brightfame52
Active Member
You wish
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Neil Spargo
Active Member
Yes I wish your facts were not so incorrect. But I doubt that will ever happen.
TibiasDad
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Samson
Active Member
I think it's when we hear the Gospel. It's maybe the reason we are to to go and share the gospel. The Spirit opens people up.
When the gospel is heard with faith, we become aware of our sin, understand God's love and the forgiveness offered through Jesus, and we can receive the Holy Spirit, which enables us to live a new life marked by freedom from sin, greater obedience, and peace with God.
For those of us who believe, the gospel it provides hope for the future, spiritual transformation, and the power to live out God's will, but for those who reject it, it does not provide these benefits. They remain in their sin.
Like you said "what the Spirit has revealed to us"
TibiasDad
Active Member
John 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
That's regeneration, the drawing
FreeInChrist
Active Member
The shame of this is that @brightfame52 will not read beyond this sentence very far, if at all.
So I will copy part from below to here as it makes quite a point. Jesus draws, the Father draws, the Father gives to the Sonwhat He draws...... hmmmm?
Jesus draws all: One Way – Two Drawing Together
Given By the Father To the Son
Jesus said.
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:37-40
Why Are They Given?
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”However, here is the $64,000 question (Are you old enough to remeber the show?)
So there are two references to those who will be raised up on the last day. Those the Father has given to the Son. And those who look to the Son and believe. I think it is logical to see these as the same people.
The question then is, did they believe because the Father gave them to the Son? Or did the Father give them to the Son because they believed? I don’t see anything in this part of the passage that would give any clarity on this.
John 6:44-47
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
FOR WHAT PURPOSE DID JESUS SAY "I will draw all men to Myself" in John 12:32?
I will Draw ALL to Me
Jesus said, “I will draw all men unto Me.” The result of the conditional phrase coming to pass is that Jesus would draw all people to Himself.The word “draw” is from the Greek word, “helkyo,” which means to draw, pull, haul, drag, or attract. This same word was used in John 21:6 in reference to the disciples not being able to haul in their fishing net because it was so full.
ATTRACT!!! A valid definition, even in Strong's. Predestioned people, however will avoid this. Why? Attract = Free Will.
Jesus draws all men to Himself? John 12:32 - The Giving
Jesus said that He will draw all men to Himself, but many do not believe His promise. They say that not all people come to Jesus so Jesus must NOT be drawing all men. How can we see the Bible as proving the words of Jesus are true? A challenging call to believe Jesus. From passages in John 6...
mmoutreach.org
Jesus draws all men to Himself? John 12:32
September 26, 2015 Cheryl Schatz Comments80 comments
Jesus draws all men to Himself?
In John 12:32 Jesus draws all men to Himself. Is this true or must we reinterpret Jesus to remove His promise?
John 12:32 (NASB) “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men to Myself.”
Are all people drawn to Jesus? We know for sure that not all people come to Jesus because we know that not all will believe in Him. However, Jesus said that He WILL draw ALL men to Himself. So, what does Jesus mean in this context? Let’s lookout His words to understand His meaning.
In John 12:27 it states the purpose He came is for this hour so although He is troubled He will not ask to be saved from this hour.
John 12:27 (NASB) “Now My soul has become troubled: and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
Jesus is speaking to a crowd of unbelievers (see verse 37). And in verse 30 Jesus says that the voice from heaven was for the benefit of this unbelieving crowd.
John 12:30 (NASB) Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
John 12:37 (NASB) But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
Jesus said that He came for this hour. Jesus came to die, yet so many of those who heard Him speak did not believe. They weren’t just not believing Jesus. They did not believe God the Father. Some say that their unbelief was what God predestined for them from all of eternity. But there is a problem with this view because of the words of Jesus. Jesus speaks about drawing all, not just some. If God did not desire for all to come to faith, then Jesus would never draw all. John 12:32 is a dividing line between the truth and error, but to some, it doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t seem to be true.
Jesus says that IF He is lifted up from the earth (John 12:33 shows this is His death on the cross) that He WILL draw ALL men to Himself.
Jesus draws all: One Way – Two Drawing Together
Was Jesus crucified on the cross? Yes! Then the condition is met.
YET…
No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. And…no one can come to the Father except through Jesus.
John 6:44 (NASB) “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 14:6 (NASB) Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
If Jesus is the source or people coming to the Father (God), then Jesus’ statement must mean that He will draw people to Himself as God. For Jesus IS God and a belief in God must precede a belief in Jesus. While the condition is met for Jesus to draw all people, there still exists a condition for those who will respond to the drawing.
Jesus draws all: The Two Conditions
Hebrews 11:6 (NASB) And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Jesus is God’s revelation in the flesh. But the one who is able to respond to the drawing of Jesus toward God must believe two things. The person must:
There it is. Jesus draws people TO God, and those who will hear and respond and believe the revelation of God will be allowed to come to the Father. And those who believe the Father’s revelation about Jesus, will be allowed to come to Jesus. It is all about faith in the amount of revelation that one has been given. Those who have been given revelation about God, but who refuse to believe the revelation they are given will never come to Jesus. Jesus made it clear that those who refused to believe the Father’s word through Moses cannot believe in the words of life from Jesus.
- Believe that God IS – that God exists.
- Believe that God responds to those who seek Him.
John 5:46-47 (NASB)
46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Is Jesus drawing all men to Himself? We have to believe that He is doing that unless we believe that Jesus is a liar. Do all men come to Jesus? The Scripture says that they do not. So what witness was Jesus giving?
The Cross reveals Jesus as the I AM
By His death and resurrection and His inheriting all things, Jesus has the power and authority to have His will be done. It is all in the hands of Jesus as the I AM.
Matthew 11:27 (NASB) “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
This is Jesus:
Romans 1:19 (NASB) because that which is known about God is evident with them; for God made it evident to them.
Jesus made it evident to them. The pagans in the third world have been drawn to God by Jesus as He has revealed the nature of God to them. He promised to draw ALL men to Him. I believe that, and I believe Him. Do you believe Him?
Jesus draws all men to Himself
This post is to challenge all of us to believe Jesus rather than human reasoning.
TibiasDad
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TibiasDad
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Speculator
Active Member
The blood of Jesus saves you. We make the choice to believe in Him or reject Him.
brightfame52
Active Member
No man can come to Christ naturally because by nature as Paul writes concerning the gentiles in Eph 2 they are helpless and without hope in themselves pertaining to Salvation Eph 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Man naturally, is without spiritual strength Rom 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. We were by nature powerless to help ourselves, in a dead lost spiritual state ! 10
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Man naturally, is without spiritual strength Rom 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. We were by nature powerless to help ourselves, in a dead lost spiritual state ! 10
civic
Active Member
yes that seems to be the norm
civic
Active Member
yep
brightfame52
Active Member
Doesn't change anything, the drawing is the application of spiritual life. Also the all men Jesus draws are Justified because He died for them. So He draws all the Justified unto Him
brightfame52
Active Member
Of the elect yes , or they all will be in time
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes its part of it, one of its elements
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Truer words have not been spoken.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes legally, but the spirit saves in conjunction vitally Titus 3:5-6
5 ;Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Well, then. who does the Father draw to Jesus.... They both draw.... the same people?
Jesus draws people TO God, and those who will hear and respond and believe the revelation of God will be allowed to come to the Father. And those who believe the Father’s revelation about Jesus, will be allowed to come to Jesus. It is all about faith in the amount of revelation that one has been given. = Jesus is God.
BTW>.. Jesus' drawing is understood as an invitation to faith, where individuals can respond to God's call.
IT CHANGES EVERYTHING. AN INVITATION TO FAITH is not THE APPLICATION OF A SPIRITUAL LIFE.
You say" Also the all men Jesus draws are Justified because He died for them."
Book , chapter, and verse.... or the link where you read that.
brightfame52
Active Member
@TibiasDad
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
We were reconciled is in the passive aorist past tense, its a done deal, now how was it done according to Rom 5:10
God made the move and accomplished it by Christs death, His death reconciled the elect to God Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
We were reconciled is in the passive aorist past tense, its a done deal, now how was it done according to Rom 5:10
