No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Nope, read.

Job 38:7 (NIV) — 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

Surely you know mankind was not existing during the start of creation.
Of course mankind wasn't there - the physical universe was just being created !!! - but people were, the people that are called ALL the sons GOD... Mankind did not exist until sinful spirits were flung into the earth! Adam was the first sinful spirit to become a man, sown here by the breath of GOD.

I follow the text as written as you have scolded others to do but you are claiming the text says something not in the text against your own convictions, sigh.
 
Of course mankind wasn't there - the physical universe was just being created !!! - but people were, the people that are called ALL the sons GOD... Mankind did not exist until sinful spirits were flung into the earth! Adam was the first sinful spirit to become a man, sown here by the breath of GOD.

I follow the text as written as you have scolded others to do but you are claiming the text says something not in the text against your own convictions, sigh.
What?

People?

Non human people?

Job 38:7 (NIV) — 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
 
Did you know for example that ANGELS is not in the Hebrew manuscript??? Angels is used by the the translators to fit their preconceptions about our creation to try to forestall anyone noticing what I see and going down the path they think is wrong, ie, this is an example of pure eisogetics.

Hey, be true to your convictions: if all means all then sons means sons also and all the sons means exactly that: every son of HIS whether elect, reprobate or innocent sang HIS praises when they saw HIS divinity and eternal power by witnessing the creation of the world.

You claim if is says all it must mean all - well it says all the sons of GOD and many here on earth are sons of GOD.
Yes I do i know.

The question is what were these sons?

There is no evidence they were all the future sons of God existing before the creation of the world.

Verse 7. When the morning stars sang together] This must refer to some intelligent beings who existed before the creation of the visible heavens and earth: and it is supposed that this and the following clause refer to the same beings; that by the sons of God, and the morning stars, the angelic host is meant; as they are supposed to be first, though perhaps not chief, in the order of creation.
For the latter clause the Chaldee has, “All the troops of angels.” Perhaps their creation may be included in the term heavens, Gen. 1:1: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” These witnessed the progress of the creation; and, when God had finished his work, celebrated his wisdom and power in the highest strains


Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 3, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 168.

7. When the morning-stars. There can be little doubt that angelic beings are intended here, though some have thought that the stars literally are referred to, and that they seemed to unite in a chorus of praise when another world was added to their number. The Vulgate renders it, astra matutina, morning-stars; the LXX. Ὅτε ἐγενήθηναι ἄστρα—when the stars were made; the Chaldee, “the stars of the zephyr,” or morning—כוכבי צפר. The comparison of a prince, a monarch, or an angel, with a star, is not uncommon; comp. Notes on Isa. 14:12. The expression “the morning-stars” is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase “sons of God” in the other member of the verse.
Sang together. United in a grand chorus or concert of praise. It was usual to celebrate the laying of a corner-stone, or the completion of an edifice, by rejoicing; see Zech. 4:7; Ezra 3:10.
And all the sons of God. Angels—called the sons of God from their resemblance to him, or their being created by him.


Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Job (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1847), 194.

morning stars—especially beautiful. The creation morn is appropriately associated with these, it being the commencement of this world’s day. The stars are figuratively said to sing God’s praises, as in Ps 19:1; 148:3. They are symbols of the angels, bearing the same relation to our earth, as angels do to us. Therefore they answer to “sons of God,” or angels, in the parallel. See on Job 25:5.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 1; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 341.

Job was absent when the morning stars (possibly Venus and Mercury; “morning stars” were mentioned by Job in 3:9) sang and the angels (lit., “the sons of God”; cf. 1:6; 2:1) shouted with joy over God’s Creation of the earth. The stars’ singing is a poetic personification, not a reference to the noise made by stars as detected by radio astronomy. In Psalm 148:2–3 angels and stars are together commanded to praise the Lord.

Roy B. Zuck, “Job,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck; vol. 1; Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 1767.
 
I'm interpreting scripture with scripture. The all also is all the Father gives Him Jn 6 37 which is not all mankind without exception.
You are right in this case. The ones that the Father gave Him were Old Testament saints who were alive during Jesus' ministry. A good cross reference for this is John 17:6:

I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave ME out of the world; they were Yours (i.e. obedient saints under the Old Covenant) and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." People like Joseph and Mary, Zacharias, Elizabeth, Simeon, Anna, the wise men, the shepherds who saw Jesus, several of the twelve apostles, etc.

