Riddle Me This:
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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jeremiah1five
Well-known member
If the answer is contained in those passages you cite then point it out to me because I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I mean, those passages I understand but in what way do you understand those passages with regard to my OP?
The Resurrection of Christ stripped death of its potency. Death no longer reigns supreme. A better question to ask is why hasn't God given us resurrected bodies already? Why must our Resurrection be pushed so far into the future? Why the wait?
In Christian theology, the Resurrection is part of a larger redemptive story that unfolds over time. Scripture presents history as moving toward a climax—what the Bible calls the "fullness of time." God is working out a plan that involves patience, mercy, and the gathering of all who will be saved.
While resurrection is the hope, this present life still has value. It’s a time of growth, choice, and transformation. We develop character, faith, love, and perseverance through our struggles—things that may be deeply meaningful in eternity. In that sense, this time isn’t a delay so much as a necessary phase of formation.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
In order to bring in the many, many sons and daughters of the Lord.
There is a book of life of the lamb that was "written" with the names of the millions and millions of souls to salvation according to the will of God.
All God is doing is following this "book" and stretching it out in the realm of time to make this happen.
Ah, so we agree.
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @jeremiah1five,
Yes, we must still die in this life, regardless of the fact that we have believed God regarding the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, received forgiveness of sins, and the promise of life in Christ Jesus. The reason for that, as far as I can see, is because, as it says in the verses I quoted from 1 Corinthians 15, 'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God', ''For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The difference being that death has now no power to retain us any longer, for we have the promise of life in Christ Jesus, and in God's estimation we are not 'dead' (as the unbelieving are at the death of the body) but are reckoned by God to be, 'asleep in Christ,' awaiting the resurrection out from among dead ones. Death for the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, has lost it's sting, victory is ours in Christ Jesus.
Praise His Holy Name!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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101G
Well-known member
Correct. Christ paid that penalty for sin at the cross. again you're correct in that we sleep, for there are "TWO DEATHS". the first death is natural, or Physical death of the Natural or Physical ..... "BODY", for in the resurrection we will get NEW BODIES. the Soul sleeps or is inactive in this natural or creative world. and out spirits returns to God who gave it in the first place.
again, you're correct because we have victory in Christ Jesus, "OVER ETERNAL DEATH", which is eternal separation from God which is the second death. supportive scripture, Romans 6:8 "Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:" Romans 6:9 "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him." Romans 6:10 "For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Romans 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."
the whole chapter 6 of the book of Romans is a Good read for this post and this topic, as well of the whole book of Romans.
Good spot there complete, keep up the Good work.
101G.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Death has not lost its "sting."
We are still stung by it at the end of our lives, a reality that shouts that death is the result of a wage we must pay when we die, a debt that Christ did not die for under the Law, for the wages of sin is death.
But is this correct?
Jesus Christ died to atone for the sins of God's elect, a people the Father gave to the Son.
And yet there appears to be one unatoned sin which kills us at the end of our lives.
And "who" has the "promise of life"? To whom was this promise made?
Complete
Well-known member
'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ
by the will of God,
according to the promise of life
which is in Christ Jesus,'
(2Tim 1:1)
'But of Him (God) are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us
wisdom, and righteousness,
and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.'
(1Co 1:30=31))
Hello @jeremish1five,
Your reasoning is way off beam. There is no unatoned sin.
'It is Finished!'
In Christ Jesus
Chris
by the will of God,
according to the promise of life
which is in Christ Jesus,'
(2Tim 1:1)
'But of Him (God) are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us
wisdom, and righteousness,
and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.'
(1Co 1:30=31))
Hello @jeremish1five,
Your reasoning is way off beam. There is no unatoned sin.
'It is Finished!'
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Complete
Well-known member
'For from the top of the rocks I see him,
and from the hills I behold him:
lo, the people shall dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations.'
(Num 23:9)
Hello @jeremiah1five,
Jews are always distinguished from Gentiles within scripture are they not? So why do you insist that Gentiles who convert in the New Testament must be Jews? Either by birth or by choice? Surely that differentiation that was deemed necessary by God in Numbers 23. should still apply within New Testament times, and also in this present day.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
and from the hills I behold him:
lo, the people shall dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations.'
