Romans - Outside In

[Behold]

3. The gospel is about a person, not about whether I am saved or not. It is about the resurrection and Lordship of Christ.

So, you are a "Lordship Salvation" Cult teacher, also....

Which is why you know very little about Paul's Gospel..

Listen, The Gospel, that Paul preaches........is this.....>"WE Preach Christ Crucified".... as "the Preaching of the Cross"....

"""""""For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.""""""

 

[Behold]

As for the "time of the Gentiles," you would have to explain what you mean by that.

Paul is the "Apostle to the Gentiles' in the "Time of the Gentiles'.
We are still in it.
This is why Paul's Gospel is specific., and is THE Gospel.... Galatians 1:8

See, since the Cross was raised that birthed the NT Church....the "time of the Gentiles' started.....whereby God is offering to Gentiles... Salvation through Christ. John 14:6

THis is why the NT Church is mostly Gentiles.. in the "time of the Gentiles"., and Paul is the "Apostle TO The Gentiles".

 

[Swordman]

So, you are a "Lordship Salvation" Cult teacher, also....

Which is why you know very little about Paul's Gospel..

Listen, The Gospel, that Paul preaches........is this.....>"WE Preach Christ Crucified".... as "the Preaching of the Cross"....

"""""""For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.""""""

And here we go.

Calling me a "cult teacher" means very little and has no real impact on me. What cult are you referring to? Perhaps you could give us a name.

Are you saying you do not affirm Jesus the Messiah as Lord?

You probably should get to know me a bit before casting the stones and slinging the mud.

My definition of the gospel is right out of the letter to the Romans:

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord. . . . (Rom. 1:1–4 NRSV).

 

[Swordman]

What your have written is a lot of nonsense..........a lot.

I'll just take this point you tried to use .....

You said that a person can't know they are saved, till after they are dead....(future redemption)..

However, the proof that a person is saved, is that they are born again, and this spiritual birth is Eternal.

How do you know?
Its because Salvation contains 3 Gifts from God.

1.) THe Gift of Salvation Itself.

2.) "The Gift of Righteousness".

3.)... "The Gift of ETERNAL LIFE..":"

Now notice that the born again "IN CHRIST">. has "Eternal life"... and John says....>>"you can KNOW that you have Eternal LIFE... as this life is IN HIS Son"... and the born again are "IN Christ".

Jesus said that "all who believe, i give unto them ETERNAL LIFE".. and HE is Eternal life, and "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory" is proof that the born again have eternal life., RIGHT NOW...........so that is why a Real Christian can have assurance of their Salvation, RIGHT NOW.

You, @Swordman are clueless regarding this, so, that means that your Salvation Theology, is going to be Clueless as well.

Actually, you are misquoting me. What I said was (emphasis in caps in this quote so you don't miss it), "IF YOU ARE VIEWING SALVATION AS THE ENDPOINT, our future redemption, then no one can know they are saved until that point in time. Even Calvin suggested that there were those who thought they were saved, participated in the church, but fell away eventually. (All in God's plan.) IT IS BEST TO VIEW SALVATION FROM ITS EFFECTS ON US TODAY - we are saved from the power of sin."

You see, I am not suggesting we cannot know we are saved, but that we need to view our salvation in the present, not the future. It is our freedom from the power of sin based on the work of Christ and of the Spirit in our life that marks us as a Christian. I would suggest you read Romans 6.

Also, when referencing a text, you should provide the reference so that people can verify you are quoting in context. Should I assume you are referencing John 10:28 here?

Do you want to have a serious conversation or just spend your time with insults? (I do not have time for the later.)

 

[Behold]

And here we go.

Calling me a "cult teacher" means very little and has no real impact on me.

If you are teaching.. "Lordship Salvation". .then you became a false teacher of this doctrine, before i pointed it out.

I think John McArthur shouts the loudest regarding this cult teaching... that is simply teaching that Your Salvation is based not on God's "Gift of Salvation" that is FREE, but your salvation is only in operation if you are submitting to "Lordship"... which of course is teaching that you have to do something to earn Salvation.

THat is.. Galatians 1:8

What cult are you referring to? Perhaps you could give us a name.

"Lordship Salvation" Doctrine.

Are you saying you do not affirm Jesus the Messiah as Lord?

"Jesus is Lord" "of ALL"..

That means Creation, People....... everything.. "OF ALL"..

This means that Jesus is the Lord... no matter what you believe about it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you are teaching.. "Lordship Salvation". .then you became a false teacher of this doctrine, before i pointed it out.

