Here are the debaters
Side A
1. Peterlag
2. Runningman
3. keiw1
Side B
1. Red Baker
2. 360watt
3. DavidTree
Side A
1. Peterlag
2. Runningman
3. keiw1
Side B
1. Red Baker
2. 360watt
3. DavidTree
Starts Now The Deity of Jesus Christ True or False?
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Peterlag
Active Member
Why would God come to the Earth as a man? What would that produce? Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).
John 3:16-17 is clear--God sent his son))= God did not come down here he sent the one named Jesus as a mortal.
Gods perfect justice= An eye for an eye= A perfect mortal rebelled and all mortals now faced sin and death---- A perfect mortal, lived perfect, but paid in full the wages of sin he did not owe= the ransom sacrifice.= A mortal died, God cannot ever be killed no matter what form he is.
Peterlag
Active Member
It has begun...
1. @Peterlag
2. @Runningman
3. @Keiw1
Side B
1. @Red Baker
2. @360watt
3. @DavidTree
1. @Peterlag
2. @Runningman
3. @Keiw1
Side B
1. @Red Baker
2. @360watt
3. @DavidTree
Runningman
Active Member
Yes, God's plan was that a sinless man would essentially undo what a sinful man caused. God was already forgiving sins left and right with the proverbial wave of His hand before Jesus was born (2 Samual 12:1-14, Jonah 3:1-10 Exodus 3:20-32, etc) so it isn't that bloodshed is inherently required for God to forgive sins. The point is that a sinless man needed to be the sacrificial lamb to meet the legal requirements of God's justice, end the sacrificial system, destroy death, and usher in of the New Covenant. God didn't come to die because He didn't need to do that to forgive sins nor are there any prophecies that state He would.
Peterlag
Active Member
Another guy wrote it this way... "The reason for the ransom sacrifice of Jesus was because of Adam’s sin. Adam was a perfect human and so a perfect ransom would need to be a perfect human. God would not need to die because his creation sinned."
Well Jesus..is said to be perfect here.
Only God can be perfect. In the sinless sense.
Peterlag
Active Member
Whatever perfection Adam had (who cannot be compared to God) is the same perfection that Jesus had.
But this tells us why Jesus came. What I'm looking for is why would God come? Is there a verse that says why God would come to the earth as a man?
You've already found the verses. Propitiation, justification, just for unjust etc..
Runningman
Active Member
Please provide a scriptural citation that says only God can be perfect. I have never read that in any Bible before.
Romans 3:23-25 KJV - 3 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1 ...all have sinned.. everyone is imperfect in the sense of not being sinless
2... justified by redemption through Jesus Christ... Jesus has to be perfect in the sinless sense to be the ultimate lamb
If all are imperfect in the sense of not being sinless
And Jesus is perfect in the sense of sinlessness.
Jesus is then God.
Runningman
Active Member
A few things. As was previously stated, Adam was initially perfect until he sinned. So he was not God until suddenly he was not God. He was not born a sinner nor can one make the argument he inherently had a sinful nature. He was simply a man with a freewill who made a choice to disobey and that's when he was no longer perfect. So sinless perfection is not very good metric for defining God.
As far as justification, 1 Timothy 3:16 (not using the KJV which erroneously adds the word God in this verse) teaches that Jesus was justified himself by the Spirit of God. So even Jesus had justification.
God's nature is that He cannot even be tempted to sin (James 1:13) but Jesus was tempted in all ways to sin, yet remained without sin (Hebrews 4:15)
That's why the Bible doesn't explicitly say being sinless makes someone God, because it doesn't.
Adam is an exception as one who was created by God perfect to begin with. He wasn't God, true, but since the fall..this sinlessness has not been ascribed to any one but Jesus since.
Aside from this, Jesus being the ultimate lamb.. the one sacrifice for all.. who could justify, atone. ..
No one can do that but Jesus, as God.
Also, other translations that have 'he' and not God for 1 tim 3..
The context of the 'he' is about God.
For eg..1 tim 3:15.. 'the living God' by context is Jesus.
Peterlag
Active Member
The question is not is Jesus God. The question is why would God come to the earth as a man? If he indeed did do that. Then there had to be a reason for it. What is that reason? What Scripture tells us why God would come to the earth as a man? What would that accomplish? 1 Timothy 3:16 does not tell us why God had to come.
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV
He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
Justification, propitiation, just for the unjust.
Why did Jesus have to be a human being?
Pastor Tom Hicks of First Baptist Church of Clinton, Louisiana discusses why it was necessary for Jesus Christ to have a human nature.
pastortomhicks.com
@Peterlag
My first post was concerning since man sinned, man had to pay the debt in the same flesh that had sinned, so Christ came as a man to redeem those under the law, or under its curse, whom God had ordained to redeem.
Let us search from beginning to end about "Jesus" the Man Child.
Mankind offended his Creator, was condemned to three deaths, and driven from Him. But it has the cure for the catastrophe – foretold to Satan – Eve’s Son would kill him. Genesis 3 is negative/hopeless, but for 3:15. Consider! A man child is the difference! Satan would wound Jesus but a little ~ His heel; Jesus caused him a fatal head wound. Here in the start of human history is the perpetual and violent war between two seeds.
This prophecy has the same little helper as in Genesis 3:15, it is a man child by, “his.” But further, we know this prophecy means Jesus and us in Him, Abraham’s true seed. New Testament Christians should read the Old Testament with the assistance of Paul.
About 9,000 (based on the genealogies of Genesis 5) of years after Eden, God told His church, a woman symbolically, of a Son. How could there be a more dramatic sign than a virgin conceiving a son, a man child? His name would be Immanuel, for He would be God with us, God in a human body. The RSV (1952) and NRSV (1989) rejected the verse’s virgin with “a young woman.”
Isaiah 9:6,7
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
The coming Man Child would not be ordinary at all, but rather a perfect divine Ruler. God is not ashamed of David for the comparison, for he was a mighty king of Israel. He would increase His perfect rule and just peace that would last forever without end. What is behind this incredible political event? "The same sovereign Jehovah of Eden!"
Jeremiah promised to Israel a new thing God would create in the earth. How is it new? The new thing would be a woman surrounding a man ~ him inside a woman’s womb. All men but Adam arrive this way, but God’s creation made this one unique. See Isaiah 7:14 above. The angel’s explanation of Mary’s pregnancy fulfilled this event perfectly (Luke 1:35) ). If you need a little contextual help, note that Herod killing infants is near (Jeremiah 31:15).
There so much more but enough for now.
I have already answered this question, but I cannot locate my post, maybe it was deleted, for whatever reason, I do not know. No problem answering your question once more, this time from a different angle, which I could give many post from different perceptive, since the scriptures are written for this very purpose to give God's witness concerning His Son.
My first post was concerning since man sinned, man had to pay the debt in the same flesh that had sinned, so Christ came as a man to redeem those under the law, or under its curse, whom God had ordained to redeem.
Let us search from beginning to end about "Jesus" the Man Child.
Revelation 12:5
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”Genesis 3:15
“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”Mankind offended his Creator, was condemned to three deaths, and driven from Him. But it has the cure for the catastrophe – foretold to Satan – Eve’s Son would kill him. Genesis 3 is negative/hopeless, but for 3:15. Consider! A man child is the difference! Satan would wound Jesus but a little ~ His heel; Jesus caused him a fatal head wound. Here in the start of human history is the perpetual and violent war between two seeds.
Genesis 22:17,18
“That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed, as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed (which is Christ~RB) shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”This prophecy has the same little helper as in Genesis 3:15, it is a man child by, “his.” But further, we know this prophecy means Jesus and us in Him, Abraham’s true seed. New Testament Christians should read the Old Testament with the assistance of Paul.
Isaiah 7:14
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”About 9,000 (based on the genealogies of Genesis 5) of years after Eden, God told His church, a woman symbolically, of a Son. How could there be a more dramatic sign than a virgin conceiving a son, a man child? His name would be Immanuel, for He would be God with us, God in a human body. The RSV (1952) and NRSV (1989) rejected the verse’s virgin with “a young woman.”
Isaiah 9:6,7
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
The coming Man Child would not be ordinary at all, but rather a perfect divine Ruler. God is not ashamed of David for the comparison, for he was a mighty king of Israel. He would increase His perfect rule and just peace that would last forever without end. What is behind this incredible political event? "The same sovereign Jehovah of Eden!"
Jeremiah 31:22
“How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.”Jeremiah promised to Israel a new thing God would create in the earth. How is it new? The new thing would be a woman surrounding a man ~ him inside a woman’s womb. All men but Adam arrive this way, but God’s creation made this one unique. See Isaiah 7:14 above. The angel’s explanation of Mary’s pregnancy fulfilled this event perfectly (Luke 1:35) ). If you need a little contextual help, note that Herod killing infants is near (Jeremiah 31:15).
Galatians 4:4-6
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”The adoption of the sons of God, and securing their free gift of eternal life by Christ being their surety
There so much more but enough for now.
Peterlag
Active Member
May I ask what verse from above says why God would come to the Earth as a man? Perhaps it's in the first two verses you listed below...
Revelation 12:5
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”Genesis 3:15
“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
Peterlag
Active Member
Justification, propitiation, just for the unjust.
Why did Jesus have to be a human being?
Pastor Tom Hicks of First Baptist Church of Clinton, Louisiana discusses why it was necessary for Jesus Christ to have a human nature.
This must be a hard question because nobody seems able to answer it. I think it's a fair question. If God came to the earth. There must of been a good reason for it. Seems kind a stupid that He would start out as a baby but that's just my thinking. Now back to me question. Why would God need to come to the earth? To accomplish what?
The link you provided opens up with "Why did Jesus have to be a human being?" My question is why did God come? Is there a verse that says why God had to come?
Runningman
Active Member
That there is an exception to your rule is proof that being sinless does not equate someone to being God. Not useful to support God coming to earth as a man in that case.
As far as Jesus being the Lamb, we have more than one example of the Lamb not being God, but rather a man distinct from God Almighty. See John 1:29,30 where the Lamb is defined as a man. See Revelation 21:22 where the Lamb is distinct from Lord God Almighty.
God doesn't need to be justified, but Jesus did. Think about it.
So there is still no proof that God came to earth as a man.
@Peterlag @Runningman @Keiw1 @Studyman and any other person rejecting Jesus being God manifest in the flesh to secure eternal life for his people according to the will of God.
The first few verses are an introduction to Galatians 4:4-6
Stop playing dumb, no more than you are already spiritually speaking.
The first few verses are an introduction to Galatians 4:4-6
