No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Gaius]

Men are not in the driver's seat ...

Then we should not be held accountable for sin.

God did not create evil, but he did create human beings with the capacity to choose evil. And while the capacity to choose evil is not evil itself, it provides the possibility for evil to exist. And the absence of good defines evil.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. (Romans 5:12)

 

[TedT]

That explains a lot. smh
I pray that some day you will learn the truth.

How condescending...or is it patronizing? I'm not sure of the difference since I am not used to facing either in polite company.

I do have a standing offer to shut up if anyone can show me a verse in the Bible that even hints, not proves, that our pce is impossible...no one has even tried this in the 15 years of my contributing my Christian convictions on theses forums.

PCE is explained away by doublethinking, accepting opposites to both be true at the same time:
GOD is holy and can do no evil: GOD creates sinners by having them created in Adam.
or
Babies are innocent, not sinners: yet they suffer the consequences for sinfulness, they suffer the wages of sin, death and suffering, just like every other sinner in the world.
or
We have a free will at the same time we are enslaved by the power of sin.
or
GOD's love is perfectly patient and kind yet HE shuts the gates of hell on those who are able to repent without waiting for them. And the corollary to this one is: GOD wants all to be saved but HE supposedly created those HE knew would never repent then sent them to hell for it.

These contradictions are not mysteries, they are errors, sigh.

crickets and ducks, crickets and ducks

 

[brightfame52]

You are blinded by Satan's lies.
Each and every one of those states that Jesus died for all, everyone, the world, all mankind. The fact that you don't want to hear it doesn't change the truth of God's Word. Jesus died once for all (there is no one that is not part of "all"). Jesus died not only for the saints but for the whole world (again, there is no one that is not part of "the whole world"). As I said earlier, you are not arguing against me, but against God. How far is arguing against God going to get you?

Do you know what the word savingly means now?

 

[brightfame52]

You have it backward. When an individual believes in Him, then He saves them. And there are too many passages of Scripture that say this for you to even begin to have a case.

You have it backwards, to believe on Christ is a benefit of Christ saving work

 

[Doug Brents]

How condescending...or is it patronizing? I'm not sure of the difference since I am not used to facing either in polite company.

I do have a standing offer to shut up if anyone can show me a verse in the Bible that even hints, not proves, that our pce is impossible...no one has even tried this in15 years of my contributing my Christian convictions on theses forums.

It took me all of 2 minutes to come up with passages that disprove PCE.
Any reasonable person who knows how to study the Bible will always tell us to keep in mind the context. In the context of Job 38, we read that God is asking him several rhetorical questions which the answers were simply and obviously, "No!" In other words, Job wasn’t in existence when these things took place. Read the following passages from this chapter in their context, Job 38:4-8, Job 38:11-13.

 

[Doug Brents]

You have it backwards, to believe on Christ is a benefit of Christ saving work

Gen 15:6
Eph 2:8-9
1 Pet 1:9

These are just a few of the many passages that tell us that faith comes first, then salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Gen 15:6
Eph 2:8-9
1 Pet 1:9

These are just a few of the many passages that tell us that faith comes first, then salvation.

to believe on Christ is a benefit of Christ saving work.

 

[Doug Brents]

to believe on Christ is a benefit of Christ saving work.

Show me the verse that says so.

 

[brightfame52]

Show me the verse that says so.

Jn 12:32 indicates that those that he was lifted up for , he shall draw unto himself , that's faith as a result of Him being lifted up for them.

 

[brightfame52]

Show me the verse that says so.

Hey do you know what the word savingly means now?

 

[Doug Brents]

Jn 12:32 indicates that those that he was lifted up for , he shall draw unto himself , that's faith as a result of Him being lifted up for them.

You are reading your preconception into that verse too. John 12:32 says clearly (which is a lot more certain than "indicating") that He will draw ALL MEN to Himself if He is lifted up.

 

[brightfame52]

You are reading your preconception into that verse too. John 12:32 says clearly (which is a lot more certain than "indicating") that He will draw ALL MEN to Himself if He is lifted up.

Oh no, coming unto Him is Faith. The word draw indicated they were won over to Christ:

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

To win over means to persuade and to persuade is the essence of faith

 

[Doug Brents]

Oh no, coming unto Him is Faith. The word draw indicated they were won over to Christ:

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

To win over means to persuade and to persuade is the essence of faith

Nope, not everyone is saved, yet ALL MEN are drawn to Him. "Draw" cannot be indicating that they are already won over to belief in Christ, because that would mean that all men will be saved. NEXT...

 

[Gaius]

Jn 12:32 indicates that those that he was lifted up for , he shall draw unto himself , that's faith as a result of Him being lifted up for them.

The verse tell us that because of the cross ALL MEN can come to Jesus by their own freewill.

32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN to myself.”
John 12:32.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope, not everyone is saved, yet ALL MEN are drawn to Him.

It only applies to the saved. If one never become saved, a believer then they were not drawn by him simple as that

 

[Doug Brents]

It only applies to the saved. If one never become saved, a believer then they were not drawn by him simple as that

Again, you are arguing with God, not me. God is the one who said that He will draw ALL men to Himself through Jesus being lifted up. If you choose to limit His blessing, then that is between you and Him. But Satan has not blinded my eyes to the truth, so I can see clearly that God has offered salvation to ALL mankind, not just your supposed "elect".

 

[TomL]

check your scripture verb tenses.

Already have

Show a verse where an unbeliever is stated to be made alive.

Those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

 

[TomL]

That's what saving them results in. He did not die for those who never come to believe on him.

Nope, those who do not believe are not made alive.

Those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

 

[atpollard]

Show a verse where an unbeliever is stated to be made alive.

Why am I looking for a "married bachelor"?

• When a "bachelor" is married, he becomes a "husband" and stops being a "bachelor".
• When an "unbeliever" is DRAWN and LEARNS (John 6:44-45) by/of the Father, he is "made alive" (Ephesians 2:4-5) and stops being dead.
• So, seeking an "alive" unbeliever is like seeking a "married" bachelor ... you are asking for nonsense!
  • (God is not so foolish as to claim the nonsense that you ask me to provide a verse for.)

 

[TomL]

Why am I looking for a "married bachelor"?

• When a "bachelor" is married, he becomes a "husband" and stops being a "bachelor".
• When an "unbeliever" is DRAWN and LEARNS (John 6:44-45) by/of the Father, he is "made alive" (Ephesians 2:4-5) and stops being dead.
• So, seeking an "alive" unbeliever is like seeking a "married" bachelor ... you are asking for nonsense!
  • (God is not so foolish as to claim the nonsense that you ask me to provide a verse for.)

Tsk Tsk

Don't you know Calvinism holds God regenerates that is makes alive dead men so they can believe.

And that is contrary to scripture.

Those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe