans feel INSPIRED to WORK in order to preserve and expand that legacy.
A person does not have to believe that God created the sun in order to enjoy the benefits of the sun.
A Roman soldier casting lots over Jesus garments did not have to believe Jesus was the Messiah in order to have Jesus interceding for him.
I am a Baha’i, not a Christian. When an Evangelical tells me :” Jesus died for you”, what is he expecting me to do?
To say “Thanks, Jesus”? I already say it. I already thank Jesus for his sacrifice.
He didn’t have to die and still He did it out of love. That holds true regardless of whether the doctrine of Penal Substitutionary Atonement is true or not. That holds true whether Jesus is God or not. That holds true whether Joseph Smith was visited by Angel Moroni or not, or whether I should abstain from work on Sunday or Saturday.
The dark side of the story is that the precious gift of Jesus is conditioned (by sectarian religious leaders) to meeting 973 requirements that will get me affiliated into their religious business (using the term of our brother @Studyman ).
One of those 973 requirements is that I must consider all my Jew, Muslim,, Zoroastrian, Sikh and Baha’i brothers and sisters excluded from the effect of Jesus sacrifice and damned to a well-deserved eternal torture.
Do you think I’m gonna say “Yes” to such requirement?
civic
Well-known member
Nope only those who do not believe. Everyone and anyone can believe or reject the gospel.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You deny the accomplishments of the Death of Christ for them He died/tasted death for! , His accomplishment is part of the Gospel message. Those He tasted death for has their sins purged away, look at Chapter 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Go ahead and deny it
Dizerner
Active member
I know you want love without holiness, you want God to love your idolatry and self-exaltation and agree with every fickle preference you ever have.
Who wouldn't want a powerful genie that fulfills their every wish, that pleases them in everything they want?
That's not God—that's making myself god, and using the real God as my slave to do my bidding.
Please, please, please be clear, I am not and never have asked you to say "thanks, Jesus," and that's a wrap.
The Gospel commands you to repent of you sins, to weep at your wicked heart, to forsake your selfish ways, to realize everything about you is displeasing to a Thrice-Holy God and understand that you are currently under his anger and displeasure for your arrogance and idolatry and breaking his perfectly holy laws, and then minimizing your own sin and excusing away all your mistakes as "no big deal," and then recreating a "god" in your own image to please you as an insult to his Greatness and Grandeur. The Bible calls for REPENTANCE from your dead works and idolatrous self-righteousness and self-serving image of the deity, it does not pander to all your sinful desires and bow in subservience to your moral demands of what you think is okay for the Infinite Transcendence or not. You have replaced yourself with the position of God Almighty!
For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?
"Now, therefore," says the LORD, "Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning."
So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the LORD your God (Joel 2:11-13 NKJ)
Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. (Jas. 4:9 NKJ)
No, no, no, no, no, NO, NO!
It CHANGES the whole purpose and meaning of his death, his death was not to please you, his death was his desire to maintain his holiness and still offer you mercy for your wickedness.
If Jesus tortured himself just to show how loving he is, then he is STUPID and what he did is pointless and destructive.
If you walked in on your beautiful and beloved wife, let's say theoretically, and she is in there torturing herself to death, cutting off her fingers and thrashing herself with whips, and you say, "Babe, what are you doing, why are you doing this!?" and she answers:
"Well Honey, can't you see, I'm suffering to show you just how much I love you! I'm doing this for you!"
You can only feel sorry for her because she is insane and makes no sense and her actions serve no purpose at all.
That's what you think Jesus did. Torture himself to show love. It makes no sense without his holiness, no sense at all.
Self-destructiveness is not a virtue.
Whether you exalt yourself above God, IS YOUR CHOICE ALONE.
God granted you this choice to make, and you can't excuse it on someone else or blame God for it, because God OWNS you.
You are currently IN REBELLION to God, you are not subject to his kingdom, you have made God YOUR ENEMY.
And he's offering you a chance to humble yourself, turn from your extreme pride, put him back on the throne, and REPENT.
You really need to wake up on this.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
When I think that Jesus died for me on the cross, it leads me to being crucified with Him to my old life and being resurrected with Him to a new life.
The old life is the life or arrogance and self-righteousness.
The new life is the life of submission to the will of His Father.
What I meant in my post, is that the above does not require adhering to the doctrine of Jesus' deity, PSA or physical resurrection.
The efficacy of Christ sacrifice, then, reaches anyone who, like the tax collector, comes to God with a contrite heart.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear Dizerner
I was an atheist for about 20 years or more... a militant atheist. I was proud of it. I lived a narcissist life that contemplated only my pleasures: money, sex and popularity. I thought I had control of my life. I denied any standard of morality that could come from Superior Being.
In reality I was a slave of my own fears, vices and deceptions.