I think John McArthur shouts the loudest regarding this cult teaching... that is simply teaching that Your Salvation is based not on God's "Gift of Salvation" that is FREE, but your salvation is only in operation if you are submitting to "Lordship"... which of course is teaching that you have to do something to earn Salvation.

Hi Behold

Your statement is not logical.
Submitting our life to God is the opposite of a salvation based in own merits.
Submitting our life to God is recognizing that we are like nothing, and He is everything.

 

[Swordman]

Our study restarts this Thursday with Romans 2:17-3:8 and a discussion of common Judaism. Hope to see you there.

Course Resources: HTRRIC — Lansdowne Alliance Church

Courses: How To Read Romans In Context

www.lansdownealliance.com

 

[Swordman]

If you are teaching.. "Lordship Salvation". .then you became a false teacher of this doctrine, before i pointed it out.

I think John McArthur shouts the loudest regarding this cult teaching... that is simply teaching that Your Salvation is based not on God's "Gift of Salvation" that is FREE, but your salvation is only in operation if you are submitting to "Lordship"... which of course is teaching that you have to do something to earn Salvation.

THat is.. Galatians 1:8




"Lordship Salvation" Doctrine.



"Jesus is Lord" "of ALL"..

That means Creation, People....... everything.. "OF ALL"..

This means that Jesus is the Lord... no matter what you believe about it.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you saying MacArthur (check your spelling) is a false teacher of Lordship Salvation or that he rejects it? He wrote a book on it years ago.

I am not a fan of MacArthur, but I do not find it productive to label him as a cult teacher.

But you seem to contradict yourself. If Jesus is Lord, then obedience must go beyond just a simple belief in Him. In fact, Paul tells us that his mission was to bring about the obedience of faith among the Gentiles in Romans 1:5. Since he is writing to believers, his purpose is to lead them further into obedience.

Salvation is always by God's grace. He does not have to save anyone. But it is also covenantal, which implies that once you are a part of the Christian community, obedience is required.

Referencing Gal. 1:8 does nothing for you. An antinomian view of Christianity is just as dangerous as one that declares you can work you way into God's favor.

 

[Swordman]

Reschedule - Session 5 from tomorrow (Dec 5) to next Thursday, December 12.

Several people from our in-person group have informed us that they have prior commitments. This includes the pastor who have been handling the recording and online sessions. We could get a substitute for him, but given the number that cannot make it, we are pushing this session for a week.

Sorry for the late notice.

 

[mikesw]

Reschedule - Session 5 from tomorrow (Dec 5) to next Thursday, December 12.

Several people from our in-person group have informed us that they have prior commitments. This includes the pastor who have been handling the recording and online sessions. We could get a substitute for him, but given the number that cannot make it, we are pushing this session for a week.

Sorry for the late notice.

The delay should work well for me. I'm starting up my study on Rom 2:17-3:2. So, I will be able to keep focus on getting details together.

 

[Swordman]

The delay should work well for me. I'm starting up my study on Rom 2:17-3:2. So, I will be able to keep focus on getting details together.

It also allows me to focus on some writing on 1 John 5 where I have a deadline. I would have made it either way, but it reduces my stress a bit.

 

[DavidTree]

Hi Behold

Your statement is not logical.
Submitting our life to God is the opposite of a salvation based in own merits.
Submitting our life to God is recognizing that we are like nothing, and He is everything.

What way did God specify for this to take place?

 

[mikesw]

Hi Behold

Your statement is not logical.
Submitting our life to God is the opposite of a salvation based in own merits.
Submitting our life to God is recognizing that we are like nothing, and He is everything.

Pancho Frijoles keeps sharing stuff opposite to scriptures-- like this last point.
God has shown esteem and love for us by raising us out of the mire to become children of God. We are to recognize the worth that God has for us in that he gave his only begotten Son as a sacrifice to reconcile people to him. Those who are in Christ are to rejoice in what God has done for us and to accept that worth.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What way did God specify for this to take place?

Jesus showed the way with his words and acts.

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7)

If we want to make Christ the Lord of our lives, we have to submit our will to God just as He submitted his will to God.
How does this submission occur?
We come humbly to God with a broken heart, genuine repentance, and willing to leave behind the life of the flesh and born into a new life... the life of the spirit.

I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus showed the way with his words and acts.

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7)

If we want to make Christ the Lord of our lives, we have to submit our will to God just as He submitted his will to God.
How does this submission occur?
We come humbly to God with a broken heart, genuine repentance, and willing to leave behind the life of the flesh and born into a new life... the life of the spirit.

I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

Selective choice of passages while neglecting the blood sacrifice passages and the deity of Christ. Pancho Frijole's question hardly demands an answer that is out of context of the rest of scripture.

 

[DavidTree]

Jesus showed the way with his words and acts.

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7)

If we want to make Christ the Lord of our lives, we have to submit our will to God just as He submitted his will to God.
How does this submission occur?
We come humbly to God with a broken heart, genuine repentance, and willing to leave behind the life of the flesh and born into a new life... the life of the spirit.

I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

How does this submission occur?
We come humbly to God with a broken heart, genuine repentance, and willing to leave behind the life of the flesh and born into a new life... the life of the spirit.

How do we come to God in submission?

 

[mikesw]

Reschedule - Session 5 from tomorrow (Dec 5) to next Thursday, December 12.

Several people from our in-person group have informed us that they have prior commitments. This includes the pastor who have been handling the recording and online sessions. We could get a substitute for him, but given the number that cannot make it, we are pushing this session for a week.

Sorry for the late notice.

late notice would be if you posted this on dec 6.
Anyhow. I have found that the timing of events in Rome as helpful.

Maybe the earliest gentile Christian in Rome was before AD33 -- ahead of Paul's Roal-to-Damascus encounter.
Gentiles had first become Christians within the syngagogue experience in Rome
So, many of them had experienced Christ through the difficult practices of Judaism
In AD49, the Jewish Christians were expelled do to infightings with the non-Christian Jews
In AD54, Claudius died and Nero took over. Jewish Christians could return but were not welcomed back by the gentiles
Paul wrote around AD58 to address the behavior of the gentiles.

The time of development of these problems and Paul's letter was around 10 years.

 

[Swordman]

We are back on for tonight at 7:00 PM. We have two sessions scheduled for this month and will wrap up through Romans 3 by the end of next week. Tonight we cover Romans 2:17-3:8 and discuss common Judaism as it relates to the situation in Rome. Next week we will examine Paul's use of his own scriptures (the Jewish scriptures, or the Christian Old Testament).

In early January, I want to do a session on Contextualization - how we apply what we learned in the first six sessions. As stated by Soren Kierkegaard concerning the Bible- "It is I to whom it is speaking, it is I about whom it is speaking." (From For Self-Examination and Judge for Yourself, quoted in Vanhoozer's new book, Mere Christian Hermeneutics). It is all well and good to understand the text within its own context, which is what we are striving to do, but we need to bring it into our own lives for application. That will be the final session for a few months.

It will probably be after the first week of January to let people settle into the new year.

After that, I have some deliverables due plus a trip planned to Turkiye (I am still adjusting to this spelling), so we will pick this back up about mid-year 2025.

For those curious, two of those deliverables are on Romans 9, which is always a fun chapter to discuss.

 

[Complete]

...... If you want to read Romans like the original audience, take on the mindset that Jews lost their chance to be saved and no hope exists for them. Then read with suspicion of Paul's status and of his intent behind the letter. I'm currently writing how this plays out in Rom 1:15 to 2:1. Try to review 1:18b to 31 as it may be read to speak of the history of Israel.

Hello @mikesw,

It is not true, surely, that Jews lost their chance to be saved and that no hope exists for them. Paul tells us that ALL Israel will yet be saved: and today individual Jews and Gentiles who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved, and have equal membership with Gentile believers in the Church which is the body of Christ (Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim, Titus).

At the time of the writing of Romans the Jews of the diaspora had not yet been issued, finally, with the quotation from Isaiah 6, by Paul, and gone away into the darkness of unbelief, upon their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King (Acts 28:25-28).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[mikesw]

Hello @mikesw,

It is not true, surely, that Jews lost their chance to be saved and that no hope exists for them. Paul tells us that ALL Israel will yet be saved: and today individual Jews and Gentiles who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved, and have equal membership with Gentile believers in the Church which is the body of Christ (Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim, Titus).

At the time of the writing of Romans the Jews of the diaspora had not yet been issued, finally, with the quotation from Isaiah 6, by Paul, and gone away into the darkness of unbelief, upon their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King (Acts 28:25-28).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Right Paul was writing to correct the gentile believers' wrong attitude toward Jews. These early chapters were designed to fix some underlying problems of gentiles so they would be ready to hear Paul's plea on behalf of Israel in Romans 9-11. In those three chapters we see how Paul came to understand both the reason for such lacking response by the Jews to the gospel and how God still had remained faithful to his promises to Israel. It is his sharing of his struggle and lament while recognizing and honoring God and his faithfulness.

Thanks for sharing Acts 28:25-28. That fits in with the sad response that Paul shared in Romans 9-11.