Romans - Outside In

[mikesw]

We are back on for tonight at 7:00 PM. We have two sessions scheduled for this month and will wrap up through Romans 3 by the end of next week. Tonight we cover Romans 2:17-3:8 and discuss common Judaism as it relates to the situation in Rome. Next week we will examine Paul's use of his own scriptures (the Jewish scriptures, or the Christian Old Testament).

In early January, I want to do a session on Contextualization - how we apply what we learned in the first six sessions. As stated by Soren Kierkegaard concerning the Bible- "It is I to whom it is speaking, it is I about whom it is speaking." (From For Self-Examination and Judge for Yourself, quoted in Vanhoozer's new book, Mere Christian Hermeneutics). It is all well and good to understand the text within its own context, which is what we are striving to do, but we need to bring it into our own lives for application. That will be the final session for a few months.

It will probably be after the first week of January to let people settle into the new year.

After that, I have some deliverables due plus a trip planned to Turkiye (I am still adjusting to this spelling), so we will pick this back up about mid-year 2025.

For those curious, two of those deliverables are on Romans 9, which is always a fun chapter to discuss.

I have moved on from finishing a draft on Rom 2:1-16 to starting on vv 17-3:2. This forms sort of a shadow of the juridical parable of 1:18-2:1. In both cases Paul, appearing to speak as a teacher of bad news, lets the gentiles think he is exposing bad behavior of Jews. Then in 3:1-2 he turns this around by presenting a positive point.
It became apparent that idea of 2:17-29 being directed to Jews is not well-founded. If we substitute "Jew" with "physician" a different scenario could be given that shows how a negative assessment could be portrayed of a group not present in the audience.

If you call yourself a physician, as a healer of the sick and one who understands the human body and is full of wisdom how to lead a healthy life, do you go out to help on off-hours? If you tell others to eat healthy, are you drinking yourself sick at night? If you help free a person from sickness, do you kill them with debt?

This could be developed better to mimic the dynamics of Rom 2:17-24 in allowing the audience to fill in the answers according to the audience's mindset even though no physician is in the audience. Paul's use of conditional questions allows gentiles to assume Paul has a negative view of Jews in agreement with their rejection. However, Paul gives ambiguous points about Jews and Christian gentiles in vv 25-29. It appears negative to the person who only finds Jews as failing but is positive or neutral when expecting Jews are obeying the law or, in vv 28-29, where a Jew has become a follower of Jesus.
In 3:1-2, Paul asserts a positive sense that cannot be denied by gentiles who accept the scriptural testimony of who the Messiah would be.

Another point about the conditional interrogatory in a broad sense of 2:17-24 is that the if-clause consists of vv 17-20 and then vv 21-24 creates a synthesis of questions that act as a self-evaluation of the figurative Jew being put on display before the readers. The brief sense reads as "if you call yourself a Jew, are you consistent to that designation?"

The purpose for this passage has been rather obscure, especially since many view already see gentile sin exposed in 1:18-32 and Jewish sin exposed in 2:1-16 such that any further condemnation of Jewish sin would be redundant. The apparent reason in my reading is that Paul lets the gentiles vent against Jews even though the real problem was the non-Christian Jews that left a bad image of Jews in the eyes of the gentiles. Paul then is introducing the problem of behavior of those Jews in verses 25-27 while giving a subtle affirmation about Jewish Christians in verses 28-29.

 

[mikesw]

Oops. I needed to clarify the worst wording -- "This could be developed better to mimic the dynamics of Rom 2:17-24"

I meant that this example application of v 17-20, when reworded for a physician could be developed better. The parallel idea would be the idea that someone is speaking about the troubled reputation of a physician. No physician would need to be among the audience hearing this parable. At the same time, there is no real accusation made, only possible issues raised as challenges for the physician to answer (if one were there).

 

[Swordman]

Oops. I needed to clarify the worst wording -- "This could be developed better to mimic the dynamics of Rom 2:17-24"

I meant that this example application of v 17-20, when reworded for a physician could be developed better. The parallel idea would be the idea that someone is speaking about the troubled reputation of a physician. No physician would need to be among the audience hearing this parable. At the same time, there is no real accusation made, only possible issues raised as challenges for the physician to answer (if one were there).

Rewording for a physician may be a good way of developing applications. That is one of the challenges I want to cover in our meeting in January - how do we move the principles of the text to our own context?

Michael Gorman suggests that the individual who Paul has in mind is a Jew. As I said in the session, I tend to disagree. (Having trained under Gorman, we agree more than we disagree, but this is one area of disagreement.) Some scholars see this person as a proselyte, as I suggested. There are a number of reasons for this. There is the direct address in the second person ("you"). This is the way Paul addresses the Gentiles in Romans. In the next chapter (3), when speaking of unfaithful Jews (those who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah), Paul uses the third person (v. 3). When he identifies with them, he uses the first person ("we" or "us").

