brightfame52
Active Member
The Sheep
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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brightfame52
Active Member
It's all the Sheep or the church or the elect or the seed or the House of Israel because He is dying a New Covenant death
Nope
John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
He died for all
Isaiah 53:6 (KJV 1900) 6 All we like sheep have gone astray;We have turned every one to his own way; And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
John 1:29 (KJV 1900) 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:14–16 (KJV 1900) 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 4:42 (KJV 1900) 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 6:33 (KJV 1900) 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
John 6:51 (KJV 1900) 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 Timothy 2:4–6 (KJV 1900) 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900) 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900) 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Hebrews 2:9 (KJV 1900) 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1 John 2:2 (KJV 1900) 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14 (KJV 1900) 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
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Seeing as the issue was the all in the verse
John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
And that men are not angels, I do not see how you have supported your contention with scripture.
GOY The Hebrew for "people," off the top of my head, not translated angel.
brightfame52
Active Member
All pertaining to the Sheep and all the rest of the scriptures you posted.
All men are not the sheep
brightfame52
Active Member
Who said they were? I'm saying Jesus draws all the Sheep Jn 10
You did
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes that is the Sheep, all of them Jn 10
Angel means messenger, a job, NOT a race or type of people,
but they are people (as I believe I have proven) and so anywhere people are indicated, so are they maybe. We don't get our understanding from what is written but from the Spirit explaining how what is written should be interpreted.
Don' t forget (or obfuscate) this goes back to your post about Job 38:7 about who saw the creation and sang HIS praises, ie, ALL THE SONS OF GOD:
I claim the stars who sang were people, just like the stars Satan flung to the earth were people, Rev 12:4. You tried to avoid this by insisting that the term 'SONS of GOD' could only refer to angels but angels are people and a star / angel flung down, Rev 12:4, then sown into the earth, into mankind, Matt 13:36-39, is then a human and I know many sons of GOD who I accept were there among ALL HIS sons singing HIS praises and counted, at that time, as HIS son!
Sinful stars who were the people of His kingdom ended up on earth, Rev 12:4, and had to live with the reprobate until the harvest, Matt 13:27-30.
Since Job 38:7 is proving difficult, then maybe you would exegete Matt 13:27-30 with Matt 13:36-39 for us?
Technically it only says He will draw ALL with no distinction of people or cats or elect or reprobate...leaving it for the
Holy Spirit to elucidate who perZactly is drawn....
since we have shown all sometimes does not mean all, sigh.
Human beings did not exist at the beginning of the creation of the world
Again there were no human beings to observe the initial creation of the world
Angels still are not human beings
Mat 13:27-30 is a parable about mingling of the righteous and the wicked in the world - the corruption of it by Satan
Matthew 13:36–39 (KJV 1900) — 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
The Son of Man is Christ; he brings the good seed into the world. His children - believers
Satan brings the evil into the world
The wicked the unrighteous are noted as his children.
John 8:44 (LEB) — 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father! That one was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand firm in the truth, because truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks the lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.
As Jesus told the Jews
At the end of the world the good seed are harvested
How you imagine this has a relation to Job 38 is a mystery
Seriously?
John 12:23–33 (LEB) — 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man will be glorified. 24 Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world preserves it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me, and where I am, there my servant will be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. 27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, deliver me from this hour’? But for this reason I have come to this hour! 28 Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have both glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 Now the crowd that stood there and heard it said it had thundered. Others were saying, “An angel has spoken to him!” 30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not happened for my sake, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world! Now the ruler of this world will be thrown out! 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 (Now he said this to indicate by what sort of death he was going to die.)
And you think there is no distinction between cats or people here?
No mention of sheep in John 12:32
Of course there were no human beings before the earth was created but there were people who were able to be sown into mankind.
There were people who saw it who were called ALL the sons of GOD so obviously some of them became human sons of GOD when they were sown into mankind Matt 13:36-39, unless you can prove that such is impossible by any hint of scripture anywhere at all...hmmm?
Angels are indeed not human beings UNTIL they are sown, ie, moved from a place of storage like Sheol, to a place of growth like thw earthly field of mankind, Matt 13:36-39.
Remember sown cannot mean to be created because in these same verses the devil is said to sow people into mankind too and he cannot create, right?
So any definition of sow must consider this fact...
brightfame52
Active Member
They were in Jn 10 same Jesus
Indeed...
Declare in this verse is diasepheo:
diasapheó: To explain thoroughly, to declare, to make clear,
not just to talk about something using more metaphor. This is why some editors say they ask Him to explain the metaphor of the parable.
Gee, not a word about the verb to sow, suggesting it means absolutely nothing - - - missing the point of them asking for a thorough explanation. Christ answers about HOW the people of the kingdom and HOW the people of the evil one come into mankind.
Christ tells them and us clearly that they are sown here, moved here from another place against the current favorite doctrine that we are created here in the womb.
IF His words are merely more metaphor then He is explaining nothing, merely repeating Himself. Remember sow cannot mean to create because in these same verses the devil is said to sow people into mankind too and he cannot create.
Since you insert the word people into this place in this verse which is NOT biblical, I stand by my words and my cat. Go make up another verse, this is fun....
There is no mention of non human beings sown into mankind in Mat 13:36
There simply is the righteous (Christians) and the unrighteous - human beings effected either by Christ or Satan
There is nothing about angels becoming human in the passage
That is, explain the meaning of the parable. This was done in so plain a manner as to render comment unnecessary. The Son of man, the Lord Jesus, sows the good seed—that is, preaches the gospel. This he did personally, and does now by his ministers, his providence, and his Spirit, by all the means of conveying truth to the mind. This seed was, by various means, to be carried over all the world. It was to be confined to no particular nation or people. The good seed was the children of the kingdom; that is, of the kingdom of God, or Christians. For these the Saviour toiled and died. They are the fruit of his labours. Yet amid them were wicked men; and all hypocrites and unbelievers in the church are the work of Satan. Yet they must remain together till the end, when they shall be separated, and the righteous saved and the wicked lost
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Matthew & Mark (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 146–147.
And still no connection to the Job passage
To sow simply can mean to bring about or pour out
Christ brought about the righteous
Satan the unrighteous
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