But the ones that the Father and Jesus drew were ALL men, because He is not willing that any should perish.
 
Of course mankind wasn't there - the physical universe was just being created !!! - but people were, the people that are called ALL the sons GOD... Mankind did not exist until sinful spirits were flung into the earth! Adam was the first sinful spirit to become a man, sown here by the breath of GOD.

I follow the text as written as you have scolded others to do but you are claiming the text says something not in the text against your own convictions, sigh.
Now you're veering away from what the Bible says and talking nonsense. Adam was a sinful spirit who became a man??? That can't be true because he was not sinful until he ate of the forbidden fruit. Also there's no scripture that says "sinful spirits were flung into the earth", who you imply became men. Now you're getting into science fiction, or in this case - false doctrine.
 
Non human people?

Job 38:7 (NIV) — 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

ANGELS ARE PEOPLE, PERSONS because Angels have free will:

1. Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven. When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

2. Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. implying the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil, Matt 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD...angel being a job description, NOT a race or type of being.

3. Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

4. Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

5. Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image. When did they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven.

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some angels and the fall of others, the Satanic demons, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some staying holy and Satan and his crew choosing that which made them forever evil in HIS sight.

Pre-Conception existence theology contends that EVERY PERSON was created in the image of GOD (that is, able to be HIS Bride). None were created with GOD knowing they would end in hell but as true innocents we only had the potential for perfection, ie, we had to choose by our free will to accept GOD and HIS life for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to become perfect in righteousness. The fall of the elect into sin delayed the fulfillment of that potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace. The redemption of His sheep (elect) gone astray into sin, His sinful good (elect) seed, is a restoration to that potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment of HIS purpose for our creation in us.

Peace, Ted
 
ANGELS ARE PEOPLE, PERSONS because Angels have free will:

1. Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven. When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

2. Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. implying the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil, Matt 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD...angel being a job description, NOT a race or type of being.

3. Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

4. Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

5. Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image. When did they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven.

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some angels and the fall of others, the Satanic demons, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some staying holy and Satan and his crew choosing that which made them forever evil in HIS sight.

Pre-Conception existence theology contends that EVERY PERSON was created in the image of GOD (that is, able to be HIS Bride). None were created with GOD knowing they would end in hell but as true innocents we only had the potential for perfection, ie, we had to choose by our free will to accept GOD and HIS life for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to become perfect in righteousness. The fall of the elect into sin delayed the fulfillment of that potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace. The redemption of His sheep (elect) gone astray into sin, His sinful good (elect) seed, is a restoration to that potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment of HIS purpose for our creation in us.

Peace, Ted
And the bottom line here is there is absolutely no evidence limiting the word "all" that we see in the following verse

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
 
Now you're veering away from what the Bible says and talking nonsense. Adam was a sinful spirit who became a man??? That can't be true because he was not sinful until he ate of the forbidden fruit.
Please consider these hints, not proofs, of sin in the garden pre-eating:

1. Verse Gen 1:31 refers to everything...including the serpent who inveigled Eve which must also then include all the evil angels of the satanic rebellion who were, at that time, being held in chains of darkness in Sheol, 2 Peter 2:4 For if GOD spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement.

It seems to me that this everything somehow, tho unlikely, includes these evil angels as very good, OR everything does not refer to some beings who existed and fell into sin before this earthly creation. Now there is no proof yet that Adam existed before his earthly life and fell into sin before his earthly body but IF HE DID he might not be included in the summation the everything that was very good, just like the evil fallen angels are not included.

Also, It is not proven that very good refers to a state of being and not to a purpose. If the purpose of God's creation of the earth was as a rehab centre for those addicted to evil, ie, a reform school to chasten, convert and sanctify His fallen sinful Church by teaching them to be righteous, Hebrews 12:5-11, then His creation of the earth for the purpose of the redemption of His church could indeed be called very good even though part of creation and even part of the church was already fallen and not doing so good.

2. The words of Genesis 2:18 are very familiar to us today: The Lord God said, ‘It is not good for the man to be alone.’” Have you ever considered the implication of this NOT GOODNESS being corrected before everything was judged to be VERY GOOD, verse 1:31? Does it not imply that GOD created something as not good?