Like Witherington, I tend to see proselytism as a process, very much like that of the Essenes, which took years of living the community lifestyle before formal entry into the community. (Josephus uses the verbal form of "proselytize") in his description of this. Others see a proselyte as a Gentile who has already been circumcised. In my understanding, circumcision makes one a Jew. Proselytes are those who are in process of becoming a Jew. So I think the "teacher," as I have called him, is a proselyte who has left the Jewish community for the Gentile church. Whether he is circumcised or not is an open question, but he claims to know the law. But the example of King Izates (in Josephus) gives a good example of a proselyte who knows the law and seeks to follow it with his whole heart, but (at least before he met Eliezar) was uncircumcised. Viewing his story from a Jewish perspective (not my own Gentile perspective), I would see him as an uncircumcised proselyte at that point in time, with the law written on his heart.

As a note, I made a mistake in identifying Izates' kingdom of Adiabene last week. That was a client kingdom of the Parthians (remnants of the Persians), not the Romans. The Parthians were a rival to the Roman Empire in the first century, and (like today) fought for control over regions of the middle east.

 

[Swordman]

Just a reminder. Our final session for 2024 is tonight at 7:00 PM EST. We will be covering intertextuality - reading the text within the text.

 

[Swordman]

To all who participated in the series and those who did not - I want to wish you a Merry Christmas.

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has looked favorably on his people and redeemed them.
69 He has raised up a mighty savior for us in the house of his servant David,
70 as he spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,
71 that we would be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us.
72 Thus he has shown the mercy promised to our ancestors, and has remembered his holy covenant,
73 the oath that he swore to our ancestor Abraham, to grant us
74 that we, being rescued from the hands of our enemies, might serve him without fear,
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

(Luke 1:68–75 NRSV)

 

[civic]

To all who participated in the series and those who did not - I want to wish you a Merry Christmas.

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has looked favorably on his people and redeemed them.
69 He has raised up a mighty savior for us in the house of his servant David,
70 as he spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,
71 that we would be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us.
72 Thus he has shown the mercy promised to our ancestors, and has remembered his holy covenant,
73 the oath that he swore to our ancestor Abraham, to grant us
74 that we, being rescued from the hands of our enemies, might serve him without fear,
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

(Luke 1:68–75 NRSV)

Thank you brother have a blessed Holiday. We appreciate what you have brought to our forum with Romans.

 

[Swordman]

Our final session for our initial study of Romans is scheduled for January 9, 2025, at 7:00 EST, weather permitting. (We are expecting a big storm tonight through tomorrow.

This session is a wrap up of the course and we will do a quick review. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss how we read and text and apply it to our own context. Reading it from the perspective of the first audience is important, but the text is alive to us as well. Our goal is to bring the Word of God (Romans in this case) into our own lives.

We will also have a time for feedback to discuss whether the approach we took was effective.

I hope to see you there.

Course Resources: HTRRIC — Lansdowne Alliance Church

Courses: How To Read Romans In Context

www.lansdownealliance.com

 

[Swordman]

Our final session for our initial study of Romans is scheduled for January 9, 2025, at 7:00 EST, weather permitting. (We are expecting a big storm tonight through tomorrow.

This session is a wrap up of the course and we will do a quick review. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss how we read and text and apply it to our own context. Reading it from the perspective of the first audience is important, but the text is alive to us as well. Our goal is to bring the Word of God (Romans in this case) into our own lives.

We will also have a time for feedback to discuss whether the approach we took was effective.

I hope to see you there.

Course Resources: HTRRIC — Lansdowne Alliance Church

Courses: How To Read Romans In Context

www.lansdownealliance.com

I just had a conversation with the pastor of the church hosting the course. Currently, the parking lot is snowed in and we have more snow coming Saturday. He wants to wait to plow it until Saturday, so we are pushing back a week. The new schedule is January 16.

Sorry for the delay.

In the meantime, what do you think about posing some questions here related to the course? I would like to get your opinions concerning how we approached this and whether it was effective.

 

[mikesw]

What type of questions do you have in mind to be asked? I guess that is the first question.

It can help to remind people that the letter has presented many challenges to the interpretation and that it is not unusual to find difficulties in it. Actually, one should address the confusing aspects and dig further if time permits. It could help to ask why the letter might be hard for people today to understand.

You can remind people that there are various views at all stages of the letter. It might help to do two weeks on sections of Romans. Have the people first read the passage and give their impressions. Then introduce some of the options and see if people will respond. Afterwards you can present some different views of passages and maybe have people discuss those options.

