Redeemed from unbelief !

[brightfame52]

If every sin of every believer has been atoned for, would it not be right to conclude that the sin of unbelief, that sin which for so long kept the believer from God, and evidenced his dead spiritual state, has also been taken out of the way? If not, then the sin of unbelief has not been done away with, not even for the elect, and there is no atonement for it. The penalty it has incurred has not been paid, and, therefore, no one can possibly come to God, for the sin of unbelief reigns supreme, being untouched by the blood of Christ.https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-38

 

[FreeInChrist]

If every sin of every believer has been atoned for, would it not be right to conclude that the sin of unbelief, that sin which for so long kept the believer from God, and evidenced his dead spiritual state, has also been taken out of the way?

What are you talking about. If every sin of "every believer" has been atoned for..." That sin of unbelief, that sin which for so long kept the believer from God" Jesus did not suffer for only the believer. There was no need for the crucifixion if that were the reason.... There was no reason for a "public" display of the entire trial to tomb as it were if it were only for the believer.....

There would have been no need for any of it because the believers already believed and you say it was obly for them he suffered.... That is backwards....... period. UNLESS...

You finally understand that as the thief on the cross came to belief at the last minute and others who were witnessing things did too... that the reason was the last effort to make people understand... on their own.... and believe.

If not, then the sin of unbelief has not been done away with, not even for the elect, and there is no atonement for it. The penalty it has incurred has not been paid, and, therefore, no one can possibly come to God, for the sin of unbelief reigns supreme, being untouched by the blood of Christ.https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-38

 

[brightfame52]

What are you talking about.

Obviously nothing you can comprehend

 

[FreeInChrist]

Obviously nothing you can comprehend

Oh, I understand alright.

 

[Kampioen]

If every sin of every believer has been atoned for, would it not be right to conclude that the sin of unbelief, that sin which for so long kept the believer from God, and evidenced his dead spiritual state, has also been taken out of the way? If not, then the sin of unbelief has not been done away with, not even for the elect, and there is no atonement for it. The penalty it has incurred has not been paid, and, therefore, no one can possibly come to God, for the sin of unbelief reigns supreme, being untouched by the blood of Christ.https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-38

The atonement covers the sin of unbelief, but it doesn't provide faith. That is preveniently up to the individual. Then God effectually saves.

 

[civic]

The atonement covers the sin of unbelief, but it doesn't provide faith. That is preveniently up to the individual. Then God effectually saves.

You are spot on brother. I added this section to my Psalm 22 thread


hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV

Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV

The Mercy Seat (Hilastērion): In the Old Testament Tabernacle, the High Priest never entered the Holy of Holies to be struck by God; he entered to sprinkle blood upon the Mercy Seat. This was the specific place where God met with man in grace. Therefore, when Paul uses this word in Romans 3:25, he is identifying the Cross as the new "Meeting Place." The Atonement is not a record of God striking the Priest, but of the Priest providing the Purification necessary for God and man to be reconciled. If the Mercy Seat was the place where the glory of God dwelt between the Cherubim, then the Cross is where the glory of God’s love is most clearly seen—not in the venting of wrath, but in the provision of presence.

Some may argue that Romans 3:25 and other texts require the Father to pour wrath on the Son. However, careful exegesis and attention to the relational language of the Trinity suggest these passages describe reconciliation and covenant faithfulness rather than punitive wrath directed at Christ. the "Atonement Cover" (Hilastērion) is the Mercy Seat. In the OT, that was the place where God met with man in mercy, not the place where He struck the High Priest. This reinforces the fact that the Atonement is about reconciliation and meeting, not "punitive wrath

The Necessity of Faith: While the Atonement is a finished work of Christ, it is not a "mechanical" or "automatic" transaction. Just as the Israelite had to look at the Bronze Serpent to be healed, the sinner must look to Christ in Faith. The Atonement provides the remedy for the whole world, but that remedy only produces pardon, remission, and lifewhen it is personally received

 

[Kampioen]

Christs redemptive death redeems the elect vessel of mercy from or out of ignorance , darkness and unbelief Col 1:12-14

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
The power of darkness symbolizes, spiritual ignorance, blindness of heart, and unbelief.
Gill writes:


Man by nature are locked in unbelief Rom 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So we must be rescued, delivered out from the prison of unbelief, which Christ the stronger Man has accomplished for Gods elect.

Christ unlocked the gate of unbelief. We must still go through. Otherwise people would suddenly have faith all across the world as soon as Christ died/resurrected.

 

[brightfame52]

The atonement covers the sin of unbelief, but it doesn't provide faith.

It does both, the New Covenant in Christs Blood covers both, for the providing of Faith is proof that His death covered unbelief..

 

[brightfame52]

Christ unlocked the gate of unbelief. We must still go through.

False, Christ brings out the prisoners Isa 42:7

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

You want to give man credit for what Christ should have all the credit and praise for.

 

[civic]

False, Christ brings out the prisoners Isa 42:7

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

You want to give man credit for what Christ should have all the credit and praise for.

1 John 2:2- not only OUR SINS ( believers) but for the sins of all the world ( all unbelievers ).

this verse alone refutes your OP.

 

[civic]

Only the elect who have their conscience purged from dead works unto the Spiritual worship of the Living God.

and another one

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2;for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3;This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4;who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

 

[civic]

It does both, the New Covenant in Christs Blood covers both, for the providing of Faith is proof that His death covered unbelief..

It’s time for some education on propitiation

In 1 John 4:10 hilasmos/ translated as propitiation in some translations there cannot mean sooth anger and must mean something else( Expiation) than what is taught in christendom. God says love 3 times in that passage so it cannot mean anger being soothed. It means expiation as in covering for sin.

I always go to Christ who is God as my primary source of truth. His teaching must not contradict anyone else in scripture. If there seems to be a contradiction then it is with mans understanding on the topic not from Jesus teaching. He is God and He is the authority on all things. Not once did Jesus even hint Hid death was propitiation as taught by the reformers meaning appeasing an angry deity- that concept is pagan. That is why propitiation is not a good translation, expiation is the better translation and meaning in 1 John.

How did He view His own death- the atonement ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation

The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.

If we were to read propitiation ( appease an angry god as the meaning ) in 1 John 4:10look at how absurd if reads.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to appease our angry god , to appease His anger, to appease his angry self etc.......for our sins.

That makes no sense at all theologically , grammatically or contextually. It’s a contradiction, an oxymoron.


These translations properly convey the meaning of hilasmos.

Berean Standard Bible
And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

New International Version
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

New Living Translation
This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.

Christian Standard Bible
Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In this is love: it was not that we loved God, but he has loved us, and he sent us his Son, the atonement for the sake of our sins.

Contemporary English Version
Real love isn't our love for God, but his love for us. God sent his Son to be the sacrifice by which our sins are forgiven.

Good News Translation
This is what love is: it is not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the means by which our sins are forgiven.

International Standard Version
This is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Majority Standard Bible
And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

New American Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.

NET Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

New Revised Standard Version
In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

New Heart English Bible
In this is love, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Weymouth New Testament
This is love indeed--we did not love God, but He loved us and sent His Son to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

World English Bible
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Here are the only three uses of “propitiation” in the KJV:

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation(G2435) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26)

“And he is the propitiation (G2434) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation(G2434) for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

As we will see, this is a very poor word to use to translate the original Greek.

Here are the definitions given for the Greek words used for propitiation:

Original Word Definitions

G2434 ἱλασμός hilasmos hil-as-mos’
a root word; n m;
AV-propitiation 2; 2
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

G2435 ἱλαστήριον hilasterion hil-as-tay’-ree-on
from a derivative of G2433; n n;
AV-propitiation 1, mercyseat 1; 2
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
1a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
1b) an expiatory sacrifice
1c) an expiatory victim

Since G2435 comes from G2433 we should look at that word:

2433 ἱλάσκομαι hilaskomai hil-as’-kom-ahee
middle voice from the same as 2436; v;
AV-be merciful 1, make reconciliation 1; 2
1) to render one’s self, to appease, conciliate to one’s self
1a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
1b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for

There is only one other verse that uses “hilasterion” (G2435):

“And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; (G2435) of which we cannot now speak particularly.” (Heb 9:5)

That verse suggests that “hilasterion” is a place where mercy is given – quite different from the usual meaning of propitiation.

So, if that word had been used in Romans 3:25, would that give the verse a different meaning?

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiationmercy seat …”

It literally means “a place or means of reconciliation, a place where atonement or unity and at-one-ment takes place.”

The only two verses that use “hilaskomai” (G2433) are:

“And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful (G2433) to me a sinner.” (Luke 18:13)

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for (G2433) the sins of the people.” (Heb 2:17)

Those verses do not suggest anything like propitiation. What are the effects of the translation of a word meaning mercy seat as propitiation? They can’t be good.

 

[civic]

The Mercy Seat continued:

If the Cross was not a place of "Divine Punishment" where the Trinity was divided, we must ask: What actually happened to our sin? To understand this, we must move our hearts and minds away from the modern "Courtroom" and back into the biblical "Sanctuary." The Apostles did not use the language of a criminal execution; they used the language of Purification (Katharismos) and the Mercy Seat (Hilastērion). In the Old Covenant, the blood was never intended to "calm an angry God"; it was intended to cleanse a defiled people so that a Holy God could dwell among them. In this section, we will see how Jesus, our Great High Priest, did not die to satisfy a need for violence, but to provide the ultimate Expiation—the washing away of sin that allows us to stand in the presence of the Father, holy and blameless.

Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.

Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)

Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)

Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many

hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV

Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV

The Mercy Seat (Hilastērion): In the Old Testament Tabernacle, the High Priest never entered the Holy of Holies to be struck by God; he entered to sprinkle blood upon the Mercy Seat. This was the specific place where God met with man in grace. Therefore, when Paul uses this word in Romans 3:25, he is identifying the Cross as the new "Meeting Place." The Atonement is not a record of God striking the Priest, but of the Priest providing the Purification necessary for God and man to be reconciled. If the Mercy Seat was the place where the glory of God dwelt between the Cherubim, then the Cross is where the glory of God’s love is most clearly seen—not in the venting of wrath, but in the provision of presence.

Some may argue that Romans 3:25 and other texts require the Father to pour wrath on the Son. However, careful exegesis and attention to the relational language of the Trinity suggest these passages describe reconciliation and covenant faithfulness rather than punitive wrath directed at Christ. the "Atonement Cover" (Hilastērion) is the Mercy Seat. In the OT, that was the place where God met with man in mercy, not the place where He struck the High Priest. This reinforces the fact that the Atonement is about reconciliation and meeting, not "punitive wrath

The Necessity of Faith: While the Atonement is a finished work of Christ, it is not a "mechanical" or "automatic" transaction. Just as the Israelite had to look at the Bronze Serpent to be healed, the sinner must look to Christ in Faith. The Atonement provides the remedy for the whole world, but that remedy only produces pardon, remission, and life when it is personally received.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

1 John 2:2- not only OUR SINS ( believers) but for the sins of all the world ( all unbelievers ).

This world is redeemed from unbelief. Also its forgiven and reconciled to God

 

[civic]

This world is redeemed from unbelief. Also its forgiven and reconciled to God

no one is redeemed/saved until they believe

next fallacy......

 

[brightfame52]

no one is redeemed/saved until they believe

Thats false and unscriptural

 

[civic]

Thats false and unscriptural

Projecting again

 

[brightfame52]

Projecting again

A Person Christ died for is redeemed by His Death b4 they were born legally. Heb 9:12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Redemption here the greek word :lytrōsis:

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

They are born delivered from the penalty of sin which is death.

Thats Christs work, nothing man does or dont do can change it Ecc 3:14

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

 

[civic]

A Person Christ died for is redeemed by His Death b4 they were born legally. Heb 9:12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Redemption here the greek word :lytrōsis:

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

They are born delivered from the penalty of sin which is death.

Thats Christs work, nothing man does or dont do can change it Ecc 3:14

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

no one is redeemed or saved before they first hear the gospel, then believe the gospel. I already corrected it with plenty of scriptures that expose your view as unbiblical.

 

[brightfame52]

no one is redeemed or saved before they first hear the gospel, then believe the gospel

Sure they are, everyone Christ died for is redeemed from the penalty of sin. Heb 9:12, thats why some day they will hear the Gospel and believe.