How could Adam be alone when GOD was in full fellowship with him? How does the presence of GOD need to be augmented by someone else for Adam to be not alone? Something is fishy here...

Did GOD make a mistake or did something change within HIS creation so Adam was alone in a bad way, that is, needing to be corrected? Do we not believe that the only thing that can separate us from GOD is the free will choice to be sinful, to rebel against HIM because GOD is holy and cannot create evil?

3. And how does GOD fix this not good? HE brings the animals to Adam to name them and to see if his helpmeet was among them: Gen 2:20 The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

helper: S5828. ezer
Definition: a help, helper

suitable: S5048: neged:
in front of, in sight of, opposite to
Does anyone have a reason so many, ie, most, commentators of this verse leave out any reference to the word suitable, that is, “in front of, in sight of, opposite to” as to its meaning to the verse or to the English, suitable? It seems like a wild guess as to what it means here...

So Adam did not just need a companion (perhaps a wife as most commentators suggest?) but he needed help with something... and the help was not just a general help such as with his gardening job but a specialized, suitable, helping as by a teacher, mentor for example, maybe.

4. Does this need for a specialized helper impact at all upon the question: "Whose idea was it that Adam look among the animals for a his suitable, ie specialized, helper?" GOD knew HE had Eve in the wings for him so it must have been Adam's idea that an animal might be suitable, right? So why did GOD acquiesce to Adam's wanting to look among the animals for his helper instead of just telling him, "Nope, I got someone special for you!?" It seems like there was some separation between them after all, eh? Some lack of communication between GOD and HIS perfect, faithful, creation? Only a bit of miscommunication?

Or does it imply that Adam was not as he was created, ie perfect and faithful, but was being a little rebellious to GOD, ie, unfaithful in his heart against what GOD wanted for him? Does this story imply that Adam was sinful at this time in the garden?

5. Was this why he and Eve were characterized as `RM, erm, that is, naked, the exact same word also used in the very next verse of the serpent to describe his being cunning in evil?

If `rm does mean cunning in evil for Adam and Eve before they ate, then this cannot have been their creation because they had had time after their creation to understand GOD's commands and to break at least one of them to become sinful, that is, `rm.

6. If they were in fact merely unclothed and not sinful, then why when they ate were their eyes opened to their unclothedness, the unclothedness they had before they ate, as their sin and not to their eating as their sin?? What is sinful about being unclothed as GOD created you in the privacy of your own garden? Even if this is a euphemism for sex then how is it sinful when they were ordered to procreate? Nothing about this makes sense since being unclothed cannot be a sign of sinfulness?? !

Since the rabbis were convinced Adam and Eve were created in the garden, they rejected the idea they were already sinners when they arrived in the garden (GOD cannot create evil people - at least, not until HE needs to do so for some unknown reason, a reference to the inherited sin fiasco ...another blasphemy altogether...) so they interpreted `rm as naked, not cunning in evil though the spelling was exactly the same. The Church Fathers agreed with the Hebrew scholars and ignored the implications of this story. Eisegesis blinkered by preconceptions can be fun, eh?

7. I also have concerns how this story of the fall in the garden and not before fits with
Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, etc, etc. which tells us clearly that the law was NOT given to the righteous to steer their decision but to the sinful to convict them of their sin.
Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. which suggests that the command to not eat was given to Adam and Eve as sinners to convict them of their sinfulness as it did, very well.

To sum up the hints that there was sin in the garden (not just in the serpent) before they ate:
1. It was not good that Adam was alone.
2. There is no reason for Adam to be looking amongst the animals for Eve if he was not being rebellious.
3. Adam and Eve are called `rm which is both naked or equally possible, cunning in evil.
4. When their eyes were opened to their sin by eating, they saw their nakedness, not their eating, as their sin which caused them to hide and since being naked is not a sin it must represent sinfulness which they were blind to as in Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked.
5. They were given a command which implies that they were sinners needing to have their eyes opened to their sin to convict them so they could repent and return to Christ.
6. Then there is the small point of Adam being the first to bring sin into the world. In my book the serpent entered the garden with sinful intent to sin and tempted Eve, the first to sin. Then Eve ate, the second to sin and tempted Adam, the third to sin, when he ate.