I would think also to ask why Paul has seemingly written in a fashion that is difficult for us to unwind. One scholar mentioned that the scholars treat the text as if Paul were writing as a scholar to them such that the reader of Paul has to work through the passage to assess the theological discussion that Paul initiates. The reminder is that the letter is written to the common people in the church.

You can therefore ask what the difficulties of the passage are. Ask what makes it difficult and then answer some reasons it could be so hard to read. Plant a person in the class who will ask good questions such that more discussion could happen. I even think that discussion is a good idea to do after the Sunday morning service, especially for people who want to examine the topic of the message in more detail.

I would hope that people could be drawn into discussion of the passage in deeper ways. Maybe suggest they partner up to discuss the passages under investigation. Also, provide some online resources like older commentaries.

 

[Swordman]

What type of questions do you have in mind to be asked? I guess that is the first question.

It can help to remind people that the letter has presented many challenges to the interpretation and that it is not unusual to find difficulties in it. Actually, one should address the confusing aspects and dig further if time permits. It could help to ask why the letter might be hard for people today to understand.

You can remind people that there are various views at all stages of the letter. It might help to do two weeks on sections of Romans. Have the people first read the passage and give their impressions. Then introduce some of the options and see if people will respond. Afterwards you can present some different views of passages and maybe have people discuss those options.

I would think also to ask why Paul has seemingly written in a fashion that is difficult for us to unwind. One scholar mentioned that the scholars treat the text as if Paul were writing as a scholar to them such that the reader of Paul has to work through the passage to assess the theological discussion that Paul initiates. The reminder is that the letter is written to the common people in the church.

You can therefore ask what the difficulties of the passage are. Ask what makes it difficult and then answer some reasons it could be so hard to read. Plant a person in the class who will ask good questions such that more discussion could happen. I even think that discussion is a good idea to do after the Sunday morning service, especially for people who want to examine the topic of the message in more detail.

I would hope that people could be drawn into discussion of the passage in deeper ways. Maybe suggest they partner up to discuss the passages under investigation. Also, provide some online resources like older commentaries.

Good suggestions. I was thinking about application questions or questions on the methodology. I can post summaries if people are interested.

"Plant a person in the class who will ask good questions such that more discussion could happen." I think that was you right?

 

[mikesw]

Good suggestions.

"Plant a person in the class who will ask good questions such that more discussion could happen." I think that was you right?

I'm the jokester in the class.

 

[Swordman]

Our final class, originally scheduled for last Thursday, is tomorrow, Thursday, 1/16/2024, at 7:00 PM EST.

See you there.

Also, if you attended the class I would like some feedback, since we are planning another one for later this year.

What were the things you liked about the course? What did you not like?

Was the topic too challenging or too easy?

What benefits did you gain (if any) from the course?

Any recommendations?

There will be a post-class survey link after tomorrow that I will post later, but you can give feedback here as well.

Thanks.

 

[Swordman]

We ended the class yesterday and we are preparing for a new series led by another in February. The new series will be on spiritual practices in the church.

If you participated, in the series, the survey can be found at the link below. This will help me with the next one.

Course Resources: HTRRIC — Lansdowne Alliance Church

Courses: How To Read Romans In Context

www.lansdownealliance.com

(Click on the link at the top of the page.)

My goal is to have the next section, Romans 4 to 8 done sometime in the summer.

A few of thoughts of my own are here for anyone considering doing a study like this.

1. A lecture format is not ideal. It seems like people tolerate it for a sermon, as long as you are not going too deep. However, the majority of our participants switched to an online format with just a few on-site. Better is a round-table discussion format. Dialog is much easier and fosters more interaction. This format, which we did for recording purposes, did not lend itself to that.
2. The format lent itself to a lot of slides, probably too many. Keep it simple.
3. There were some gaps because of holidays, weather, and other commitments (ETS and SBL). That made me uncomfortable and I suspect the participants felt the same way.
4. I had several people give me praise for the "cheat-sheets" or quick study guides. These were one- to two-page summaries and guidelines each session for the session topic. Since this seemed to work well, I want to pass it on to anyone who is planning on a similar teaching plan. I got the idea from Michael Gorman, who told me that when he was at Princeton, he kept a one-page cheat sheet on exegesis that he created for his own benefit. This originally evolved into a book. So I decided to do one for each session.
5. Finally, the positive feedback came from those who were used to an academic setting in other areas. Know your audience.

Next time, we are going to switch to a roundtable with a Zoom online for more interaction.

 

[mikesw]

We ended the class yesterday and we are preparing for a new series led by another in February. The new series will be on spiritual practices in the church.

If you participated, in the series, the survey can be found at the link below. This will help me with the next one.

Course Resources: HTRRIC — Lansdowne Alliance Church

Courses: How To Read Romans In Context

www.lansdownealliance.com

(Click on the link at the top of the page.)

