Non protestant baptists

360watt

Well-known member
Church history written down, has mainly been written, until recently, by the likes of large groups like Catholism and Reformers.

Writers of church history thru them have been seen as the primary sources. That what their view is..is the right one.

They call a different group heretics and it's like... 'well, they must be heretics then'

But, what if..in the mix of those groups they were calling heretics, there were a large proportion of independent bible believing Christians who taught baptist distinctive doctrines?

*salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone
*believers baptism only..no pedobaptism
*independence and autonomy of the local church
*Lord's supper and tithing practiced

Millions of Christians were grievously cut off with the knife by the like of Roman Catholicism and later also even by Reformers to a lesser degree.

They would call rejection of pedobaptism 'heresy'..yet the Bible example is of baptism by immersion only for believers only.

They would call rejection of a large mother church org 'heresy' .. yet the Bible example is of independent congregations.....churches assisting one another.

Churches that have held to biblical distinctives thru history..separate from Catholicism..around before them..and who helped the Reformation at some points..but weren't reforming their own churches.. get called Non Protestant Baptists.

See the Battle for Baptist History by I K Cross and My Church by J.M. Moody.

Church history was mostly written by the persecutors of real Christian churches.
 
Are you familiar with the logical fallacy known as the appeal to purity (otherwise known as the "no true Scotsman" fallacy)?

Do you mean J. B. Moody instead of J. M. Moody?
You probably mean the books I am referencing are about church history.. and therefore i'm using false logic there.. but what I mean is... the writers of church history from the middle ages and before.. not 1950s until now. The writings of large mother church orgs around at the time of the persecutions.. not recent writings.
 
I'm pretty sure it's J.M.Moody.. the book is from the 1950s.
Amazon
Barnes and Noble
Ebay
Baptist Standard Bearer
Books A Million

Bio at Baptist History Homepage

Perhaps you could provide a link to where the book recommended in the op may be purchased if it is not the one above.
I'm not aware of that logical fallacy.. do explain why you are saying it is that.
I provided a link from a website specializing in marketing tools for critical thinking explaining the fallacy. Here's the Wiki description.

The argument, "No true Christian does X," implies anyone who does not do X is not a Christian, or they are not authentically Christian. They are an untrue Christian. What qualifies as a Christian is modified using the qualifier "true" and stipulating what it is that make "true" true. In this case, the Baptist view of baptism is the indicative qualifier that decides whether or not a person is a Christian or not.

Similar examples would be the Presbyterian (or Reformed Baptist) who asserts monergist soteriology is the measure of what qualifies as a (true) Christian and anyone holding a synergistic view is not, therefore, a Christian. During the 19th century there was a huge explosion of sectarianism, one that made the Protestant Reformation look like a trial run. Sects like the Church of Christ, the Disciples of Christ, the Brethren sects, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Latter Day Saints, the Christadelphians arose during this period. At the foundation of these sects' theology was the fundamental believe the Church was corrupt and in need of restoration (hence the name of the movement). The need for restoration was supposedly measured by the New Testament precedents (or Old Testament Judaism, since Christianity was originally Jewish). The problem was that each sect had different views of what qualified as "pure." These sects were all also apocalyptic, using the doctrine of imminence (or imminent return) to empower the need for people to return to a pure or "restored" church/Church lest they either suffer the wrath of God's return or miss the rapture and be left behind while all the "true" Christians were removed from the planet. Some of these sects fell within the pale of orthodoxy, but most did not. Most of them were cults. All of them made appeals to purity.




I was once interviewing a series of leaders (pastors and elders) of various congregation in an effort to find a congregation suitable for my children when they reached adolescence because the congregation my family had been attending was very small and had no youth group. In the process of doing my due diligence I visited each congregation on Sunday and experienced the service, the teaching, and the fellowship. I was not looking for a social club. I was looking for a congregation that could support my children's move from childhood to adulthood in Christ, from boyhood and girlhood to manhood and womanhood. At my visits I picked up copies of each congregation's statement of faith and bylaws because I wanted sound doctrine and structures for both internal and external accountability. I've seen too many congregations divide or self-destruct because they lacked oversight by some outside governing body. This is especially problematic in non-denominational, independent, and/or family-run congregation. I had some theological differences with one of the congregations in which I was interested but the congregation had a very good youth group, was involved in both congregational, community, and international ministries and had an otherwise good reputation in the area. Having filled out one of the visitor card, the congregation sent someone to my house to discuss my joining the congregation and we talked, and I decided to meet with one of the pastors or elders to discuss my particular needs. After I made the appointment, I went online and listened to some of the sermons or teachings of that particular pastor (that congregation was so large it had several pastors on staff). During our conversation I brought up something I read in the congregation's by-laws. The by-laws of that particular congregation required all of its members to subscribe to Dispensational Premillennialism (DP). No other eschatological point of view was permitted despite the facts 1) eschatology in general is not a core doctrine of the faith and 2) eschatology is one of the most vigorously debated doctrines, and 3) DPism has a lot of problems. I simply commented that I was unaware that Dispensational Premillennialism was a prerequisite to be a Christian, to be in Christ, to be a member of the Church* (the ecclesia), or that any specific eschatological point of view was required to be a member of Christ's body.

The pastor acknowledged Dispensationalism is not what qualifies a person to be a member of Christ's body.

I suggested he take the matter up with the elders and amend their bylaws accordingly.

While not explicitly stated, at the foundation of their by-laws was this appeal to purity. In order to be a Christian, you must subscribe to Dispensational Premillennialism. In order to be a true Christian and join that congregation as a member a person must subscribe to DPism. Otherwise, the implication is you're not a true Christian and, therefore, cannot be a member of that congregation.

Sadly, there are many examples of this throughout Church history. The appeal to purity is much different than an appeal to sound, historical orthodoxy.

If I understand the op correctly, the main point is that the positions of the Baptist distinctives pertaining to baptism existed long before the Baptist denomination began. It's a good and valid point. It should, however, be left at that. Claiming those distinctives are what definitively define a "true" Christian is not exegetically correct and, although I did not mention in it earlier, an appeal to views held previously is another fallacy. Pelagianism, for example, has been around since the fourth century but it has been deemed a heresy since the debate he had with Augustine. Many people make arguments appealing to the ECFs but the facts of the ECFs are that their views were quite diverse so just about any position can be justified using the ECFs. It took almost 400 years of devoted prayer and rigorous debate for the core doctrines of the Church to be formalized. Even given these facts there are still people claiming to be Christians who also claim that points of view held prior to the setting of core doctrine are valid and should be considered in modernity. Simply put, just because Polycarp, Clement, or Augustine said X, Y, or Z, does not make X, Y, or Z true and correct. I happen to be Reformed in my positions, but I will wholeheartedly stand against Calvin's position pedobaptism is salvific. I understand Luther, Calvin and all the other early Reformers were coming out of the RCC and, therefore, still held onto various positions asserted by Roman Catholic doctrine. Luther, Calvin, and Arminius were all soteriological Augustinian (RCC). It was only with the rise of subsequent generations that the Reformed doctrines got an in-house debate (and lots of corporate prayer) and were eventually formalized as doctrines. Those doctrines took to different avenues and since then the Protestant doctrines have become further fractured and diverse, especially in the area of soteriology. It has become harder and harder to prove what constitutes as a "true" Christian because 999 gazillion different points of view define the identity in 999 gazillion different ways.

Scripture defines a Christian in only one way: those who believe in the name of God's one and only resurrected and ascendant son and trust in him for their salvation from sin and wrath....... and even within that definition there are a lot of poseurs (see Matthew 7:21-23).

My apologies for the length. Hope this is helpful.









* Scripturally speaking, there is only one Church (capital "C"). There are many congregations, but only one body of Christ, the ecclesia, or those called out of the world into God's service through His Son, Jesus Christ. Unblessedly, over the centuries the word "church" (small "c") has many definitions. The word can refer to the body of Christ, a religious institution, a local congregation, or a building of brick or aluminum siding in which people gather to worship. I use the word "Church" to refer to the body of Christ. I rarely use the lowercase "c," church but, instead, use the word "congregation," when referring to any local body of believers.
.
 
Amazon
Barnes and Noble
Ebay
Baptist Standard Bearer
Books A Million

Bio at Baptist History Homepage

Perhaps you could provide a link to where the book recommended in the op may be purchased if it is not the one above.

I provided a link from a website specializing in marketing tools for critical thinking explaining the fallacy. Here's the Wiki description.

The argument, "No true Christian does X," implies anyone who does not do X is not a Christian, or they are not authentically Christian. They are an untrue Christian. What qualifies as a Christian is modified using the qualifier "true" and stipulating what it is that make "true" true. In this case, the Baptist view of baptism is the indicative qualifier that decides whether or not a person is a Christian or not.

Similar examples would be the Presbyterian (or Reformed Baptist) who asserts monergist soteriology is the measure of what qualifies as a (true) Christian and anyone holding a synergistic view is not, therefore, a Christian. During the 19th century there was a huge explosion of sectarianism, one that made the Protestant Reformation look like a trial run. Sects like the Church of Christ, the Disciples of Christ, the Brethren sects, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Latter Day Saints, the Christadelphians arose during this period. At the foundation of these sects' theology was the fundamental believe the Church was corrupt and in need of restoration (hence the name of the movement). The need for restoration was supposedly measured by the New Testament precedents (or Old Testament Judaism, since Christianity was originally Jewish). The problem was that each sect had different views of what qualified as "pure." These sects were all also apocalyptic, using the doctrine of imminence (or imminent return) to empower the need for people to return to a pure or "restored" church/Church lest they either suffer the wrath of God's return or miss the rapture and be left behind while all the "true" Christians were removed from the planet. Some of these sects fell within the pale of orthodoxy, but most did not. Most of them were cults. All of them made appeals to purity.




I was once interviewing a series of leaders (pastors and elders) of various congregation in an effort to find a congregation suitable for my children when they reached adolescence because the congregation my family had been attending was very small and had no youth group. In the process of doing my due diligence I visited each congregation on Sunday and experienced the service, the teaching, and the fellowship. I was not looking for a social club. I was looking for a congregation that could support my children's move from childhood to adulthood in Christ, from boyhood and girlhood to manhood and womanhood. At my visits I picked up copies of each congregation's statement of faith and bylaws because I wanted sound doctrine and structures for both internal and external accountability. I've seen too many congregations divide or self-destruct because they lacked oversight by some outside governing body. This is especially problematic in non-denominational, independent, and/or family-run congregation. I had some theological differences with one of the congregations in which I was interested but the congregation had a very good youth group, was involved in both congregational, community, and international ministries and had an otherwise good reputation in the area. Having filled out one of the visitor card, the congregation sent someone to my house to discuss my joining the congregation and we talked, and I decided to meet with one of the pastors or elders to discuss my particular needs. After I made the appointment, I went online and listened to some of the sermons or teachings of that particular pastor (that congregation was so large it had several pastors on staff). During our conversation I brought up something I read in the congregation's by-laws. The by-laws of that particular congregation required all of its members to subscribe to Dispensational Premillennialism (DP). No other eschatological point of view was permitted despite the facts 1) eschatology in general is not a core doctrine of the faith and 2) eschatology is one of the most vigorously debated doctrines, and 3) DPism has a lot of problems. I simply commented that I was unaware that Dispensational Premillennialism was a prerequisite to be a Christian, to be in Christ, to be a member of the Church* (the ecclesia), or that any specific eschatological point of view was required to be a member of Christ's body.

The pastor acknowledged Dispensationalism is not what qualifies a person to be a member of Christ's body.

I suggested he take the matter up with the elders and amend their bylaws accordingly.

While not explicitly stated, at the foundation of their by-laws was this appeal to purity. In order to be a Christian, you must subscribe to Dispensational Premillennialism. In order to be a true Christian and join that congregation as a member a person must subscribe to DPism. Otherwise, the implication is you're not a true Christian and, therefore, cannot be a member of that congregation.

Sadly, there are many examples of this throughout Church history. The appeal to purity is much different than an appeal to sound, historical orthodoxy.

If I understand the op correctly, the main point is that the positions of the Baptist distinctives pertaining to baptism existed long before the Baptist denomination began. It's a good and valid point. It should, however, be left at that. Claiming those distinctives are what definitively define a "true" Christian is not exegetically correct and, although I did not mention in it earlier, an appeal to views held previously is another fallacy. Pelagianism, for example, has been around since the fourth century but it has been deemed a heresy since the debate he had with Augustine. Many people make arguments appealing to the ECFs but the facts of the ECFs are that their views were quite diverse so just about any position can be justified using the ECFs. It took almost 400 years of devoted prayer and rigorous debate for the core doctrines of the Church to be formalized. Even given these facts there are still people claiming to be Christians who also claim that points of view held prior to the setting of core doctrine are valid and should be considered in modernity. Simply put, just because Polycarp, Clement, or Augustine said X, Y, or Z, does not make X, Y, or Z true and correct. I happen to be Reformed in my positions, but I will wholeheartedly stand against Calvin's position pedobaptism is salvific. I understand Luther, Calvin and all the other early Reformers were coming out of the RCC and, therefore, still held onto various positions asserted by Roman Catholic doctrine. Luther, Calvin, and Arminius were all soteriological Augustinian (RCC). It was only with the rise of subsequent generations that the Reformed doctrines got an in-house debate (and lots of corporate prayer) and were eventually formalized as doctrines. Those doctrines took to different avenues and since then the Protestant doctrines have become further fractured and diverse, especially in the area of soteriology. It has become harder and harder to prove what constitutes as a "true" Christian because 999 gazillion different points of view define the identity in 999 gazillion different ways.

Scripture defines a Christian in only one way: those who believe in the name of God's one and only resurrected and ascendant son and trust in him for their salvation from sin and wrath....... and even within that definition there are a lot of poseurs (see Matthew 7:21-23).

My apologies for the length. Hope this is helpful.









* Scripturally speaking, there is only one Church (capital "C"). There are many congregations, but only one body of Christ, the ecclesia, or those called out of the world into God's service through His Son, Jesus Christ. Unblessedly, over the centuries the word "church" (small "c") has many definitions. The word can refer to the body of Christ, a religious institution, a local congregation, or a building of brick or aluminum siding in which people gather to worship. I use the word "Church" to refer to the body of Christ. I rarely use the lowercase "c," church but, instead, use the word "congregation," when referring to any local body of believers.
.

Thanks for taking the time to post. You've really thought about this alot.

To clarify..to be a Christian to begin with.. it isn't following doctrines..but knowing you are a sinner, and believing in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins, eternal life.

That He is God, that He died and rose again, that by believing in Him, you have eternal life.

So.. when I say 'true church' .. I am not talking about salvation so much, but doctrine.

What you call every believer as the body of Christ..I call a local congregation..the body of Christ.

Anyway.. ya the main point is Baptist distinctive doctrines dont start with the Reformation.. but long before.

The American Baptist Association bookstore should have My Church by J M Moody..and The Battle for Baptist History by I K Cross. Bogard Press bookstore.

Actually it is J.B.Moody..not J.M.Moody
 
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Thanks for taking the time to post. You've really thought about this alot.

To clarify..to be a Christian to begin with.. it isn't following doctrines..but knowing you are a sinner, and believing in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins, eternal life. That He is God, that He died and rose again, that by believing in Him, you have eternal life.
Yep.
So.. when I say 'true church' .. I am not talking about salvation so much, but doctrine.
That is bad doctrine ;). lol.

As far as scripture goes there is only one Church, and that Church is the ecclesia, those called out of the world into God's service through His resurrected and ascendant Son, Jesus the Christ. Scripture never speaks of an "invisible" church, or an "institutional" church. It never speaks of a "true" church. It dies speak of the church of satan, those called out into satan's service, but that church is definitely NOT the Church.
What you call every believer as the body of Christ..I call a local congregation..the body of Christ.
Good. Me, too.
Actually it is J.B.Moody..not J.M.Moody
Yep.
Anyway.. ya the main point is Baptist distinctive doctrines dont start with the Reformation.. but long before.
I agree. Sorta. The "distinctives" existed prior to the institution of the sect known as the Baptist Church and the many denominations that constitute it (like the SBC, ABA, ABCUSA, etc.) so those distinctives are not Baptist. They are just Christian. What the Baptist Church has done is to take those positions and emphasize them, using them to qualify what constitutes being a Baptist. The unintended result (at least I hope it was unintended) is that the Baptists separated themselves from the rest of Christendom and, yes, that happened along doctrinal lines. This is very much like what Paul described in his first letter to the Corinthian congregations when he addressed the problem of some believers following Apollos and some following Cephas. These are the first seeds of Church sectarianism recorded in scripture.

  • It's not something God wanted (according to Peter).
  • It does have a New Testament basis.
  • It is evidence of fleshly living among Christians.
  • More of the same is to be expected.

We, therefore, needn't lose our minds over it. Despite its immense diversity, the Church has much more in agreement than it does in disparity and, most importantly, there is a huge difference between division and divisiveness.

Here's a comparative example from the Reformed end of things: The doctrine we now call "Total Depravity," is not a product of the Reformation. Lots of Christians make a mistake thinking that is the case. LOTS of them. The truth, however, is that the doctrine goes back at least as far back as Augustine, more than a thousand years before the Reformation and both Calvin and Arminius were subscribers to that position. Arminius says so in his Disputation 11 (see Section VII). In other words, Arminius was a one-pointer :D. Lot's of self-identifying Arminians, therefore, are not actually Arminian. They're Pelagian (who denied the effects of sin compromised human faculties to the point of precluding the sinner initiating his/her own return to God).

Here's another example. This one is from Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is exclusively affiliated with Premillennialism. There are no Dispensational Amils, Postmils, or Idealists. There are reasons for this but they're not germane to the current point. The salient point is that Dispensationalists point the use of the word, "dispensation," in the ECFs and then say, "See, the ECFs used the word so there is a historical basis for our doing the same and inventing an entirely new theology centering on that word. The problem is Dispensational Premillennialists change the definition of dispensation and then use that definition..... to separate themselves from the rest of Christendom :(.

The point of these two points is that there is are good ways to leverage historical Christian thought, doctrine, and practice, and there are bad ways to do it.
 
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When it comes to water baptism, care should always be taken not to make water baptism causal to salvation. It is also important to hold a viewpoint(s) that explains, or at least tolerates, the exceptions to the rule (because there are a few of them in the Bible when it comes to water baptism). Asserting any notion of "true" church that does not do these is a form of legalism and legalism kills. I'll further address these two points below.

Causality: Baptism does not cause salvation. If it did then salvation would be by works, not faith, or salvation would be by faith+plus+works, and neither is scriptural. Neither is Christianity. Neither, therefore, is what a "true" church would or should teach. An example of commonly misunderstood causality is something I think I mentioned above in an earlier post (although I may be confused with another thread). Simply put faith is not causal. Ephesians 2 states we are saved by grace, through faith, for works (having been created in Christ). Faith is not the cause of salvation. Grace is the cause. Faith, however, is the cause of justification (or at least one of the three or four causes scripture states). Unblessedly, there are a lot of Christians who read their Bible and don't notice the distinction. They walk away thinking what they've read says faith causes salvation. Verses like, Luke 7:50 or Acts 16:31 are mistakenly read to be causal, not correlative. The dynamics are similar with water baptism. Only people already living in a God-initiated, established covenant relationship get baptized. Throughout the New Testament it is people already professing a faith in God (or Jesus) who get baptized. If we look at the whole of scripture and the Jewish versions of baptism (or ritual washing) it was only those converting to Judaism that got baptized. It was an end-of-the-process ritual, not the one that causally started salvation.​

Exceptions to the rule: The most obvious example is the thief on the cross. I'm sure you've had many a discussion and debate with naysayers to the Baptist position who have employed that example. Another example would be the believers of Acts 19 who had only the Baptism of John (water baptism). They are called "disciples," indicating their status or identity as Christians and treated as if they are saved. Then there are the numerous examples of ritual washing that are not immersive (I do not know whether you are an immersive, but I assume so given the Baptist distinctives).​



The point is a sound view of salvation has to reconcile with the whole of scripture and scripture never teaches salvation-by-the-causality-of-water-immersion. The Baptist Church does not teach the causality of water baptism, but like the self-identifying Arminian who denies total depravity, there are a lot of Baptists who don't correctly understand their own doctrine. Trying to justify sound doctrine by history is dubious but trying to prove unsound doctrine with appeals to history is worse. It is a good and valid point to say, "The distinctives of the Baptist Church were held prior to the institutionalization of the Baptist Church," but it is not valid to say that alone proves their veracity (or that everyone should be Baptist).


And it is not that I have put a lot of thought into this. It is that I have been a Christian for many decades, reading my Bible and studying theology in much of its diversity. I, like you, want my practice of the faith to be as consistent with well-rendered scripture as is possible on this side of the grave. It is clear from scripture that God has, by His will, created and allowed some diversity within orthodoxy, but not as much as we'd like to think.
 
When it comes to water baptism, care should always be taken not to make water baptism causal to salvation. It is also important to hold a viewpoint(s) that explains, or at least tolerates, the exceptions to the rule (because there are a few of them in the Bible when it comes to water baptism). Asserting any notion of "true" church that does not do these is a form of legalism and legalism kills. I'll further address these two points below.

Causality: Baptism does not cause salvation. If it did then salvation would be by works, not faith, or salvation would be by faith+plus+works, and neither is scriptural. Neither is Christianity. Neither, therefore, is what a "true" church would or should teach. An example of commonly misunderstood causality is something I think I mentioned above in an earlier post (although I may be confused with another thread). Simply put faith is not causal. Ephesians 2 states we are saved by grace, through faith, for works (having been created in Christ). Faith is not the cause of salvation. Grace is the cause. Faith, however, is the cause of justification (or at least one of the three or four causes scripture states). Unblessedly, there are a lot of Christians who read their Bible and don't notice the distinction. They walk away thinking what they've read says faith causes salvation. Verses like, Luke 7:50 or Acts 16:31 are mistakenly read to be causal, not correlative. The dynamics are similar with water baptism. Only people already living in a God-initiated, established covenant relationship get baptized. Throughout the New Testament it is people already professing a faith in God (or Jesus) who get baptized. If we look at the whole of scripture and the Jewish versions of baptism (or ritual washing) it was only those converting to Judaism that got baptized. It was an end-of-the-process ritual, not the one that causally started salvation.​

Exceptions to the rule: The most obvious example is the thief on the cross. I'm sure you've had many a discussion and debate with naysayers to the Baptist position who have employed that example. Another example would be the believers of Acts 19 who had only the Baptism of John (water baptism). They are called "disciples," indicating their status or identity as Christians and treated as if they are saved. Then there are the numerous examples of ritual washing that are not immersive (I do not know whether you are an immersive, but I assume so given the Baptist distinctives).​



The point is a sound view of salvation has to reconcile with the whole of scripture and scripture never teaches salvation-by-the-causality-of-water-immersion. The Baptist Church does not teach the causality of water baptism, but like the self-identifying Arminian who denies total depravity, there are a lot of Baptists who don't correctly understand their own doctrine. Trying to justify sound doctrine by history is dubious but trying to prove unsound doctrine with appeals to history is worse. It is a good and valid point to say, "The distinctives of the Baptist Church were held prior to the institutionalization of the Baptist Church," but it is not valid to say that alone proves their veracity (or that everyone should be Baptist).


And it is not that I have put a lot of thought into this. It is that I have been a Christian for many decades, reading my Bible and studying theology in much of its diversity. I, like you, want my practice of the faith to be as consistent with well-rendered scripture as is possible on this side of the grave. It is clear from scripture that God has, by His will, created and allowed some diversity within orthodoxy, but not as much as we'd like to think.

Yeah.. I don't think it is only churches with Baptist in the name that are the true ones. That would be ridiculous.

The New Testament churches pattern of faith (that God wants) is the blue print.. and so the true churches are those who hold to that.

So a denominational name does not matter as long as a church tries to keep to this pattern.

The question is what other kind of churches, aside from baptists have held those distinctives that match that pattern.

There are many that adopted it later. But if that pattern goes before the Reformers and Roman Catholicism.. then not every church can be called God's church.

One thing that I have come into that I am uncomfortable with is Baptist churches that add KJB only to a qualifier as a real church. I'm part of an IFB KJB only church.. and struggle with how the church views the KJB sometimes.

So .. some add qualifiers to what a real church is that make it a bit ridiculous.
 
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