Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[Eternally-Grateful]

The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture.

So God is limited in what he is able to do

Got it

 

[civic]

for a relational God could you imagine how horrific this would be.

its impossible for a solitary god to be both relational and love. its an oxymoron. but the reality is the unitarian, modalist and hybrid types will deny it, deflect and not face the obvious flaws with their own theology.

I always say false doctrine flows from the top down. When you are wrong about Gods nature/character it will trickle down into all areas of doctrine. We see that in this thread and most every other one when Discussing the Father or the Son in all the threads.

 

[civic]

if the word (Jesus) was God.

and if he was with God.

and they were there at the begining (creation)

Yes the Word was not alone with Himself. He was with another who is also identified as God, yet not the same person as God. John 1:1 could read and be understood this way:

In the beginning was the Word ( Son ) the Son was with the Father ( God ) and the Son ( Word ) was God ( not the Father ).

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think at one point in time when he was created prior to the fall he knew what love was but maybe I'm wrong. The reason being after the fall he perverted love and it was all self centered and gratified himself whereas Gods love is focused on others, not self. Thats why the Tri-Unity of God is a perfect love. The Father loves the Son, the Holy Spirit. The Son loves the Father, Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit loves the Father, Son. A perfect triangle of love. And the husband loves the wife, children, the wife love the husband children, the children love the Father, Mother. A perfect Triangle of love that reflects Gods divine love. The family was designed to reflect God. Just like the church family is to reflect God. Jesus said all men will know you are my disciples by your love for one another. The way we love reflects how we love God. Its a mirror image.

Jesus is John 17 talks about that eternal existing love between the Father/ Son before creation and the love being passed on to the disciples.

I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

This is a great topic but I fear it will fall upon many deaf ears. @Red Baker

Absolutely. Great topic that few know and less want to know. It would change them too much. They like where they are at.

 

[Red Baker]

so before creation. When God said LET US...

Who were US?

Fair question and a very good one to ponder~ The only answer to that question and be scriptural is the elect angels! Who were created to be ministering spirits to God's elect. I do understand "Us" is a first-person plural pronoun, while "me" is a first-person singular pronoun. The specific context and purpose will determine whether to use "us" or "me". Since "us" was chosen by the Spirit, it could only be referring to the elect angles, and they could see those to whom God was making them ministering spirits to care for. One word and one verse cannot overthrown multiple scriptures teaching another truth other than what folks desire to use a particular scripture for. We must seek the sense and make sure we have a continue flow of truth.

Hebrews 1:14​

“Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”

Jesus in his Deity as God was speaking to the elect angles. That's the only sense that will flow with all scriptures. Thank you for the verse, (which I already knew it was coming up) and showing that you are searching and considering and testing others position, which we all should do.

I'm off the grid for a while...RB

 

[civic]

Fair question and a very good one to ponder~ The only answer to that question and be scriptural is the elect angels! Who were created to be ministering spirits to God's elect. I do understand "Us" is a first-person plural pronoun, while "me" is a first-person singular pronoun. The specific context and purpose will determine whether to use "us" or "me". Since "us" was chosen by the Spirit, it could only be referring to the elect angles, and they could see those to whom God was making them ministering spirits to care for. One word and one verse cannot overthrown multiple scriptures teaching another truth other than what folks desire to use a particular scripture for. We must seek the sense and make sure we have a continue flow of truth.

Hebrews 1:14​

“Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”

Jesus in his Deity as God was speaking to the elect angles. That's the only sense that will flow with all scriptures. Thank you for the verse, (which I already knew it was coming up) and showing that you are searching and considering and testing others position, which we all should do.

I'm off the grid for a while...RB

You are so wrong on so many levels.

For starters man was created in the image of God, not angels so the Plural US/OUR image CANNOT include the angels. Mistake number 1.

Mistake number 2- The rest of your assumptions in your post are just that- assumptions built upon a false premise on the plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26.

Have you ever wondered why the angels are not redeemable after they sinned ?

Here is a hint- they were not created in the image of God like man. So they angels CANNOT be included in Genesis 1:26.

next fallacy

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I am confused.

Can you just say yes or no that God YHWH, or Jehovah if you prefer, was one single person, one single person with three parts in one, and not three separate that make up the Godhead that comes from the King James Translation?

why do you keep saying from the King Jimmy?

 

[civic]

Like I repeat often. False doctrine/teaching flows downhill from ones errant views of God. Its the trickle down effect. When you are wrong about Gods nature and character it will show itself in the rest of ones beliefs.