My goal is to have the next section, Romans 4 to 8 done sometime in the summer.

A few of thoughts of my own are here for anyone considering doing a study like this.

1. A lecture format is not ideal. It seems like people tolerate it for a sermon, as long as you are not going too deep. However, the majority of our participants switched to an online format with just a few on-site. Better is a round-table discussion format. Dialog is much easier and fosters more interaction. This format, which we did for recording purposes, did not lend itself to that.
2. The format lent itself to a lot of slides, probably too many. Keep it simple.
3. There were some gaps because of holidays, weather, and other commitments (ETS and SBL). That made me uncomfortable and I suspect the participants felt the same way.
4. I had several people give me praise for the "cheat-sheets" or quick study guides. These were one- to two-page summaries and guidelines each session for the session topic. Since this seemed to work well, I want to pass it on to anyone who is planning on a similar teaching plan. I got the idea from Michael Gorman, who told me that when he was at Princeton, he kept a one-page cheat sheet on exegesis that he created for his own benefit. This originally evolved into a book. So I decided to do one for each session.
5. Finally, the positive feedback came from those who were used to an academic setting in other areas. Know your audience.

Next time, we are going to switch to a roundtable with a Zoom online for more interaction.

There is the format for groups has done by the Bible Study Foundation (https://www.bsfinternational.org/). They have people read through a passage or chapter while answering questions posed to them. Then they meet together to discuss their answers. After that, they get a teaching from the same direction found in the questions. Finally, people are supposed to read maybe a 7 page study that ties closely with the questions being presented for the week-long study.
The obvious goal would simply to get people reading scripture. A secondary goal would be to provide a structured study of the book or books in view during the 9 month program. I liked this most during a survey of the history of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Those were more direct in meaning since the scope was more about people and events.
I think they could add a new level of study to better promote exegetical methods in examination of the scriptures. Swordman included some of this in the weekly gatherings. I think he was asking people what they think is happening in certain passages -- to seek understanding of the direction Paul was heading. (Sorry if I forget day-to-day details.) It would help to mention more often when there are significant differences of interpretation. It can help to realize that the interpretations are not settled. After they have read a passage and tried to interpret it, some existing interpretations can be shared. And I said before it would help to point people to commentaries.

 

[Swordman]

There is the format for groups has done by the Bible Study Foundation (https://www.bsfinternational.org/). They have people read through a passage or chapter while answering questions posed to them. Then they meet together to discuss their answers. After that, they get a teaching from the same direction found in the questions. Finally, people are supposed to read maybe a 7 page study that ties closely with the questions being presented for the week-long study.
The obvious goal would simply to get people reading scripture. A secondary goal would be to provide a structured study of the book or books in view during the 9 month program. I liked this most during a survey of the history of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Those were more direct in meaning since the scope was more about people and events.
I think they could add a new level of study to better promote exegetical methods in examination of the scriptures. Swordman included some of this in the weekly gatherings. I think he was asking people what they think is happening in certain passages -- to seek understanding of the direction Paul was heading. (Sorry if I forget day-to-day details.) It would help to mention more often when there are significant differences of interpretation. It can help to realize that the interpretations are not settled. After they have read a passage and tried to interpret it, some existing interpretations can be shared. And I said before it would help to point people to commentaries.

Thanks for the feedback and the suggestion. I am looking at the bsfinternational.org for the church. We may add it to our list of resources.

And thanks for your participation. It seemed like the monitor in the media booth did not pass on all the comments even though we had discussed doing that.

 

[mikesw]

Thanks for the feedback and the suggestion. I am looking at the bsfinternational.org for the church. We may add it to our list of resources.

And thanks for your participation. It seemed like the monitor in the media booth did not pass on all the comments even though we had discussed doing that.

The questionnaire did not provide some answer boxes, such as one for the "how" question at the second to last position. One thing I have hoped for is where people would find insights into the text and share that. It is sort of the concept of each joint supplying the body, but that might not happen where people gather insights -- at least not until they are used to doing that.
In addition to individual study of bible books, I have thought it good to have discussions on the sermon/message shared at the services.

 

[Swordman]

The questionnaire did not provide some answer boxes, such as one for the "how" question at the second to last position. One thing I have hoped for is where people would find insights into the text and share that. It is sort of the concept of each joint supplying the body, but that might not happen where people gather insights -- at least not until they are used to doing that.
In addition to individual study of bible books, I have thought it good to have discussions on the sermon/message shared at the services.

The pastor and I discussed doing a sermon series on Romans in conjunction with this. The problem was I had a deadline with Northern Seminary and he had scheduled other series. We may do the sermon series either in the fall or next year.

Thanks for filling out the questionnaire. I noticed others did not fill out the "how." I think the developer left that section out. Some people responded in email.