Being in the depth of my spiritual abyss, like Jonah in the belly of the fish, I cried to God and He rescued me from hell.
People who live around me, at work and within my extended family, bear testimony of the character of kindness and love they see in me. That means that the Doctor is healing me. That his medicine is effective. That all praise should be given to God, the Merciful, the Munificent, The Giver, The Sustainer, The Ocean of Mercy, The Just, The All-Knowing, The Most Manifest, The Most Hidden, The Most Glorious.
I don't ask you to repent. To do that, I would need to know your private life, your sins.
Otherwise, my call would be too generic. We all must repent as we all sin.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear Dizerner
You are not in rebellion to God. Otherwise, you would be doing ungodly things.
You are a subject of his Kingdom. Otherwise, you would be showing the violence, pride, lust and indifference of those who do not belong to his kingdom.
You have not made God your enemy. Otherwise, you would be showing hatred to me instead of love.
I just think you are mistaken about certain things. For sure I am mistaken about other things. And most likely there are things for which the two of us are equally mistaken!
To make my understanding clear, I would like to point out a couple of things I have come to learn since "Coming out of" this world's religious system.. I believe that God created man with free will and by extension, with human reasoning. Both can be used for evil or for good, and it seems imperative to God that humans learn how to "rule over" both for "good", as HE defines it. The Story of Adam and Eve is what steered me to this understanding. God place a bunch of fruit trees in a Garden, (Metaphore) and told Adam and Eve they could eat of the trees except for the one tree. He could have just not placed the tree there to ensure they wouldn't eat of it, which according to Mainstream Christianity would have saved the entire world from Carnivores, but HE didn't, and this to teach us, in my understanding. As soon as God Said "Thou shalt not", a choice was created for Adam and Eve. Human reasoning, symbolized by the serpent, begins to work.
Is God really going to kill us because we ate the fruit of a tree HE placed in the garden? Just look at that fruit, "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat".
Adam and Eve had to "Learn" obedience through the things they suffered. It would have been a battle for Eve to fight against human reasoning for "Good" in this case. (Obeying God is Good) She could have gone to God, or Adam and asked for help. After all, God did Provide an Escape for her, and the temptation wasn't more than she was able to overcome. Those who by patient continuance in well doing, Seek for Glory and Immortality from God, engage in this battle, even as the Jesus "of the bible", engaged in this battle.
Just put some cookies on the counter and tell your 3-year-old not to eat them. And watch his mind work as he walks by and looks at those cookies trying to figure out a way to get one. And 10 out of 10, if it goes on long enough, will take of the cookie, and eat. He has to "learn" to trust his mother, even to the point of denying himself.
This plays out in my mind all day every day. For instance, God says pork and slugs are not food. But as soon as God says, "Don't eat of them", human reasoning goes into play to justify my lust to do as I please and eat what I want. All this world's religions, "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", all the merchants of this earth, and even the reasoning in my own mind, try and convince me, "Is God going to kill you because you ate a ham sandwich that HE placed in the garden? But what does God really want from me, if not to trust and respect Him, for my own good. That is why I won't eat. That is why Adam and Eve did eat, because they didn't really trust or respect God. And this To teach me this very thing.
The same thing for Days HE esteems above others. The same thing for lust of other women. Creating images of God in the likeness of men, holding unfounded grudges against others and so on.
So I agree that men are not to "live by" the traditions, superstitions, high days and philosophies of this world's religious systems. All 972
But we should consider the Commandments, Judgments and Statutes of God in a different light in my view, at least this is what the Holy Bible teaches. I know Mainstream Christianity certainly doesn't believe God in these things. And who knows, maybe human reasoning is God, as some believe. Nevertheless, I am committed to this God of Abraham, as defined in the Holy Scriptures. Perhaps there is another way, and maybe you and Civic are right, and obedience God in these things don't really matter. But what have I got to lose? A porkchop? Opening Day of Trout Season? Humiliation? Why would I disrespect God over such fleshy things?My issue with "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who transform themselves into apostles of Christ, is their twisting of Scriptures to promote their specific religious business, as they compete against other religious businesses for contributing members to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship. Clearly this is not the teaching of the Lord's Christ and others should be warned to at least "Take Heed" of their philosophies and traditions of men.
Concerning the popular teaching that all men are born immortal, I don't believe in this superstition. I find no evidence that God raises a man from the dead, gives him immortality, then tortures him for eternity in hellfire. So I don't believe those who reject God's instruction in righteousness are bound for live tortured forever. I believe there are many men, who chose to live as they pleased, according to their own superstition, their own judgments and Statutes, in their own righteousness and will receive the rewards of this world, such as it is. God will make this known to them, before the memory of them is dissolved, who God is and why HE will withhold immortality from them. In the same way God made known to Sodom and Gomorrah, and can you name even one person that perished in hellfire and brimstone in that day? No, the memory of every soul that died that day is forgotten. But you know of Abraham, Yes? This is because God is a God of the Living.
"But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
After all, what kind of Kingdom would we have if billions of immortal beings existed, that couldn't control their selfish desires over something as simple and easy to understand as food. Why would God make them Kings and Priests in His Kingdom? Don't we already have that now in the kingdoms of this world?
But for those who believed and trusted in Him, against the teaching of literally thousands of religious businesses and sects, all reasoning with their human heart against walking in many of God's Commandments and judgments, these men will receive something different, "In that day". That is my hope, according to what is given me in the Holy Scriptures.
As it is written:
Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Jesus tasted this "death of self", the "Faith in God His Father", placing HIS Trust in Him in all things, for me. How is creating my own religion, my own images of God, my own judgments, my own statutes, while I teach to the world that God created Laws impossible to obey, and lied to Abraham's Children, and me, when HE said to obey Him "for my own good"? How does this glorify the Father or the Son? Jesus said to Seek first the Kingdom of God and "HIS" Righteousness. What would I tell Him if I chose to listen to another voice instead, like Eve did? "Civic beguiled me"? "Kenneth Copeland beguiled me"? "The Pope beguiled me"?
I don't mean to be harsh or unkind here, and this is all just a passionate expression of my understanding of God. I know I may have saddled the wrong horse, and I won't know until the end, as God Himself has designed. I just want to share with you the absolute truth about my belief and why for the purpose of discussion and edification.
Out of sincere Love for the Brethren.
Let me know what you think, as I appreciate your perspectives.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Because that's what God always wanted for them. God created them to become kings, and God purpose will not be frustrated.
God will find a way. That way passes through punishment. Punishment has a purpose.
Not all of them.
I guess many are poor, sick and lonely, taking care of pigs, and yearning for their food, just like the Prodigal Son.
Hell starts here, and that's why salvation and eternal life starts here.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I believe your honesty and, in addition, I consider your posts full of truths and are helpful in my edification. So thanks for sharing, my brother.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes Christ did taste death for every man just as Heb 2:9 states, and for every man He tasted death for, by it He became the Captain of their Salvation Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The every man in Vs 9 is the their in Vs 10 !
Christ is the Captain of their Salvation via His suffering unto death for them. See the death of Christ effects the full Salvation of all for whom He died or tasted death for. This means if any man is never saved or comes into the realization of their Salvation, then its impossible for Christ to have tasted death for them, lest we conclude that His death was ineffectual to that end.3
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The every man in Vs 9 is the their in Vs 10 !
Christ is the Captain of their Salvation via His suffering unto death for them. See the death of Christ effects the full Salvation of all for whom He died or tasted death for. This means if any man is never saved or comes into the realization of their Salvation, then its impossible for Christ to have tasted death for them, lest we conclude that His death was ineffectual to that end.3
brightfame52
Well-known member
If we would understand the ramifications of Christ having tasted death, we would understand that it could not have been for every man without exception. Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The word taste
See He experienced death in behalf of every man He died for. The death He experienced is the death they incurred as the wages of their sins Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
So these whom He tasted / experience death their behalf, are fully exonerated/discharged from having to experience it for themselves, as the wages for their sins. Death for them has been abolished 2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Thats a key element in constituting Him Our Saviour, abolishing death for us by tasting death for us.
Its not possible for Christ to have tasted death for an individual and it didn't for that individual abolish death. That would be a detriment to His accomplishment and Him being the Saviour.
Many will have to go into the second death Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
Therefore Christ could not have tasted death and abolished death on their behalf.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The word taste
- to taste, to try the flavour of
- to taste
- i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
- to feel, make trial of, experience
- to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat
See He experienced death in behalf of every man He died for. The death He experienced is the death they incurred as the wages of their sins Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
So these whom He tasted / experience death their behalf, are fully exonerated/discharged from having to experience it for themselves, as the wages for their sins. Death for them has been abolished 2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Thats a key element in constituting Him Our Saviour, abolishing death for us by tasting death for us.
Its not possible for Christ to have tasted death for an individual and it didn't for that individual abolish death. That would be a detriment to His accomplishment and Him being the Saviour.
Many will have to go into the second death Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
Therefore Christ could not have tasted death and abolished death on their behalf.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The everyone Christ tasted death for in Heb 2:9 is everyone of His Bride, His Church. Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 4
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 4
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
To the question: if God is All-Good and All-Powerful, why not all people get saved?
Arminians answer: Because some people don't want to.
Calvinists answer: Because God does not want to save all.
Arminian response takes the blame out of God, but then don't know how to explain how man can frustrate God's plan.
Calvinist response makes God's plan run smoothly, but then don't know how to explain that God is good by creating souls for destruction.
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