(Num 23:9)
Hello @jeremiah1five,
Jews are always distinguished from Gentiles within scripture are they not? So why do you insist that Gentiles who convert in the New Testament must be Jews? Either by birth or by choice? Surely that differentiation that was deemed necessary by God in Numbers 23. should still apply within New Testament times, and also in this present day.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The wages of sin is death.
We die at the end of our lives, through sickness, or accident, etc. Even if we are born-again and receive eternal life we still die. Death is the penalty for sin so what sin kills us and why wasn't it atoned by Jesus? We do still die and death is the penalty for sin. What's going on here?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
First, God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and his Hebrew seed (Abram and Sarai, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob and his wives and Jacob's sons all married within their Hebrew family.)
Later, after fulfilling His own prophecy about Abram's seed going into bondage and delivering them, God made covenant with Jacob's seed, the children of Israel called the Mosaic Covenant. Centuries later Jeremiah prophesied God would make a New Covenant with the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes.) Going back to Abram God made covenant with Abram and his [Hebrew] seed. Do you see what's going on here?
All three covenants are between God and the Hebrew people through Abram. There is no covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Hebrew Scripture (Law, Psalms, and Prophets - 66 "books")
Twice before Jesus was born God scattered the Hebrew people into Gentile lands (Assyrian and Babylonian Conquests.) From the Assyrian Conquest to Jesus' birth about 29-35 generations of Jews were born in Gentile lands. Through rape, concubinage, slavery, and inter-marriages mixed heritage Hebrews were born among the Jews. The Samaritans were the result of these mixed heritage births. In time and without a Temple most Hebrews backslid and growing up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture Jews became Hellenized. Many lost their Hebrew culture and heritage. Many Hebrews assimilated into Gentile/Greek culture. And there were Jews who after several generations grew up Gentile. It wasn't like the Egyptian bondage where Hebrews were settled in one place (Goshen) and under cruel taskmasters cried out to God for deliverance. Under Assyria there were concentrations of Hebrew neighborhoods but for the most part Jews fanned out throughout the Empire.
Babylonia defeated Assyria and eventually conquered them and took the ten tribes into captivity. After several attempts the two tribes of the southern kingdom (Judah) were conquered and taken into captivity and after another 20-25 generations of Hebrew and mixed heritage Hebrew births Cyrus allowed Nehemiah and later, Ezra to return to Palestine (Israel.) It was mostly the two southern kingdom tribes of Judah and Benjamin who returned to Israel. The ten northern kingdom tribes assimilated among Judah and Benjamin and became "lost" ten tribes, but they were not lost in location as they were more seriously in culture and heritage. A remnant of the children of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin returned to Israel. Some ten tribes were among them. A remnant is about 5-10% of a total number of people. In this case, Jews. If for the sake of argument 300,000 Hebrews were taken into captivity by both Assyria and Babylon, and 29-35 generations later what do you suppose the total number would be (and this does not include Hebrews who escaped from the wars or those who settled in Gentile lands in-between Israel proper and Assyria/Babylon. Speaking about Hebrews exiled to Babylon ONLY, if there were 300,000 Hebrews in captivity and a remnant left for Israel the number is about 15-30 thousand Jews (remnant) that returned to Israel in 522 BC. The majority of Jews remained in Assyria, Babylon, and in Gentile lands in-between and this amounted to the majority of Jews that remained where they were throughout Asia Monor (Mesopotamia, Ephesus, Philippi, Corinth, southern Europe, Italy, Egypt, Ethiopia, Libya, Sudan, etc.), millions of Jews were scattered by God EVERYWHERE.
