Law, wrath, and grace

[Joe]

"For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression." (Rom 4:15)

"...you are not under law but under grace." (Rom 6:14)

(Rom 3:19-26, NLT) Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. (20) For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. (21) But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. (22) We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. (23) For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. (24) Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. (25) For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, (26) for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

The Law reveals we are guilty of sin, and it also reveals how God ultimately deals with our sin; the sacrificial death of a spotless-unblemished lamb that dies for the sins of the people. In the Law we can see both the righteousness of God that we fall short, and the grace of God that removes our shortcoming. What we do not see is any wrath poured out upon the sacrifices. What we see is a quick death of an unblemished animal that is holy to the Lord and dies for one purpose, for the sins of the people. The people placed their hands upon the animal and confessed their sins. This was not imputation of sin, but a declaration of their own sins and the realization the spotless-guiltless animal was dying on their behalf so they could live. And so it is with our declaration of belief in Jesus Christ. We are water baptized to associate ourselves with His death for us on a cross, where He willingly took the judgement of death for our sins. We realize that our sinless Lord died for sins so we can live a newness of life, and we publicly declare that in water baptism (Rom 6:3-7).

Jesus Christ is God's Lamb that He sent into this world to exchange His sinless-spotless, unblemished human life for our freedom from sin and death (Heb 9:15). His death was purposed. It was for putting an end to sin, bringing in everlasting righteousness, and making reconciliation for our iniquity (ref, Dan 9:24). God initiated His new covenant with the blood of His own Son, "And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."(Mat 26:27-28), and with His death the old covenant that brings wrath upon us is obsoleted, "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete." (Heb 8:13) And in speaking of the new covenant, "I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” (Heb 8:10-12)

The central theme of the Lord's death was for purifying us of sin. It was not about God pouring wrath out upon Him. There is no record of any NT author in the bible expressing God pouring wrath upon His Son. What we do read from the Apostle Paul is quite the opposite. Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, "But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation; namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2Co 5:18-19). When did reconciliation-atonement happen? It happened when our Lord died on the cross for our sins. God was in Him when that happened. What is the ministry that Paul stated God gave him to minister? "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses".

Our Lord Himself made this statement to the disciples the night of His arrest, "Behold, the time is coming, yes, and has now come, that you will be scattered, everyone to his own place, and you will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me." (Joh 16:32) And we know when our Lord gave up His life unto death He said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" (Luke 23:46)

The death of the Lord was a mission of love and mercy. God was in His Son and never left Him alone; this is what we read in the bible. God was not pouring wrath upon His Son, as I once thought too. Instead, "God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ: (2 Cor 5:21, NLT)

It is true "the Law brings wrath", but it is also true "grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ." (Rom 5:17)

Our Lord died as a ransom to set us free from sin, and He arose to give us eternal life. His death was explicitly for the removal-purification of our sins and the enactment of the new covenant; and all of this by God's loving and merciful grace. Our Lord Jesus Christ bought us out of the first contract and put us under a new better one...one that lasts forever! (Heb 8 and 9)

God Bless

 

[civic]

Wow Joe what an excellent first post on our new forum. I miss your wisdom and insight brother. I love the way you can communicate the deep truths and simplify them in laymen’s terms. Thanks for posting this and I will use some of this in my paper snd credit your insight and wisdom into our Lords atonement for our sins.

 

[Diserner]

Hello, Joe, good to see you here as well.

I'm really glad you are attempting to interact with some of the verses supporting PSA, I really appreciate that.


Ever heard the saying, "There's no such thing as a free lunch?"

Or how about, "A shortcut seldom is?"


We know, even if the lunch comes to us free, someone, somewhere paid for it.

And it is interesting just how much Scripture uses "payment" language in both the OT and the NT, this is very significant.


But what is essentially being said here is this:

Jesus can pay for us, without really paying.


That's the argument, logically, from the anti-PSA crowd.

It's not about God being angry, we already know there are instances of this.

It's not about God punishing God, because if God wanted to do that, who could stop him?


It's about the holiness of God demanding punishment for sin. And yet with all this sneaky "God is all love" language, we deny a very vital, essential, and integral part of God.

God does not acquire a "new" attribute upon creating the world, as some on this forum try to argue, for God is eternal.


God is not just love.

