Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
They were caused to believe the Gospel coming from a preacher of the Gospel
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Who says a preacher of the Gospel knew what he was preaching.
Today there are approximately 45,000 different Christian denominations world wide and if you studied them all you would be shocked at how many variances of understanding there are being taught from the scriptures.....
Lets not mention that assorted translations that make it right here in the pages of BAM that can pull meanings away from the next.
So your statement is a non starter IMO for a preacher might be you or me and which of us would "they" believe for the truth on faith?
brightfame52
Active Member
A preacher sent by God? Like Paul?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You did not limit things to biblical preachers... you worded it open ended as if it could include even Billy Graham or Paula Jones.
But ya want to stick with the bible.... NAME THEM cause there were other religious leaders who taugh incorrectly ... one
being Nicodemus.
So using 2000 year old preachers... use the name.
Complete
Active Member
'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called:
and whom He called, them He also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.'
(Rom. 8:29-30)
Hello @civic,
The pre-destined goal of God, in relation to all He fore-knew, is that they should be, 'conformed to the image of His Son'. Those so 'fore-known', and 'pre-destined' for that purpose, were then called, justified and glorified. Without fore-knowledge, God would not have fore-known who would believe to the saving of their soul, and who would not; therefore could not have pre-destined anyone to be conformed to the image of His Son, prior to their doing so. Am I correct in my thinking?
In Christ Jesus
Chris
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called:
and whom He called, them He also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.'
(Rom. 8:29-30)
Hello @civic,
The pre-destined goal of God, in relation to all He fore-knew, is that they should be, 'conformed to the image of His Son'. Those so 'fore-known', and 'pre-destined' for that purpose, were then called, justified and glorified. Without fore-knowledge, God would not have fore-known who would believe to the saving of their soul, and who would not; therefore could not have pre-destined anyone to be conformed to the image of His Son, prior to their doing so. Am I correct in my thinking?
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Oh so you think a preacher of the gospel has the power to irresistibly cause men to believe?
brightfame52
Active Member
A preacher of the Gospel is an instrument in Gods hand to cause one of His sheep to believe i.e 1 Cor 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
So where is it stated they can irresistibly make unbelievers believe?
brightfame52
Active Member
Faith comes as a result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit—He quickens our hearts to believe.” Man cannot believe whilst he remains dead in sins, therefore, believing comes as a gift given by grace. “Apart from the new birth, there can be no true faith. Therefore, faith, though it manifests itself in action, comes as a result of God's work in us. God grants us faith and that faith is evidenced by our believing the Gospel (and no other) and walking in the good works that ‘God hath before ordained that we should walk in them’ (Eph. 2:10).https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-25 12 p
Behold
Active Member
The Holy Spirit does not "cause" you to do anything.
You are a free will moral agent, and its your decision to do what you do, think what you think, and believe what you believe.
God does not cause or force anyone to have faith in Christ...........He Requires it before He will save you.
Every person, as Paul Teaches in Romans, "has the measure of FAITH"....... we are born with it.
This is why people BELIEVE in Scientology, or in the Buddha, or in The Theory of Evolution.......or in ALLAH.
As that is where they have chosen to place their God given faith.
God says to us all.....>"""come to JESUS......place YOUR FAITH in JESUS""".. and God will save you.
You decide where you place YOUR faith........, and God honors your choice now and in eternity.
Bottom line.
brightfame52
Active Member
Absolutely False, Faith is in fact the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22
Behold
Active Member
Nonsense.
A SINNER, gives their faith in Christ to God.
They dont have the Spirit yet.. and they still BELIEVE.....>>"while we were YET SINNERS"....."God saved us".
"Jesus came to save SINNERS"......and sinners are able to BELIEVE in Jesus, and that is why God will save them.
The Holy Spirit's part in this is to open your heart to the TRUTH<.. to "bring you to the knowledge of the TRUTH".... so that you can then BELIEVE IT with your faith.......or NOT.
You are teaching, as usual, a brain dead hyper calvinism religious cult theology, that falsely teaches that God has to give you the new birth, before He forgives your sin......so that you can afterwards "have faith".
That is Theological insanity, that is anti-Gospel and anti-faith.
Whereas, the NT Teaches, that you have to give YOUR faith to God, for Him to count it as your Righteousness, so that HE will THEN forgive your sin, and give you the new birth.
Your Brain, your ability to think, ... just like all Hyper Calvinists, is so warped that you can't even understand what im showing you while the other believers here read it and it makes SIMPLE and perfect sense to them......but not to you, as that is what Calvinism does to you mind.
Calvinsim, especially the Hyper version, causes you to see "elect" and "predestined" in the Bible, where its not found at all.
Calvinism damages your thinking so that you can't comprehend simple theological truth., and all you are left with is trying to drag real Christians into the cult of John Calvinism, the Hyper version.
CHRISTians lead people to CHRIST.
Calvinists lead Christians or Non, ... into mind blinding Calvinism.
These are not the same ministry, and the one that is not of GOD, is very obvious to a REAL Christian who isn't deceived.
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brightfame52
Active Member
No its not, its the truth. B4 regeneration or new birth man is in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and guess what ? They which be in the flesh cannot please God, Faith in Christ pleases God, so the unregenerate cannot do it.
Faith is required so that one might be regenerated i.e. born of God
John 1:12–13But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Those who are not believers cannot be made alive
Those who do not believe will not see life
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe
brightfame52
Active Member
Absolutely False, thats works. Faith requires regeneration, life from the dead, b4 regeneration or born of God, we are in the flesh and cant please God Rom 8:8
TibiasDad
Active Member
Then is it the Spirit’s fault that some don’t have as much faith as others?
The opportunity for faith is always a gift, because God didn’t have to offer salvation to anyone. That’s one reason why it is Grace! He gives opportunity to believe, and belief grows as we continue to believe. That is when it becomes a fruit, a product of the Spirit!
Doug
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
God’s spirit enables us to make good choices, and good choices enable us to be more receptive to further outpouring of the Spirit.
Let me insist on this: you are discussing in these threads a hen-or-egg problem.
There is no single characteristic of a human being, even free will, that escapes God’s sovereignty, wisdom and love.
The elephant in the room in these discussions is not why people are saved, but why people are condemned to eternal torment. Thats what you are unwilling to address, because it would render both Calvinism and Arminism equally absurd.
Universalism is the only theological stance that makes sense of both predestination and free choice.
Unless you are prepared to abandon the idea of eternal torment, you will be trapped in the same old debate.
Let me insist on this: you are discussing in these threads a hen-or-egg problem.
There is no single characteristic of a human being, even free will, that escapes God’s sovereignty, wisdom and love.
The elephant in the room in these discussions is not why people are saved, but why people are condemned to eternal torment. Thats what you are unwilling to address, because it would render both Calvinism and Arminism equally absurd.
Universalism is the only theological stance that makes sense of both predestination and free choice.
Unless you are prepared to abandon the idea of eternal torment, you will be trapped in the same old debate.
The fundamental problem you present is clearly a poor description or explanation of God's sovereignty. God's Spirit is not enabling; rather God's Spirit is supporting and guiding.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
My intention, Jim, is not to describe or explain God’s sovereignty.
I am just trying to point out to a fact: that God enables us to walk, eat, remember, analyze, exist.
Everything is a gift from Him including our faith.
@brightfame52 is correct when he says that we need God’s grace to quicken our spirit and respond to the Gospel.
This does not deny free will.
Does admitting that we need God’s grace to memorize denies human memory?