Samaria was the capital of the ten northern kingdom tribes. Mixed heritage Hebrews who populated near this land were called Samaritan by the two southern kingdom tribes (Judah and Benjamin) and those Jews who did not intermingle with Gentiles (Jews who maintained a less tainted bloodline.) By the time of Peter's sermon (Acts 2) all twelve tribes of Jacob were represented in Israel, but millions were scattered throughout the world. History (literature, archaeology, etc.) and the Bible record Samaritans as being offspring of the ten northern kingdom tribes and Gentiles. There is scarcely, if any, record of the two southern kingdom tribes and Gentiles. Where are their mixed heritage descendants? What are they called? Where are they mentioned?
Second, I don't add to the Bible. God has covenant with the Hebrew people. I find no covenant in the Hebrew Scripture (OT) between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. None.
Third, the twelve sons of Jacob and their families (70) transplanted to live with Joseph in Goshen, Egypt for 400 years until their deliverance. That's about 13-16 generations of Hebrews born in that time but the bloodline was very Hebrew. Estimates range from 1-2 million Hebrews led out of Egypt by Moses.
Bible says God delivered Hebrews out of bondage in Egypt - Hebrews, not Gentiles.
Fourth, from 722 BC (Assyria/Babylon) to Jesus' birth about 29-35 generations of Hebrews (including mixed heritage) were born. That's about 3-5 million Jews in the then-known world but the remnant that returned to Israel from Babylon was about 15-30 thousand Jews - including mixed heritage.
Fifth, the Holy Spirit of Promise (Joel) was promised to Israel, not Gentiles.
Sixth, there is no mention, instruction, or command of God under the Law and in the OT the high priest offered sacrifices to atone yearly for the sins of Gentiles.
Seventh, the Church (Greek: "ekklesia" = "called out [ones]") Christ promised to build was promised to and for Israel and in Acts was populated by Jews by the thousands.
Eighth, in the OT God calls Israel a "Great Congregation" and is the forerunner of the "Church" in the NT.
Ninth, in the OT God is betrothed to Israel.
Tenth, God calls Israel His Bride and is betrothed to Israel. Israel is called "woman" and is betrothed to her. The "world" would be considered [another] woman [Babylon, Mother of Harlots] and to claim Jesus Christ loves "the world" means that Christ has a Bride (Israel) but is in love with the world (Harlot Babylon) also and she will also be saved makes Jesus an adulterer.
Based upon the above FACTS "Gentiles" in the NT would have to be mixed heritage Hebrews of Jew-Gentile descent but STILL the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:28-29.)
Based upon the above the Holy Spirit was promised to Israel and is required for salvation, and
Based upon the above each and every born-again experience by men and women since the first century would mean that such persons would have to have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry and is still the seed of Abraham and heir according to the promise and that the teaching that non-Hebrew Gentiles can become Christian and born-again one would have to add to the bible and include non-Hebrew Gentiles into ALL three Hebrew covenants and in my study I find NONE. If God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, I want to know the name of this "Gentile" God made covenant with, who are its prophets, what religious instruction is there, and where is their Bible recording their history, culture, prophets, great men of their covenant(s) etc.
There is NONE.
Explain what you mean by referencing Numbers 23.
101G
Well-known member
yes we die, but the GOOD NEWS is we rise...... (smile). this is the GOOD NEWS. 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," 1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:54 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" 1 Corinthians 15:56 "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Corinthians 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 15:58 "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."
101G.
101G
Well-known member
another ERROR, Roman 10 put an end to that ... READ ROMANS CHAPTER 10. and then go and read Deuteronomy 30:10 "If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul." Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off." Deuteronomy 30:12 "It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?" Deuteronomy 30:13 "Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?"
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN,,,,,,,
Deuteronomy 30:14 "But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."
is it in your MOUTH? Romans 10:8 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;" Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
see J5 the TRUTH is not in your MOUTH, nor your HEART.
if you cannot understand this .... 101G feel sorry for you.
101G.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Answer the question.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
You are so confused. Make up your mind.
Only you can respond by taking both opposing positions in one sentence let alone one post.
Ever heard of antinomian?
You are against God's Word. That flies in the face of your professed claim to Christ.
The Law is still to be obeyed. It is not abolished nor obsolete. And merely claiming it does not make it true. But everyone is free to make mistakes.