Else there would be in punishment, no judgment, no hell, no wrath anywhere at all, no diseases, viruses, pain, suffering, torture, abuse, neglect, unfairness, loneliness, sadness, unhappiness, violence, evil.


God is not just love.

If God were JUST love—think of it—God would allow anybody to do anything.

God would not have enemies, if he were JUST love.

God would send Satan flowers every morning and make him a fresh cup of coffee, if God were JUST love.

God would never rebuke or warn or threaten anyone, if God were JUST love.

There would be nothing painful or confusing or offensive or hard, if God were JUST love.

If God were JUST love, there would be no need to punish sin.... ever.


So what we see here, is that people who deny PSA, are denying an essential attribute of God:

God's hatred for sin.
God's necessary judgment on sin.
So they "rewrite" the Cross to be about anything BUT judging sin.


The Cross is about God being willing to show he will suffer.

But not judgment on sin.


The Cross is about God being a super nice fella' who is willing to get beat up and killed.

But not judgment on sin.


The Cross is about God showing he's in charge and governs the world.

But not judgment on sin.


The Cross is about God beating up the devil and giving him a big black eye.

But not judgment on sin.


The Cross is about God defeating death and giving creation a brand new chance.

But not judgment on sin!


The Cross is about Jesus being a great example to us, and inspiring us to die like him.

But not judgment... on our sins.



See how that tricky "swapparoo" happens in this shell game, where we sneak out one of God's essential attributes?

Anti-PSA advocates, like those who deny the Trinity, like to claim there is no verse to support God has to judge sin with wrath on his Son.

But, like the Trinity, there are clear and obvious deductions we cannot escape from, and God expects us to make deductions in the Bible.


There is no verse that says God skips over justice. There is no verse that says God will leave sin unpunished. And yet they try to take verses that express God's forgiveness won through the Cross and through Jesus' suffering, and neuter and rip out the actual sacrificial element of Christ that is made to suffer for the sins of the world, as if God can just skip over his own holiness!


Anti-PSA is a spirital "free lunch."

The Law doesn't bring wrath under this scenario, because Jesus never really has to pay for our sins.

But the whole reason Jesus said he came, the cup of redemption in his blood for the forgiveness, the basis of the ransom, was the true actual substitution in our place.


You said in your post:

It is true "the Law brings wrath."

But it's not true, if the we all sinned against the Law, yet there was no wrath against our sins, it all just magically disappears without honoring God's holiness.

That's striking at the very CORE of the Gospel, the DEEPEST and MOST CENTRAL reason Christ came to die, to die in our place, to suffer what we should have gotten.

Not less.



There's a great advertisement for sugar I once saw, it is short and gets your attention:

"Sugar. There is no substitute."

Now we all know they are always trying to find a substitute for sugar, because everyone has a sweet tooth.


But there is a substance and authenticity that an artificial substitute just never has to the original.

What we are being offered here, is a spiritual "artificial substitute" for the punishment of our sins.

Jesus does not have to really fulfill the Law's punishment, he doesn't really have to pay, he just has to physically die.



I encourage people to deeply meditate and study on this rebuttal to the anti-PSA crowd here:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-10-most-commonly-referred-to-points-against-psa.115/page-2#post-3377

 

[Soyeong]

"For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression." (Rom 4:15)

"...you are not under law but under grace." (Rom 6:14)

While it is true that there is a law that we are not under, Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was referring to us a not being under. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-11, Paul contrasted a law our faith upholds with a law that is not of faith, and in Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death.

In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so we are still under it and obligated to refrain from sin. Furthermore, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God's law and against sin. For example, in Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Law of God is the content of God's gift of eternal life in Christ, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to obey it (1 John 2:6).

(Rom 3:19-26, NLT) Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. (20) For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. (21) But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. (22) We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. (23) For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. (24) Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. (25) For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, (26) for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so he experience of knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3). The Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of the nature of God as it does to describe aspects of the nature of the Law of God, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good, and this is because it is God's instructions for how to experience those aspects of His nature, and the way to have the experience of knowing God is though experiencing aspects of His nature, while the Law of God gives us knowledge of sin by contrast, which is far from saying that the law simply shows us how sinful we are.

