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civic
Active Member
I’m willing to defend the eternal Son side
Peterlag
Active Member
Hebrews 1:2 "by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir"
The fact that God appointed the Son to be “heir” shows that God and the Son are not equal. For the Son to be the “heir” means that there was a time when he was not the owner. The word “heir” is a common one and, because death and inheritance are a part of every culture, it occurs in all the biblical languages. Any dictionary will show that an heir is one who inherits, succeeds, or receives an estate, rank, title, or office of another. By definition, you cannot be an heir if you are already the owner. No one in history ever wrote a will that said “My heir and the inheritor of my estate is ME.” If Christ is God, then he cannot be “heir.” The only way he can be an heir is by not being the original owner. That Christ is an “heir” is inconsistent with Trinitarian doctrine, which states that Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. If Christ were God, then he was part owner all along and thus is not the “heir” at all.
Runningman
Active Member
Did you mispeak when you said the below?@Runningman
You said: "Red Baker is not a trinitarian"
Of course I am, according to the scriptures. God is a Spirit that inhabits eternity, always has, always will and as I have said so many times...this will "never" change.
John 4:24
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
Isaiah 57:15
“For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.”
He said in this very scripture he dwells with those who have a contrite spirit; and in the NT, the mystery of Christ is that HE dwells in in us, which make God and Christ ONE. Yet Christ is a person, God is a Spirit, so there you have more than ONE, in any way you look at at it, yet one in essence, etc. The three in one is revealed in the NT based on their work respectively in the redemption of God's elect. Nevertheless, if one truly ponders this very much, how can you truly separate God who is a Spirit from the Holy Ghost/Spirit? Only by the work respectively under the NT.
Colossians 1:26
“Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:”
You said: "He's even a heretic by trinitarian standards."
You are correct in this assessment ~ yet, when one truly gives this some thoughts, they generally admit that they could be wrong, and of course they are, for most have embrace the eternal Sonship position without considering its ramifications, just as prompting the JW'S false teaching that Jesus is inferior to his Father, when in truth he is equal.
You said: God manifests himself as three different ways, but those three different manifestations are not God? He's a modalist.
I'm not a modalist ~ Since as I just explain above, God is a Spirit that dwells/lives in eternity, which no man can approach unto, or has ever seen, or, can see. Jesus Christ is his Son was born into this world and men have given a testimony that they seen, looked upon, their hands handled, of the Word of life!
1st John 1:1-3
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto ushat which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”
The Father remained in eternity, while his Son lived in this world, being the express image of whom God was was in human flesh, and by the very fact he was God only begotten Son (begotten in the manner in which he was begotten) made him equal with God, in any way you want to look at it. Call me whatever you desire to label me with, I'm strictly going by the scriptures and can defend my position with the word of God.
In his Deity AS GOD, he created all things. No problem, by separating Jesus' complex nature.
You said: "irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation."
Jesus as the Son of God was conceived and born around two thousand years ago, we have the record of his birth recorded for us in Luke's gospel. God had no Son until then, only in his eternal purposes did he purpose to have a Son.
That is not scriptural but someone's opinion with no proof other than the Greek said so, and that does not count. I have more than once explain the meaning of Son and Father relationship to each other. This teaching destroys Jesus' Deity as God
It does not said anything close to that. John is simply stating the the Word was God without any qualifications. I can and will come back later and address John 1:1 in depth. I'm heading back to bed, I could not sleep so I got up, but now very shortly I'm heading.
Jesus was the God of Genesis 1:1, so yes in his Divine nature he was God. Even while on earth, he was IN HEAVEN as far as being God manifest in the flesh!
John 3:13
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”Jesus was NOT the Word in the beginning, God was the Word, Jesus was the Son of God born in time.
One more time:
The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.
Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time ~ Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation ~ therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity ~ is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.
I'm going to bed..I'll pick up here later. It is past 2:00 am
.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Explain how they used Catholic translating when they were working with the original documents
@Runningman
You asked: "Did you mispeak when you said the below?"
It is very simple to give an overview of the Godhead's working from the scriptures.
In the beginning there was God, a Spirit that lived in eternity. Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind ~according to his own testimony, there were no other Gods, he knew not any. (Read Isaiah 42-48...44:8, etc.) This Infinite Being was perfectly happy within Himself, and needed not one thing to make him more glorious and perfect, and happy than he was. He lacked in not one thing. Whatever He did, was so others could enjoy who He was and share somewhat is his infinite greatest.
God purpose to create was not for anything outside of his own glory and pleasure ~ Ephesians one and Colossians one, etc.
God's infinite knowledge understood perfectly what ever he did, would be less than who he is, for true Divinity cannot be deprived or propagated? So in creation He prepared a way to created and to secured both angels and a people for himself through election of pure grace. God knew perfectly that if he created, evil would come, for there is only ONE Infinite Being who loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
God purposed to have a Son in His own express image to redeem his people that he elected to share in His eternal glory. From Genesis 1:1 forward we all read of creation and that which followed in time.
Jesus, God's Son was born around two thousand plus years ago, we have God's witness of when, and where this took place, We have his mother's named and his supposed father's name and his siblings through Mary and Joseph, some of their names. Jesus was more than just a man, he was a complex person sharing both humanity, and God's nature, since he had no earthly father, he was conceived by the power of the Highest, and many things in his earthly life proved that he was no ordinary flesh and blood person. Never a man spoke as he did. Never a man performed miracles as he did. He knew what others were thinking in their heart, which no man ordinary man can possible know. He had power to forgive sins and to heal every disease. He confessed more than once that His Father and him were one. By confessing God was his Father his enemies knew exactly what that meant, he was making himself equal to God and he was in his Deity by The Word joining Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God. To be short, his resurrection proved him to be the Son of God by the spirit of holiness, a spirit that Adam never exhibited, though created upright and placed in a world where there were very little temptation to cause him to sin, yet he still did as soon as God left him and Eve to themselves.
Being raised from the dead he now sits at God's right hand, or as high as anyone can be exalted to. He is BOTH Lord and Christ.
Jesus Christ will be the ONLY Lord God any man or angels will ever see and bow down to and worship and give account to!
God who is a Spirit lives in eternity, that will never change, impossible. I could spend hours providing scriptures proving that Jesus Christ is the true God, and eternal life, and no man will enter into life/the world to come , except by believing in him as the giver thereof.
So, how many God's will we see in that day? ONE ~ Jesus Christ. His Father who is a Spirit will continue to live on in eternity, that can never change. The Son will submit himself to his Father according to his humanity only, yet they are one in nature, in deity as God blessed forever.
Sorry if I rushed this, but I have much to do today.
You asked: "Did you mispeak when you said the below?"
No.
It is very simple to give an overview of the Godhead's working from the scriptures.
In the beginning there was God, a Spirit that lived in eternity. Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind ~according to his own testimony, there were no other Gods, he knew not any. (Read Isaiah 42-48...44:8, etc.) This Infinite Being was perfectly happy within Himself, and needed not one thing to make him more glorious and perfect, and happy than he was. He lacked in not one thing. Whatever He did, was so others could enjoy who He was and share somewhat is his infinite greatest.
God purpose to create was not for anything outside of his own glory and pleasure ~ Ephesians one and Colossians one, etc.
God's infinite knowledge understood perfectly what ever he did, would be less than who he is, for true Divinity cannot be deprived or propagated? So in creation He prepared a way to created and to secured both angels and a people for himself through election of pure grace. God knew perfectly that if he created, evil would come, for there is only ONE Infinite Being who loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
God purposed to have a Son in His own express image to redeem his people that he elected to share in His eternal glory. From Genesis 1:1 forward we all read of creation and that which followed in time.
Jesus, God's Son was born around two thousand plus years ago, we have God's witness of when, and where this took place, We have his mother's named and his supposed father's name and his siblings through Mary and Joseph, some of their names. Jesus was more than just a man, he was a complex person sharing both humanity, and God's nature, since he had no earthly father, he was conceived by the power of the Highest, and many things in his earthly life proved that he was no ordinary flesh and blood person. Never a man spoke as he did. Never a man performed miracles as he did. He knew what others were thinking in their heart, which no man ordinary man can possible know. He had power to forgive sins and to heal every disease. He confessed more than once that His Father and him were one. By confessing God was his Father his enemies knew exactly what that meant, he was making himself equal to God and he was in his Deity by The Word joining Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God. To be short, his resurrection proved him to be the Son of God by the spirit of holiness, a spirit that Adam never exhibited, though created upright and placed in a world where there were very little temptation to cause him to sin, yet he still did as soon as God left him and Eve to themselves.