101G
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
LOL, did not Christ fulfilled the Law.? yes, so why are you against it?.....
now, listen very carefully, Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"
now, what's your problem?
but since you have a problem ... let's solve it for you. 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, (STOP, READ THAT AGAIN), but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," 1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"
sound doctrine? .... 101G been saying that JESUS is God, do you believe that too? or do you fall into one of the categories listed above. ...... (smile)....
YIKES!101G.
101G
Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all.
for all the old .... try to keep law observers, NOW HEAR THIS.... THE CAPTIAN IS SPEAKING. .........
Hebrews 7:11 "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?" Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Hebrews 7:13 "For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar." Hebrews 7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood." Hebrews 7:15 "And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest," Hebrews 7:16 "Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life." Hebrews 7:17 "For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Hebrews 7:18 "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." Hebrews 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." Hebrews 7:20 "And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:" Hebrews 7:21 "(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
" Hebrews 7:22 "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." Hebrews 7:23 "And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:" Hebrews 7:24 "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." Hebrews 7:25 "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:26 "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;" Hebrews 7:27 "Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself." Hebrews 7:28 "For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore."
The OLD WAY and the OLD law is done away...... R.I.P.
101G.
for all the old .... try to keep law observers, NOW HEAR THIS.... THE CAPTIAN IS SPEAKING. .........
Hebrews 7:11 "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?" Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Hebrews 7:13 "For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar." Hebrews 7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood." Hebrews 7:15 "And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest," Hebrews 7:16 "Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life." Hebrews 7:17 "For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Hebrews 7:18 "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." Hebrews 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." Hebrews 7:20 "And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:" Hebrews 7:21 "(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
" Hebrews 7:22 "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." Hebrews 7:23 "And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:" Hebrews 7:24 "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." Hebrews 7:25 "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:26 "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;" Hebrews 7:27 "Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself." Hebrews 7:28 "For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore." The OLD WAY and the OLD law is done away...... R.I.P.
101G.
Complete
Well-known member
'For from the top of the rocks I see him,
and from the hills I behold him:
lo, the people shall dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations.'
(Num 23:9)
Hello @jeremiah1five,
It is clear from the verse above that God does not want the people of Israel to be reckoned among the nations: and the Scriptures evidence the fact that the Holy Spirit, (Who is the author of the Scriptures), refers to 'Jews' or 'Gentiles' (i.e., either individually or corporately from among the nations, who are not Jews by birth ).
So when Paul was sent out as the Apostle to the Gentiles, though his first destination was to the local Synagogue, (for the Jew always had prior place), he then spoke to the Gentiles, those who attended the synagogue as converts to Judaism, and those beyond the synagogue doors also. Preaching the gospel that he had received from the risen Christ (Gal. 1:11 & 2:7). When Paul refers to either Jew or Gentile, he always tells us which he is speaking to, He does not tell us that he is speaking to Gentiles when in fact he is speaking to whoever is of Jewish descent among them, or to those among them who are in fact, proselytes, ( converts to Judaism ) and not therefore Gentiles: as you jeremiah1five assert that he does.
For Paul obeyed the known will of God, that, ' ... the people (i.e., of Israel) , shall not be reckoned among the nations' (Gentles).
Perhaps you should obey this injunction too: and not deprive the Gentile of the hope of salvation. in & through Christ Jesus their risen and ascended Lord as you do.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Good to hear. Now, I don't have to obey the Law that commands me to not have other gods before me!GINOLJC, to all.
for all the old .... try to keep law observers, NOW HEAR THIS.... THE CAPTIAN IS SPEAKING. .........
Hebrews 7:11 "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?" Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Hebrews 7:13 "For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar." Hebrews 7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood." Hebrews 7:15 "And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest," Hebrews 7:16 "Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life." Hebrews 7:17 "For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Hebrews 7:18 "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." Hebrews 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." Hebrews 7:20 "And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:" Hebrews 7:21 "(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
The OLD WAY and the OLD law is done away...... R.I.P.
101G.
You, too. Don't obey the Law. You can have all the gods you want in your life. The more the merrier.