In Romans 3:21-22, the one and only way to become righteous that is testified about by the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Jesus, so we do not earn our righteousness by obeying God's law because that was not one of the ways to become righteous that was testified about in the Law of Prophets. However, to become righteous means to become someone who practices righteousness and God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. This is why the faith by which we are justified part from having practiced righteousness does not abolish our need to practice righteousness, but rather our faith upholds out need to do that (Romans 3:28-31).

Jesus Christ is God's Lamb that He sent into this world to exchange His sinless-spotless, unblemished human life for our freedom from sin and death (Heb 9:15). His death was purposed. It was for putting an end to sin, bringing in everlasting righteousness, and making reconciliation for our iniquity (ref, Dan 9:24). God initiated His new covenant with the blood of His own Son, "And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."(Mat 26:27-28), and with His death the old covenant that brings wrath upon us is obsoleted, "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete." (Heb 8:13) And in speaking of the new covenant, "I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” (Heb 8:10-12)

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that the New Covenant can replace it is if it does everything that the Mosaic Covenant does plus more, which is one it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:12). This is why the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10), plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6).

 

[Joe]

Wow Joe what an excellent first post on our new forum. I miss your wisdom and insight brother. I love the way you can communicate the deep truths and simplify them in laymen’s terms. Thanks for posting this and I will use some of this in my paper snd credit your insight and wisdom into our Lords atonement for our sins.

Thank you for the kind words Brother. May the Lord bless you even greater in your endeavors, as we live with great expectation for the redemption of our bodies.

God Bless

 

[Joe]

Hello, Joe, good to see you here as well.

I'm really glad you are attempting to interact with some of the verses supporting PSA, I really appreciate that.


Ever heard the saying, "There's no such thing as a free lunch?"

Or how about, "A shortcut seldom is?"


We know, even if the lunch comes to us free, someone, somewhere paid for it.

And it is interesting just how much Scripture uses "payment" language in both the OT and the NT, this is very significant.


But what is essentially being said here is this:

Jesus can pay for us, without really paying.


That's the argument, logically, from the anti-PSA crowd.

It's not about God being angry, we already know there are instances of this.

It's not about God punishing God, because if God wanted to do that, who could stop him?


It's about the holiness of God demanding punishment for sin. And yet with all this sneaky "God is all love" language, we deny a very vital, essential, and integral part of God.

God does not acquire a "new" attribute upon creating the world, as some on this forum try to argue, for God is eternal.


God is not just love.

Else there would be in punishment, no judgment, no hell, no wrath anywhere at all, no diseases, viruses, pain, suffering, torture, abuse, neglect, unfairness, loneliness, sadness, unhappiness, violence, evil.


God is not just love.

If God were JUST love—think of it—God would allow anybody to do anything.

God would not have enemies, if he were JUST love.

God would send Satan flowers every morning and make him a fresh cup of coffee, if God were JUST love.

God would never rebuke or warn or threaten anyone, if God were JUST love.

There would be nothing painful or confusing or offensive or hard, if God were JUST love.

If God were JUST love, there would be no need to punish sin.... ever.


So what we see here, is that people who deny PSA, are denying an essential attribute of God:

God's hatred for sin.
God's necessary judgment on sin.
So they "rewrite" the Cross to be about anything BUT judging sin.


The Cross is about God being willing to show he will suffer.

But not judgment on sin.


The Cross is about God being a super nice fella' who is willing to get beat up and killed.

But not judgment on sin.


The Cross is about God showing he's in charge and governs the world.

But not judgment on sin.


The Cross is about God beating up the devil and giving him a big black eye.

But not judgment on sin.


The Cross is about God defeating death and giving creation a brand new chance.

But not judgment on sin!


The Cross is about Jesus being a great example to us, and inspiring us to die like him.

But not judgment... on our sins.



See how that tricky "swapparoo" happens in this shell game, where we sneak out one of God's essential attributes?

Anti-PSA advocates, like those who deny the Trinity, like to claim there is no verse to support God has to judge sin with wrath on his Son.

But, like the Trinity, there are clear and obvious deductions we cannot escape from, and God expects us to make deductions in the Bible.


There is no verse that says God skips over justice. There is no verse that says God will leave sin unpunished. And yet they try to take verses that express God's forgiveness won through the Cross and through Jesus' suffering, and neuter and rip out the actual sacrificial element of Christ that is made to suffer for the sins of the world, as if God can just skip over his own holiness!