Being raised from the dead he now sits at God's right hand, or as high as anyone can be exalted to. He is BOTH Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”Jesus Christ will be the ONLY Lord God any man or angels will ever see and bow down to and worship and give account to!
God who is a Spirit lives in eternity, that will never change, impossible. I could spend hours providing scriptures proving that Jesus Christ is the true God, and eternal life, and no man will enter into life/the world to come , except by believing in him as the giver thereof.
So, how many God's will we see in that day? ONE ~ Jesus Christ. His Father who is a Spirit will continue to live on in eternity, that can never change. The Son will submit himself to his Father according to his humanity only, yet they are one in nature, in deity as God blessed forever.
Sorry if I rushed this, but I have much to do today.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Red I am going to copy and paste whatever you have posted and my posts along with anyone elses that I see between this one
and the one you said "debate".
You have just sent me another war and peace length reply, after I provided biblical scripture that proves Jesus as son was before
his physical birth and I want this to keep to topic with no distractions.
I am putting it under THE BIBLE forum FOR THIS IS A BIBLICAL THING
THE LINK IS AT
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Jump right on in. AND ANYONE ELSEI’m willing to defend the eternal Son side
I just finished an open debate under the Bible forum... for that is the challenge of which it
does or does not prove...
The link is https://berean-apologetics.communit...-vs-incarnate-sonship-which-is-biblical.2739/
@FreeInChrist
Almighty God, Father of Jesus Christ, is the ultimate Source and Power of life. He breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life for him to be a living soul. He was the power in Elijah and Elisha in the cases of resurrecting two sons. The LORD Jehovah has eternal life Himself and give it to whomsoever He will.
So hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.
The same independent, sovereign way God has life, He has given it to the Son, when he was made flesh, until then God had no Son. We fully agree that Jesus Christ has the sovereign authority to give or withhold life from anyone. He lives, was dead, and is alive forever (Rev 1:18). He rules hell and death. He has the key of David as Almighty King (Rev 3:7). He only opens and shuts. Jesus is the resurrection and the life in all ways ~ bodily, spiritual, and eternal.
You said: "Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this."
You are adding "eternally". @FreeInChrist, does Son and father have any meaning to you according to their true meaning?
God loved the his elect before the foundation of the world, yet we were born in time. We might add, whatever glory Christ had with his father before the foundation of the earth, was in Christ's deity as the God of Genesis 1:1.
You said: "Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth."
You are assuming something you cannot prove. Not only that, you by these statements you are making are denying Jesus' Deity as being eternal both ways! A Son is not before the Father, impossible. I truly do not think you desire to deny Jesus' Deity, but by your statements you are. You might want to reconsider what you are saying, and I trust that you will.
So, I ask you this question.... since the Jews did that which they had see with their father, does this make them eternal children in the sense you are trying to make Jesus the eternal Son of God by what he had see with his father? I do not think you want to go there with this verse!
The lesson is not His incarnational sonship as much as His unity in doctrine. Just as following the lesson is not biological connection but unity in spirit ~ the Jews did works of the devil. Like father, like son …
I'm convinced you need to study this out more than you have it seems to me.
There's not one word in John 5:26 that speaks of God imparting the power to have life within Jesus Christ before he was born of flesh and blood.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
For as the Father hath life in himself.Almighty God, Father of Jesus Christ, is the ultimate Source and Power of life. He breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life for him to be a living soul. He was the power in Elijah and Elisha in the cases of resurrecting two sons. The LORD Jehovah has eternal life Himself and give it to whomsoever He will.
So hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.
The same independent, sovereign way God has life, He has given it to the Son, when he was made flesh, until then God had no Son. We fully agree that Jesus Christ has the sovereign authority to give or withhold life from anyone. He lives, was dead, and is alive forever (Rev 1:18). He rules hell and death. He has the key of David as Almighty King (Rev 3:7). He only opens and shuts. Jesus is the resurrection and the life in all ways ~ bodily, spiritual, and eternal.
You said: "Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this."
You are adding "eternally". @FreeInChrist, does Son and father have any meaning to you according to their true meaning?
What part? "You loved Me before the foundation of the world".
God loved the his elect before the foundation of the world, yet we were born in time. We might add, whatever glory Christ had with his father before the foundation of the earth, was in Christ's deity as the God of Genesis 1:1.
Jesus Christ was very close to God by His divine nature, begetting, and Spirit.
You said: "Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth."
You are assuming something you cannot prove. Not only that, you by these statements you are making are denying Jesus' Deity as being eternal both ways! A Son is not before the Father, impossible. I truly do not think you desire to deny Jesus' Deity, but by your statements you are. You might want to reconsider what you are saying, and I trust that you will.
Stop and think...Notice what the Lord Jesus said:
John 8:38
“I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.”So, I ask you this question.... since the Jews did that which they had see with their father, does this make them eternal children in the sense you are trying to make Jesus the eternal Son of God by what he had see with his father? I do not think you want to go there with this verse!
The lesson is not His incarnational sonship as much as His unity in doctrine. Just as following the lesson is not biological connection but unity in spirit ~ the Jews did works of the devil. Like father, like son …
I'm convinced you need to study this out more than you have it seems to me.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Are you going to make me move this to the debate on this subject?
I wont respond becuase this is not the right place
Runningman
Active Member
You started off good, but it completely went over your head who God is despite quoting the verse that explicitly says such. You just said there are no other Gods aside from that one God identified with singular personal pronouns. Don't nuke it. It means God is just one eprson. God is never described as a trinity or a multi-person being in the Bible.
There are no originals are you kidding?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Where the ____ did the ideas come from. Their imaginations?.
You are proving my contention that Adam was not the first man and no one can say he was because there were no texts.
Yippee, hooray.
What about the Torah? What about the Masoretic Text (MT) is the authoritative Hebrew text of the Old Testament, standardized by Jewish scribes between the 6th and 10th centuries AD, while the Septuagint (LXX) is an ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures completed in the 3rd century BC
Long before there was ever a RCC thought of because Peter was not even born yet
What about the dead sea scrolls?
15,000 fragments of about 850 scrolls from ancient Judaism
The Dead Sea Scrolls, in the narrow sense identical with the Qumran Caves Scrolls, are a set of ancient Jewish manuscripts from the Second Temple period. They were discovered over a period of ten years, between 1946 and 1956, at the Qumran Caves near Ein Feshkha in the West Bank, on the northern shore of the Dead Sea
Long before there was ever a RCC thought of because Peter was not even born yet
What about the book of Enoch. Have you read it?
There is not one thought in there that could compare to anything in a Catholic bible. Not one.
There are a lot of writings that you are unaware of, and of the Israeli side of things...
So quit saying there are none and start to read. Oh, well if you cant understand what you are reading
AI will help as would several people here, if you are nice enough, to help you along.
But what I would do would be to pull up a copy of the Hebrew Interlinar and from that copy some
of the old testament scriptures and then Monday morning call your local closest synagogue and
ask to talk to a Rabbi... and ask him if you brought or sent these phrases to him would he
translate.
I say this way because you would know they would be straight up and no playing around with words.
Then you can do the same with the Greek Interlinear. Just one verse I would start with and that
is John 1:1 And try to find a middle aged to older Greek person... ideally here from Greece and
preferably an atheist or agnostic and do the same...
I know you cannot read the Ethiopian Bible... I could not get it because I was wanting to check things.
But keep on looking and do not take the words of a single translation for Gospel.... there will be errors.
I wish, I truly wish you were able to study and know about the Rabbis of that time... OT and early.
If you were you would know that not even your NWT got it right about Rabbi Jesus.
anyway... I found out some NWT info and on Charles Taze Russell. Seems he was almost a contemporary
pf SDA Ellen White and both of them had been influenced by William Miller... of Millerite fame.
Of course you know all of this so it is not new to you.
But so interesting into the time mix we have also Joseph Smith. .. Just crazy. But at least he was distanced from Miller.
Well... seems I have lost all my notes on here for the past hour plus so... I will send this and see if I can
find them
