Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[Red Baker]

In His diety, in the OT it says he was sent by the father.

so how can this happen?

Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Lord God. is this not the father?

Also. When jesus walked. he said he did what the father told him. If Jesus is the father. did he talk to himself? and then who is the spirit?

The LORD God is God period. In a lesser degree, God was a father to Israel and his people, but in a greater degree He is the Father of Jesus Christ according to Luke one. etc.

God the Father is more a NT teaching/phrase than OT ~ which is clearly seen and understood by most.

If Jesus is the father. did he talk to himself? and then who is the spirit?

Only in his Deity as God is he the Everlasting Father of all things.

The Holy Spirit is God without qualifications. In the Godhead they are ONE in essence, etc. We give each one their due worship, respect, fear, and honor as God.

 

[Peterlag]

@Peterlag

Just like Genesis 1:1 does not say..............“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

It said whatever you and others want it to say.

2 Peter 3:16​

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

Logic and reason does not apply when debating you because you make up whatever you need as you go along.

1 Timothy 6:15 does not say Jesus is God.

Genesis 1:1 does say...“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

cc: @Runningman

@Peterlag

Just like Genesis 1:1 does not say..............“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

It said whatever you and others want it to say.

2 Peter 3:16​

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

Logic and reason does not apply when debating you because you make up whatever you need as you go along.

1 Timothy 6:15 does not say Jesus is God.

Genesis 1:1 does say...“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
cc: @Runningman

 

[Red Baker]

@Peterlag

Logic and reason does not apply when debating you because you make up whatever you need as you go along.

But, if I agreed with you and the Jehovah Witnesses, then I would be the king of logic and reason. I'll pass.

 

[Red Baker]

As much as I hate to agree with you , you are correct

Civic, I'm sure you do hate agreeing with a heretic, yet your understanding of the eternal generation, Sonship doctrine of Jesus Christ, truly allows them a perfect opportunity to teach their heresy of Jesus being a begotten god. You cannot escape that conclusion even if you try to do so, you have trapped yourself. And they know this to be so, even though they will never tell you, until you think you have them back into a corner, then they will use the this to escape from you and rightly so. You have a problem on your hand to deal with, and there's no way to escape for you, you have done it to yourself by embracing a doctrine you cannot defend from the word of God. Again consider carefully:

"If " Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according "to his Divine" nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.

The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation ~ generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time is also antecedent to such generation. You and others truly are giving them a reason to teach their heresy! And you cannot prove them wrong with you eternal Sonship teaching.

 

[Red Baker]

For starters man was created in the image of God, not angels so the Plural US/OUR image CANNOT include the angels. Mistake number 1

Angels were created in God's image before creation, how soon we assumed immediately, the reason being, no angels or man have the power/attribute of immutability but God alone. They left their first estate as soon as God left them to themselves, just as man did. So, my point is still very much valid. I would never say something without first pondering the ramification of what I'm saying. No good lawyer would ever ask a question without knowing the answer to it first, and God's people are wiser in spiritual things than lawyers are in natural things, even though many are every gifted, but so are God' children, since we have the mind of Christ~1st Corinthians 2:16 etc.

Mistake number 2- The rest of your assumptions in your post are just that- assumptions built upon a false premise on the plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26.

Have you ever wondered why the angels are not redeemable after they sinned ?

Here is a hint- they were not created in the image of God like man. So they angels CANNOT be included in Genesis 1:26.

What other image could they have been created in? Only in God's image, which consist in wisdom, knowledge and understanding, and they were created in that image higher than man!

Daniel 9:22​

“And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.”

Noah, Job, and Daniel were men with great spiritual wisdom, understanding and knowledge, but not compared to angels! They created created in God's image a little higher than man. So, your point is null and voided.

As you rightly stated, one error opens the door for others to come in, and you are a living example of this at the moment.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

its impossible for a solitary god to be both relational and love.

Really? Where do you read that of God in the scriptures? You do not, you are just assuming something you know nothing about, even though you should.

The very nature of God is LOVE. "God is love" (1st John 4:8). It is not simply that God "loves," but that He is Love itself. Love is not merely one of His attributes, but His very nature. God is not like us, we need an object before we can love, and even then, evil is mixed with our affection toward loving someone, even the spouse of our bosom.

Now the truth is that on this, as on everything else, our thoughts need to be formed and regulated by what is revealed thereon in Holy Scripture. That there is urgent need for this is apparent not only from the ignorance which so generally prevails, but also from the low state of spirituality which is now so sadly evident everywhere among professing Christians. How little real love there is for God. One chief reason for this is because our hearts are so little occupied with His wondrous love for His people. The better we are acquainted with His love ~ its character, fulness, blessedness—the more will our hearts be drawn out in love to Him.

Even in God's solitariness, he can love and did love.

Jeremiah 31:3
“The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.”

A lot of the scriptures is indeed a mystery, yet we do believe what we can read, and it is clear that God has loved his elect chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. He only love him, because he first loved us before we were ever born, from before the world begun.

 

[civic]

@civic

You started out wrong, so it is impossible to end up correct concerning the Godhead. The Holy Spirit interprets His word for us:

John 1:1​

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

With God is speaking of ONE DIvine Nature in essence which makes up the Godhead.

1st John 1:1 That (with God) which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;​

That.

That is a glorious demonstrative pronoun for our Lord Jesus Christ ~ the Word of life!

A personal pronoun like Who loses proximity, timing context by That versus This.

Example: That was the biggest snow … this was the biggest … which is closer in place or time?

Jesus ascended to heaven years earlier, so the distant demonstrative pronoun is used.

This which was from the beginning would not make sense, for Jesus was not present as the Son.

Civic, this That is everything. All things are by Him, through Him, for Him, to Him...As God of Genesis 1:1

You and I were created and exist for this That; no need to distinguish Jehovah or His Son as far as their Divine nature goes as the God of Genesis 1:1.

Though Jesus in his humanity is subordinate to God as our Mediator (1st Corinthians 15:28) He is also God. Though Jesus is subordinate to God, He has been exalted for worship (Philippians 2:9-11). Though Jesus is subordinate, He is the glorious express image of God in his human body. (Hebrews 1:3). To the degree anyone daily confuse their existence with any other purpose, they lose. Jesus Christ is the Head of our religion, our King, our Priest, our Savior, and coming Judge. He shall, in His times, reveal He is the Blessed and Only Potentate (1st Timothy 6:14-16).

If He did not pre exist He is not the Crestor who made all things . It says God used the Son as the vehicle of creation through whom all things were made. You ignore the distinction scripture makes and instead close your mind to that fact to hold onto your non trinitarian view. John 1, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1 and 1 Corinthians 8:6 place both the Father and Son as Co-Creators.

Once again you stand refuted.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

If He did not pre exist He is not the Crestor who made all things . It says God used the Son as the vehicle of creation through whom all things were made. You ignore the distinction scripture makes and instead close your mind to that fact to hold onto your non trinitarian view. John 1, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1 and 1 Corinthians 8:6 place both the Father and Son as Co-Creators.

He created all things as the I AM THAT I AM.

I want you to tell me how he pre existed as the Son? If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

You said: "It says God used the Son as the vehicle of creation through whom all things were made"

Prove it.

Brother, I DO appreciate your love for the scriptures, and your zeal, both are commendable, nevertheless, you are wrong on this doctrine and time will prove it, maybe not to you, but I trust to younger lambs still seeking the truth.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Since you have no idea who the Christ is.

I know who he was and who he is.

Please put your pride on the table and show some humility

Is why you think he either has to be God or just a man like me.

Again, there are three options.

Your not giving me any reason to believe in a 4th option.

Did God create this son of man to do Gods work of sacrifice.

what kind of loving God does that?

 

[Peterlag]

I know who he was and who he is.

Please put your pride on the table and show some humility

Again, there are three options.

Your not giving me any reason to believe in a 4th option.

Did God create this son of man to do Gods work of sacrifice.

what kind of loving God does that?

There's no pride involved. I just tell it like I see it. If you knew who Jesus was you would not be asking who he could be other than God or just a man.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@Eternally-Grateful

You do not know the Greek no more than anyone else here.

And this makes what I said wrong?

Besides, Jesus in his Deity is from everlasting to everlasting, so there.

so you agree. Before abraham was, i always existed?

do you know why the jews picked up stones to try to stone Jesus when he said these words. and why many of them fell back?

Ps. Did you know in the greek septuagint, When Moses asked God what he should call him. The same 2 greek words Jesus used here were used by God (pre-incarnate Jesus) there "ego eimi"

Also, does this mean that the Greek by nature should have a better understanding of the scriptures than you, or, myself, or anyone else who is not a Greek by nature? How foolish to even think this.

sometimes we have to go to the original text to make up for the flaws of the english language.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus Christ is NOT the second person of the Godhead, he is God in his Deity as the I AM THAT I AM without any qualification!

The Holy Spirit is not teh third person of the Godhead, he is God without any qualification! You folks are rubber stamp believers just repeating what you have heard all of your life. The sooner you grasp a hold of this truth, the better you will be to be able to defend the truth.

Jesus was sent by the father, and the father will send the HS

they are different persons..

We just read the word in interpret what we see.

God did not send himself. and he is not going to send another one of himself after himself returns to heaven

 

[FreeInChrist]

@civic @Eternally-Grateful @FreeInChrist @Peterlag

Please address the following post:

# 52, 64, 78, 79, 122, and 123. So far no one has done so. Thanks.

I'll try to post later, I have been sick the last day or so, trusting I can get better. That's I'm up now, cannot sleep.

Count me out.

I will not be posting mush because I am being taught by @praise_yeshua and @101G and I will just be reading only because
they have decided they alone know the Bible and they are going to teach me.

So , sorry you have been sick. Most everyone I know has some problems these days.

So I just hope and pray I can just read..... perhaps will keep my mouth shut.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The LORD God is God period. In a lesser degree, God was a father to Israel and his people, but in a greater degree He is the Father of Jesus Christ according to Luke one. etc.

God the Father is more a NT teaching/phrase than OT ~ which is clearly seen and understood by most.

you did not break the passage down.

The lord of Israel was sent by the father and his spirit.

please break it down to me so I can see what you are seeing

saiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

1. Who am I
2. WHo is the lord God who sent me
3. Who is the lord Gods spirit?

3 people are mentioned here. who are they?

Only in his Deity as God is he the Everlasting Father of all things.

The Holy Spirit is God without qualifications. In the Godhead they are ONE in essence, etc. We give each one their due worship, respect, fear, and honor as God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@civic

He created all things as the I AM THAT I AM.

I want you to tell me how he pre existed as the Son? If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

You said: "It says God used the Son as the vehicle of creation through whom all things were made"

Prove it.

Brother, I DO appreciate your love for the scriptures, and your zeal, both are commendable, nevertheless, you are wrong on this doctrine and time will prove it, maybe not to you, but I trust to younger lambs still seeking the truth.

I am is pre-incarnate Jesus

It is not the father, and it was not the spirit

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There's no pride involved. I just tell it like I see it. If you knew who Jesus was you would not be asking who he could be other than God or just a man.

It is because I know who he is that I am asking you

Because you do not seem to know who he is

(see how pride gets in and takes us out. When both of us can make the exact same argument against each other like here. it is a fatal argument that dies on its foundation)

 

[civic]

you did not break the passage down.

The lord of Israel was sent by the father and his spirit.

please break it down to me so I can see what you are seeing

saiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

1. Who am I
2. WHo is the lord God who sent me
3. Who is the lord Gods spirit?

3 people are mentioned here. who are they?

His view is God is only 1 person in the OT and before creation just like the unitarian and in the NT switches to modalism.

 

[civic]

I am is pre-incarnate Jesus

It is not the father, and it was not the spirit

Amen

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@civic @Eternally-Grateful @FreeInChrist @Peterlag

Please address the following post:

# 52, 64, 78, 79, 122, and 123. So far no one has done so. Thanks.

I'll try to post later, I have been sick the last day or so, trusting I can get better. That's I'm up now, cannot sleep.

that's an aweful lot of posts.. your saying no one has responded?

I just read them

I do not respond to long drawn out posts.. If you have actual questions please ask..

 

[Red Baker]

So I just hope and pray I can just read..... perhaps

will keep my mouth shut.

Well, I DO believe in miracles.......