Anti-PSA is a spirital "free lunch."

The Law doesn't bring wrath under this scenario, because Jesus never really has to pay for our sins.

But the whole reason Jesus said he came, the cup of redemption in his blood for the forgiveness, the basis of the ransom, was the true actual substitution in our place.


You said in your post:



But it's not true, if the we all sinned against the Law, yet there was no wrath against our sins, it all just magically disappears without honoring God's holiness.

That's striking at the very CORE of the Gospel, the DEEPEST and MOST CENTRAL reason Christ came to die, to die in our place, to suffer what we should have gotten.

Not less.



There's a great advertisement for sugar I once saw, it is short and gets your attention:

"Sugar. There is no substitute."

Now we all know they are always trying to find a substitute for sugar, because everyone has a sweet tooth.


But there is a substance and authenticity that an artificial substitute just never has to the original.

What we are being offered here, is a spiritual "artificial substitute" for the punishment of our sins.

Jesus does not have to really fulfill the Law's punishment, he doesn't really have to pay, he just has to physically die.



I encourage people to deeply meditate and study on this rebuttal to the anti-PSA crowd here:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-10-most-commonly-referred-to-points-against-psa.115/page-2#post-3377

Hello Brother, I'm glad to be here. Thank you.

"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear (remove-purify) the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (Heb 9:24-28)

We read in the bible that God is Holy and will not condone sin, and yet He has mercy on the repentant and justifies the unjust. God's mercy is what saves us from His wrath. God is still true to His character from the OT to the NT. He had mercy on the repentant sinner then and He does now. Its that now in this age of the NT, God sent His Son to be a sin offering for us, putting an end to sin, having brought in everlasting righteousness, and has made reconciliation for our iniquities.

God provided a way of saving man from condemnation on the day of judgement. And that provision is His Son giving up His sinless life as a sin offering, dying for our sins having none of His own, to remove the guilt of our sin, so that on judgement day those who believe in Him are "Passover" (Exo 12:11-14), having accepted the sinless life of the Lord dying for their sins (Heb 9:24-28).

In our modern day vernacular it is similar to a plea bargain. We plead guilty as charged in the indictment against us as stated in Rom 3:10-18.

"as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

​

And upon pleading guilty as charged, we accept the bargain of God's mercy that God delivered to humanity through His Son, John 3:16-17.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."​

The Law brings wrath on the lawbreaker at judgement, but the mercy of God averts, not diverts that wrath by accepting a sinless life to die for the sins of the sinful (sin offering), which is instituted and acceptable by God for the removal of sins...This is revealed to us in the Law of Moses, and is manifested to us in the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, God's Lamb that He gave to remove our sins according to His grace

God accepted the death of One who is just dying on behalf of the unjust to ransom them from their sins. This single act of righteousness is what the Apostle Paul refers to in Rom 5:18 when he stated, "so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." Jesus our Lord was presented by God "as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith." (Rom 3:25) Propitiation is appeasing-satisfying God. It is the means by which our deserved wrath is averted because God is satisfied with the offering for our sins, the death of His own Son is that offering.

Brother, you have not provided one doctrinal statement from the NT authors of the bible to substantiate that God poured wrath out upon His Son. The reason why is that it is simply not there. The fact is, God is merciful to the repentant and has provided a solution that averts His wrath for sin, the Lord Jesus Christ who died for our sins and arose for our life; to be the all perfect sacrifice that willingly, lovingly, and obediently suffered and died for us, ransoming us from the law of sin and death and became the mediator of God's new covenant...this is a display of God's love, wisdom, and power.

The Law reveals the righteousness of God and the mercy of God. The righteousness of God is wrathful towards the sinner, and yet the mercy of God is revealed by the priesthood and sacrificial system that makes atonement for sin.

"We have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God" "who He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption."

God Bless

 

[civic]

Hello Brother, I'm glad to be here. Thank you.

"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear (remove-purify) the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (Heb 9:24-28)

We read in the bible that God is Holy and will not condone sin, and yet He has mercy on the repentant and justifies the unjust. God's mercy is what saves us from His wrath. God is still true to His character from the OT to the NT. He had mercy on the repentant sinner then and He does now. Its that now in this age of the NT, God sent His Son to be a sin offering for us, putting an end to sin, having brought in everlasting righteousness, and has made reconciliation for our iniquities.

God provided a way of saving man from condemnation on the day of judgement. And that provision is His Son giving up His sinless life as a sin offering, dying for our sins having none of His own, to remove the guilt of our sin, so that on judgement day those who believe in Him are "Passover" (Exo 12:11-14), having accepted the sinless life of the Lord dying for their sins (Heb 9:24-28).

In our modern day vernacular it is similar to a plea bargain. We plead guilty as charged in the indictment against us as stated in Rom 3:10-18.

​

"as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

​

​

And upon pleading guilty as charged, we accept the bargain of God's mercy that God delivered to humanity through His Son, John 3:16-17.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."​

The Law brings wrath on the lawbreaker at judgement, but the mercy of God averts, not diverts that wrath by accepting a sinless life to die for the sins of the sinful (sin offering), which is instituted and acceptable by God for the removal of sins...This is revealed to us in the Law of Moses, and is manifested to us in the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, God's Lamb that He gave to remove our sins according to His grace

God accepted the death of One who is just dying on behalf of the unjust to ransom them from their sins. This single act of righteousness is what the Apostle Paul refers to in Rom 5:18 when he stated, "so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." Jesus our Lord was presented by God "as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith." (Rom 3:25) Propitiation is appeasing-satisfying God. It is the means by which our deserved wrath is averted because God is satisfied with the offering for our sins, the death of His own Son is that offering.

Brother, you have not provided one doctrinal statement from the NT authors of the bible to substantiate that God poured wrath out upon His Son. The reason why is that it is simply not there. The fact is, God is merciful to the repentant and has provided a solution that averts His wrath for sin, the Lord Jesus Christ who died for our sins and arose for our life; to be the all perfect sacrifice that willingly, lovingly, and obediently suffered and died for us, ransoming us from the law of sin and death and became the mediator of God's new covenant...this is a display of God's love, wisdom, and power.

The Law reveals the righteousness of God and the mercy of God. The righteousness of God is wrathful towards the sinner, and yet the mercy of God is revealed by the priesthood and sacrificial system that makes atonement for sin.

"We have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God" "who He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption."

God Bless

Amen brother well said !

 

[praise_yeshua]

We know, even if the lunch comes to us free, someone, somewhere paid for it.

And it is interesting just how much Scripture uses "payment" language in both the OT and the NT, this is very significant.

and it is interesting just how much Scripture uses the "Grace" language in the both the OT and the NT. This is very significant.

But what is essentially being said here is this:

Jesus can pay for us, without really paying.


That's the argument, logically, from the anti-PSA crowd.

No. It is the Ransom Theory......

 

[Diserner]

No. It is the Ransom Theory......

Even with a "Ransom" theory someone pays.

Think harder.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Even with a "Ransom" theory someone pays.

Think harder.

You're the one that didn't make any distincts. Think harder. You're mixing and conflating.

Who received the payment? You're the one insisting on payment. Not me. I have repeatedly said that the body of Christ and in the Incarnation is relative to the Priestly Work of Jesus Christ. Empathy.

 

[Diserner]

You're the one insisting on payment. Not me.

Okay, so you reject the Ransom Theory?

That didn't seem clear.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Okay, so you reject the Ransom Theory?

That didn't seem clear.

Not entirely. We can discuss. You started this off with a "Payment" requirement.

 

[Diserner]

Not entirely. We can discuss. You started this off with a "Payment" requirement.

If you accept Ransom it logically entails payment.

Which was my whole point that you said I'm "mixing and confusing" when I wasn't.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you accept Ransom it logically entails payment.

Which was my whole point that you said I'm "mixing and confusing" when I wasn't.

Mixing and conflating theories is what I was talking about.

I don't accept all the details of the Ransom theory. I don't believe the devil was paid a ransom nor do I necessarily believe that Christ had to pay for the wages of sin.

 

[Diserner]

I don't believe the devil was paid a ransom

Agreed.

nor do I necessarily believe that Christ had to pay for the wages of sin.

Strongly disagree—God's worth must be maintained.

And I know you think judging sin is valuing sin, but that does not logically follow.

If we were to simply value sin, then Christ himself must exalt sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Agreed.