When you abandon the True Eternal God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit you are left with nothing but false doctrines to go along with your false god.

Error begets error.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

My point remains on why you think someone who is the Messiah, head of the Church, and Lord Christ has to be God.

because of he was not God. he was mere man. and we are still in our sin.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You can save you posts as a Draft, (see upper right corner of your post) as you are typing it.

thats good to know.. thank you

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@civic

Since I have answered you a few times already, let me ask you to take the scriptures and show me how Jesus became the Son of God before he was born of Mary in Bethlehem, thereby we can eliminate all of verbiage that will continue until YOU put forth proof of what you think I should be believing.

I'm laboring to protect our Lord's Deity as the eternal God, do you think God is not please with that, why even contend with me? So, you can end it quickly by proving your point with scripture, for I will submit to them not to men's false teaching on eternal generation of Jesus Christ as a Son before Genesis 1:1. Which makes him a begotten "god" just as the World translation of the Jehovah False Witnesses claim.

Before abraham was, I AM

in the Greek. it literally means I always was. or I always existed.

 

[praise_yeshua]

thats good to know.. thank you

Most of the responses are auto saved as you type them. The forum system does it by default. It is tied to your cookie. If you don't allow them, it probably will not work.

 

[civic]

@civic

Since I have answered you a few times already, let me ask you to take the scriptures and show me how Jesus became the Son of God before he was born of Mary in Bethlehem, thereby we can eliminate all of verbiage that will continue until YOU put forth proof of what you think I should be believing.

I'm laboring to protect our Lord's Deity as the eternal God, do you think God is not please with that, why even contend with me? So, you can end it quickly by proving your point with scripture, for I will submit to them not to men's false teaching on eternal generation of Jesus Christ as a Son before Genesis 1:1. Which makes him a begotten "god" just as the World translation of the Jehovah False Witnesses claim.

Projecting again.

Your belief is the same as the JW and Unitarian in John 1:1.

You believe one of two things about John 1:1

1- the word is impersonal , a thought , idea or expression

2- the word is the same person as God.

Both are heretical views.

Next fallacy

 

[praise_yeshua]

Like I repeat often. False doctrine/teaching flows downhill from ones errant views of God. Its the trickle down effect. When you are wrong about Gods nature and character it will show itself in the rest of ones beliefs.

When you abandon the True Eternal God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit you are left with nothing but false doctrines to go along with your false god.

Error begets error.

No doubt about it.

"elect angels"....

The argument for US in Hebrew, Greek and English are all the same

Personally, I would have never pegged him saying this. It does explain several things. Do you think @Jim is the same way?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Fair question and a very good one to ponder~ The only answer to that question and be scriptural is the elect angels! Who were created to be ministering spirits to God's elect. I do understand "Us" is a first-person plural pronoun, while "me" is a first-person singular pronoun. The specific context and purpose will determine whether to use "us" or "me". Since "us" was chosen by the Spirit, it could only be referring to the elect angles, and they could see those to whom God was making them ministering spirits to care for. One word and one verse cannot overthrown multiple scriptures teaching another truth other than what folks desire to use a particular scripture for. We must seek the sense and make sure we have a continue flow of truth.

Hebrews 1:14​

“Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”

Jesus in his Deity as God was speaking to the elect angles. That's the only sense that will flow with all scriptures. Thank you for the verse, (which I already knew it was coming up) and showing that you are searching and considering and testing others position, which we all should do.

I'm off the grid for a while...RB

angels had to be created at one time.. you still have an eternity past with God by himself.

so you really did not answer the question

 

[Peterlag]

because of he was not God. he was mere man. and we are still in our sin.

Where do you see "mere man" in the "son of God and the Messiah" to Israel?

 

[civic]

Where do you see "mere man" in the "son of God and the Messiah" to Israel?

Are you insinuating Jesus is more than just a man ? If so who or what ?

 

[Peterlag]

Are you insinuating Jesus is more than just a man ? If so who or what ?

Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

 

[civic]

Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

I’m called a son of God so what’s the difference ?

Even a sinless man can only redeem his own life but never anyone else. That sinless man cannot save anyone except himself .

Psalm 49:7- No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God.

So your view of Jesus fails the biblical test.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Where do you see "mere man" in the "son of God and the Messiah" to Israel?

Well if he is not god and he is not an angel. The only think left is mere man