The only way it makes sense to say Adam brought sin into the world is if Adam was a sinner when he was moved from Sheol into his human body, Matthew 13:36-39, and as the first person in the garden was the first to bring evil into world.
 
And the bottom line here is there is absolutely no evidence limiting the word "all" that we see in the following verse

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
It might be but your insistence that because it is written all, then all must mean only all...
a doctrine you drop as soon as you get to an all that doesn't fit your Sunday School preconceptions of our creation...

so maybe you want to not be quite so dogmatic...
 
It might be but your insistence that because it is written all, then all must mean only all...
a doctrine you drop as soon as you get to an all that doesn't fit your Sunday School preconceptions of our creation...

so maybe you want to not be quite so dogmatic...
You have not posted a verse where I have dropped the meaning of the word all.

Especially where it would be consistent with the stated fact that Christ died for all.

And so

And the bottom line here is there is absolutely no evidence limiting the word "all" that we see in the following verse

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

People and angelic beings I would not consider the same
 
Also there's no scripture that says "sinful spirits were flung into the earth", who you imply became men
Rev 12:4 And his (the dragon) tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


If Satan and his angels are not considered as sinful spirits who were flung into this earth, then what are they? Perhaps you would rather accept that they were flung into Sheol which is in the earth and not into our surface earth? In this case Psalm 9:17 may be instructive:
Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished at death by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse:

TURN BACK; Strong’s H7725 shûb - shoob
A primitive root; to turn back
to return, turn back
• to turn back
• to return, come or go back
• to return unto, go back, come back

English Standard Version
The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

Berean Study Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.

New American Standard Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.

IF the wicked RETURN to Sheol, logic and ordinary use of language indicates that they were there before but left tlo come here. We have humans coming from Sheol and then returning back to there.

We also have Christ telling us that the good seed, the people of the kingdom are sown into the world by the Son of Man and the people of the evil one are sown into the world by the devil, Matt 13:36-39. Where were they before they were sown? And sown cannot mean to be created as the devil does this sowing also and he can't create people. Does this verse refer to the moving of people from Sheol attested to by Ps 9:17 and Psalm 139:11-15? How can it be when orthodoxy has already declares it means something else and cannot be a reference hint to our pre-conception existence. And we got the King James Bible to keep us straight (or to hide the fact of our pre-conception, pre-earth existence?) about the orthodox interpretation, that is: The wicked shall be turned into (almost the opposite to turned back to) sheol, ignoring to mention it was a return to where they were before.

But to return to Rev 12:4 And his (the dragon) tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
we have Satan flinging down, throwing down, some sinners to the earth. A look at the word for flung down, thrown down is that it apparently denotes some violence hence a destructive hostility. It is obvious that Michael and his army would throw down Satan and his evil cohorts with hostility and violence but WHY would Satan hate sinners enough to fling them away just before his great battle with the heavenly host when he needed them the most?? We can understand these 1/3 of the stars to be sinners or Satan would have no power over them but why did he not keep them to fight for him?

It is not a huge leap to think that these must be sinners who won't fight for him even though they are sinners. Now, logically, what kind of sinner (rebellious to GOD) would not openly fight against GOD? I can only think of one kind, the fallen elect, His sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful seed who are the sinful people of the kingdom...the kind of sinner Christ told us are sown, not created, into mankind by the Son of Man. Matt 13:27-30 tells us that these sinful seeds must live (on earth as humans) with the evil reprobate weeds until the harvest, ie until they are mature in holiness.

So yes, I do find sinners, both elect and reprobate sinners, being flung down to the earth into mankind...so as for no scripture that says "sinful spirits were flung into the earth" I find merely no interpretation of the obvious due to preconceptions.
 
People and angelic beings I would not consider the same
Would you then explain which part of my exposition of angels as people with which you disagree ?? I'd be most grateful... You did notice I support my contentions with scriptures?
 
God did not give Jesus any person who was not already His (God's)?
I agree with @brightfame52 on this - our difference is how we came to be His...he thinks it was by GOD's fiat choice and I think HE gave us the choice and all predestination and election or reprobation were the warned of consequences for which choice we made.
 
Of course no person can come to Christ by their own freewill, they must be dragged kicking and screaming.

They are predestined whether the like it or not. Their salvation must be accepted, regardless of any personal preference or opinion.
 
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