Got it.

Strongly disagree—God's worth must be maintained.

God's worth is never in question. He doesn't have to prove His value to us nor anyone else.

And I know you think judging sin is valuing sin, but that does not logically follow.

I don't think you completely understand why I say the things I say relative to this. I believe man finds value in such equations. Not God. Sin has no innate/intrinsic value.

If we were to simply value sin, then Christ himself must exalt sin.

Can you elaborate. I'm not following. Probably my problem...

I have a ton on my mind at the moment. Thanks

 

[Diserner]

I have a ton on my mind at the moment. Thanks

No problem.

Saying that judging sin is valuing sin is like the argument in Romans "but if my lie abounds to God's glory why am I judged a sinner."

It's what they call a "non sequitur."

It's like if someone says, "The sun is yellow, therefore cats are evil."

And I say, but it doesn't follow, there's not a logical connection?

Then they say, "But the sun is yellow, isn't it? Are you going to deny the sun is yellow?"

You can't make any progress in that situation.

 

[Soyeong]

"For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression." (Rom 4:15)

"...you are not under law but under grace." (Rom 6:14)

(Rom 3:19-26, NLT) Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. (20) For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. (21) But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. (22) We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. (23) For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. (24) Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. (25) For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, (26) for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

The Law reveals we are guilty of sin, and it also reveals how God ultimately deals with our sin; the sacrificial death of a spotless-unblemished lamb that dies for the sins of the people. In the Law we can see both the righteousness of God that we fall short, and the grace of God that removes our shortcoming. What we do not see is any wrath poured out upon the sacrifices. What we see is a quick death of an unblemished animal that is holy to the Lord and dies for one purpose, for the sins of the people. The people placed their hands upon the animal and confessed their sins. This was not imputation of sin, but a declaration of their own sins and the realization the spotless-guiltless animal was dying on their behalf so they could live. And so it is with our declaration of belief in Jesus Christ. We are water baptized to associate ourselves with His death for us on a cross, where He willingly took the judgement of death for our sins. We realize that our sinless Lord died for sins so we can live a newness of life, and we publicly declare that in water baptism (Rom 6:3-7).

Jesus Christ is God's Lamb that He sent into this world to exchange His sinless-spotless, unblemished human life for our freedom from sin and death (Heb 9:15). His death was purposed. It was for putting an end to sin, bringing in everlasting righteousness, and making reconciliation for our iniquity (ref, Dan 9:24). God initiated His new covenant with the blood of His own Son, "And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."(Mat 26:27-28), and with His death the old covenant that brings wrath upon us is obsoleted, "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete." (Heb 8:13) And in speaking of the new covenant, "I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” (Heb 8:10-12)

The central theme of the Lord's death was for purifying us of sin. It was not about God pouring wrath out upon Him. There is no record of any NT author in the bible expressing God pouring wrath upon His Son. What we do read from the Apostle Paul is quite the opposite. Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, "But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation; namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2Co 5:18-19). When did reconciliation-atonement happen? It happened when our Lord died on the cross for our sins. God was in Him when that happened. What is the ministry that Paul stated God gave him to minister? "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses".

Our Lord Himself made this statement to the disciples the night of His arrest, "Behold, the time is coming, yes, and has now come, that you will be scattered, everyone to his own place, and you will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me." (Joh 16:32) And we know when our Lord gave up His life unto death He said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" (Luke 23:46)

The death of the Lord was a mission of love and mercy. God was in His Son and never left Him alone; this is what we read in the bible. God was not pouring wrath upon His Son, as I once thought too. Instead, "God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ: (2 Cor 5:21, NLT)

It is true "the Law brings wrath", but it is also true "grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ." (Rom 5:17)

Our Lord died as a ransom to set us free from sin, and He arose to give us eternal life. His death was explicitly for the removal-purification of our sins and the enactment of the new covenant; and all of this by God's loving and merciful grace. Our Lord Jesus Christ bought us out of the first contract and put us under a new better one...one that lasts forever! (Heb 8 and 9)

God Bless

In Romans 6:14, it describes the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Furthermore, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so we are still under it. In addition, in Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace.

The goal of the Law of God is not to point out our shortcomings, but to teach us how to know God through leading us to do what is holy, righteous, and good. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). In Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts.