Sinless Perfection

[Neil Spargo]

Sin is the reason we need to be saved. We are saved from various aspects of sin, and so our salvation has a past and present as well as a future phase.

We Christians still struggle with the power of sin in our lives. Even though they we are forgiven, we are not perfect. While on earth we are being saved from the power of sin. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. This holds true for everyone.

If you ever call someone a fool for any reason the bible says in Matthew 5:22 your the same as a murder.

The apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favoritism:

11. But when Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I protested and opposed him to his face [concerning his conduct there], for he was blameable and stood condemned.
12'. For up to the time that certain persons came from James, he ate his meals with the Gentile [converts]; but when the men [from Jerusalem] arrived, he withdrew and held himself aloof from the Gentiles and [ate] separately for fear of those of the circumcision [party].
13. And the rest of the Jews along with him also concealed their true convictions and acted insincerely, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy (their example of insincerity and pretense).
Galatians 2:11–13

Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners 1 Timothy 1:15

Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

 

[Speculator]

The Holiness movement/church is an influence within Christianity that teaches that a person can achieve perfect holiness, or sinless perfection, while on earth. This doctrine teaches “entire sanctification,” which usually comes via a spiritual experience that those in the Holiness movement refer to as the “second work of grace” or the “second blessing.” The Holiness movement is opposed by Reformed thinkers, who assert that original sin still exists in even the most faithful person.

The Holiness movement began in 1840 when a Methodist leader named Phoebe Palmer began to hold revivals and teach the necessity of holiness—and how to attain it. Groups and denominations historically associated with the Holiness movement include Wesleyans, Methodists, Nazarenes, and the Salvation Army. However, it should be noted that churches differ widely on doctrine, even within denominations. The Holiness movement did have a profound effect on the history of the church, particularly in North America during the Third Great Awakening. Holiness adherents are typically interested in obedience to the Law and see their obedience as a way to gain closeness to God and greater spirituality.

While holiness is a biblical mandate and something every believer should strive for (Hebrews 12:14), those in the Holiness movement typically leave out an important detail: the fact that absolute holiness is impossible to attain. Perfection, sinlessness, and a holy life are not within man’s power to achieve. This idea is backed up by the Bible in numerous passages, most notably in the book of Romans. Paul’s argument in the first part of Romans is that man is fallen and unable to make himself follow the Law. In addition, it could be said that the whole history of Israel, with its repeated failures, is an object lesson about man’s inability to achieve holiness through the Law.

The Holiness movement is related to Pentecostalism in that it says that God helps the believer by giving him the “second blessing” of His Spirit. The “second blessing,” according to Holiness teaching, seals the believer in a sinless state. Unfortunately, a “sinless state” is not supported by either the Bible or human experience. While an emotional experience can make one feel that holiness is possible and that we never want to sin again, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is still beset with weakness (Romans 7:14–19). Even the apostle Paul was unable to be completely sinless, and he admitted as much, saying that the old law of sin was still alive in his body, even though he served God in his mind and spirit (Romans 7:21–23).

Elsewhere, Paul mentions a “thorn” in his flesh, making him rely on God’s strength instead of his own weakness (2 Corinthians 12:7). Near the end of his life, when by all accounts he should have been the most holy, Paul called himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Had Paul not received the second blessing? Or perhaps there is no second blessing resulting in sinlessness. The fact is that none of the apostles ever hinted at the possibility that man can achieve “entire sanctification,” and there is no mention in the Bible of a “second blessing” of the Spirit.

Christians do sin (1 John 1:5–10), but, hopefully, less and less as we mature in Christ (Philippians 3:12). The Holiness movement is wrong in its assumption that a believer can keep enough rules to attain sinless perfection in this world.

The Holiness Movement: Are They God's Special People? - Berean Holiness

I grew up thinking that Holiness doctrine and practice was in a league of its own. Imagine my surprise to learn that both are quite common.

bereanholiness.com

 

[TedT]

Christians do sin (1 John 1:5–10), but, hopefully, less and less as we mature in Christ

...or heed the severe discipline that trains us in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11.

 

[Bobby Walker]

@Speculator

Yes Christians do sin.

Sin is Voluntary transgression of known law. In this sense all who are born of God are free from sin. (2.) It means all unholy tempers, self-will, pride, anger, sinful thoughts. From these the perfect are free.

But mistakes and infirmities are not sins. “These are,” indeed, “deviations from the perfect law, and consequently need atonement. Yet they are not properly sins.” “A person filled with the love of God is still liable to these involuntary transgressions. Such transgressions you may call sins, if you please, I do not.”

The question, however, is not what man chooses to call sin; but what does the law of God condemn. Nothing which the law does not condemn can need expiation. If these transgressions, therefore, need atonement, they are sins in the sight of God. Our refusing to recognize them as such does not alter their nature, or remove their guilt.

Charles Hodge

 

[Wilber]

@Speculator

Yes Christians do sin.

Sin is Voluntary transgression of known law. In this sense all who are born of God are free from sin. (2.) It means all unholy tempers, self-will, pride, anger, sinful thoughts. From these the perfect are free.

But mistakes and infirmities are not sins. “These are,” indeed, “deviations from the perfect law, and consequently need atonement. Yet they are not properly sins.” “A person filled with the love of God is still liable to these involuntary transgressions. Such transgressions you may call sins, if you please, I do not.”

The question, however, is not what man chooses to call sin; but what does the law of God condemn. Nothing which the law does not condemn can need expiation. If these transgressions, therefore, need atonement, they are sins in the sight of God. Our refusing to recognize them as such does not alter their nature, or remove their guilt.

Charles Hodge

For us believers' sin is abnormal and unnatural; our whole point in life of life is to stay away from sin.
The fact remains, however, that Christians do not experience the sinless life perfectly on this earth. So, this remains true.

8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].
1 John 1:8–10.

The two ideas are not really incompatible. The Christian still experiences a genuine struggle with the flesh and overcomes its impulses only by the help of the Holy Spirit.

16 But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
17 For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
18 But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.
19 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
23 Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
25 If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit we have our life in God, let us go forward walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]
26 Let us not become vainglorious and self-conceited, competitive and challenging and provoking and irritating to one another, envying and being jealous of one another.
Gal 5:16–26


Paul had his struggle with sin after his dramatic conversion occurred on the Damascus-Road. He was able to conclude, “Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it” Romans. 7:20

In this way Paul could perceive sin as not a real part of what he was at the most inward level of his being.
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[a] a slave to the law of sin. Romans. 7:25

When he wrote, “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me” Galatians 2:20, he is implying the same thing. If Christ alone really lives, sin can be no part of that experience. So as God is experienced by a believer, that experience is sinless.

Satan Accuses Believers
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God, day and night.

But Jesus is our advocate or defense lawyer

 

[Elliot]

So you two comedians are okay with a God that does these things to people who “cannot stop sinning”?

Things like these:

“When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread: So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.” (Ezekiel 5:16-17)

Ezekiel 5:16-17 is a prophetic message from God to the people of Israel, warning them of the consequences of their disobedience and unfaithfulness. The verses describe a series of judgments that will befall the nation, including famine, wild beasts, pestilence, and bloodshed. These judgments are intended to bring the people back to God and to serve as a warning of the dire consequences of turning away from Him. The imagery of "evil arrows of famine" and the breaking of the "staff of bread" symbolize the severe and intentional nature of God's judgment. The verses emphasize the importance of repentance and the need for the people to turn to God's ways before it is too late.

This was before the cross. Now we still sin but one of the wonderful truths of Scripture is found in Romans 8:1: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature.

14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I deligh in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Romans 7:14–24

No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

 

[Micaiah]

Ezekiel 5:16-17 is a prophetic message from God to the people of Israel, warning them of the consequences of their disobedience and unfaithfulness. The verses describe a series of judgments that will befall the nation, including famine, wild beasts, pestilence, and bloodshed. These judgments are intended to bring the people back to God and to serve as a warning of the dire consequences of turning away from Him. The imagery of "evil arrows of famine" and the breaking of the "staff of bread" symbolize the severe and intentional nature of God's judgment. The verses emphasize the importance of repentance and the need for the people to turn to God's ways before it is too late.

This was before the cross. Now we still sin but one of the wonderful truths of Scripture is found in Romans 8:1: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature.

14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I deligh in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Romans 7:14–24

No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

I'll go with this one.

“Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.” 1 John 3:9

Two key phrases stand out:

1 “Refuses to practice sin”

2 “He cannot go on sinning”

The wording in the Berean Standard Bible underscores a continuous, habitual pattern of sin. The language pushes us to think about ongoing, unrepentant sin rather than isolated acts. This distinction becomes more apparent when viewed in light of other verses in 1 John.

 

[Bobby Walker]

I'll go with this one.

“Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.” 1 John 3:9

Two key phrases stand out:

1 “Refuses to practice sin”

2 “He cannot go on sinning”

The wording in the Berean Standard Bible underscores a continuous, habitual pattern of sin. The language pushes us to think about ongoing, unrepentant sin rather than isolated acts. This distinction becomes more apparent when viewed in light of other verses in 1 John.

All human beings are born with a sin nature. The Bible teaches that, while we are living in the flesh, we will always struggle with sin (Romans 7:14–24; 1 John 1:8). This applies to unbelievers as well as believers. The difference is that at salvation believers receive the Holy Spirit and become new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). Because of this, they are no longer slaves to sin (Romans 6:6–7). The Holy Spirit empowers believers to live for righteousness. While sinless perfection is unattainable in this life, 1 John 3:9 tells us that “whoever has been born of God does not sin” (NKJV). goy?