Wrath or Justification?

Joe

Active member
I'm curious about what you think regarding God the Father's disposition when His own Son was on the cross.

Do you think God was angry at Jesus our Lord when He was hanging on the cross, thinking of Him as a sinner, or as sin as some think, smiting and afflicting Him?

Or was God His Father pleased with Him and satisfied that His Son humbled Himself to come into our form and humbled Himself even further to die for our sins on a cross out of love for Him and his brothers? (ref, Matt 17:5, Php 2:3-8, John 14:31, John 15:13)

"Then he (Jesus) said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” (Mat 26:38-39)

The Apostle Paul stated, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:18)

It was God's will to crush His Son because He loved us and also because He is just. God would have never sent Him into our form to crush Him for our sins if He did not love us. Being just does not always mean you are wrathful when doing the right thing, and in this case doing the right thing was for a righteous man to willingly suffer and die for the sins of His brothers.

The love and grace of God is revealed to us in the Law by the spotless sin offering dying for the sins of the people. And this is how God justified the ungodly; by the sacrificial death of His own Son for our sins. No anger, wrath, or retribution poured out, but merciful justice satisfied by Christ "who is the image of the invisible God" who "for all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him."

God Bless
 
I think God treated Jesus on that Cross exactly—and I mean exactly—

as he was going to treat me.
you are sinful and He was God( sinless ), not even close- no cigar.

Jesus was never the enemy of God-all men are born enemies of God under sins curse separated from God. You were Gods enemy. Jesus is His beloved Son in whom He is well pleased.

Sins curse is death and cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree. He suffered sins curse by His brutal death and torture from the hands of the Jews and Romans.
 
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Isaiah 53 [NASB] (The strongest case for PSA)
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of dry ground;
He has no [stately] form or majesty
That we would look at Him,
Nor an appearance that we would take pleasure in Him.
3 He was despised and abandoned by men,
A man of great pain and familiar with sickness;
And like one from whom [people] hide their faces,
He was despised, and we had no regard for Him.
4 However, [it was] our sicknesses [that] He Himself bore,
And our pains [that] He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being [was laid] upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off from the land of the living
For the wrongdoing of my people, to whom the blow [was due?]
9 And His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD desired To crush Him, causing [Him] grief;
If He renders Himself [as] a guilt offering,
He will see [His] offspring,
He will prolong [His] days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see [it and] be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many,
For He will bear their wrongdoings.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the plunder with the strong,
Because He poured out His life unto death,
And was counted with wrongdoers;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the wrongdoers.
 
Isaiah 53 [NASB] (The strongest case for PSA)
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of dry ground;
He has no [stately] form or majesty
That we would look at Him,
Nor an appearance that we would take pleasure in Him.
3 He was despised and abandoned by men,
A man of great pain and familiar with sickness;
And like one from whom [people] hide their faces,
He was despised, and we had no regard for Him.
4 However, [it was] our sicknesses [that] He Himself bore,
And our pains [that] He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being [was laid] upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But thehas caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off from the land of the living
For the wrongdoing of my people, to whom the blow [was due?]
9 And His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD desired To crush Him, causing [Him] grief;
If He renders Himself [as] a guilt offering,
He will see [His] offspring,
He will prolong [His] days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see [it and] be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many,
For He will bear their wrongdoings.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the plunder with the strong,
Because He poured out His life unto death,
And was counted with wrongdoers;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the wrongdoers.
Hello brother,

And no where does it state or imply in Isaiah 53 that God angerly acted against "the arm of the LORD" (Jesus our Lord).

There is no doubt that it was God's will to crush Him. But what was the reason for crushing Him? Our Lord tells us why in the verses you quoted, in the written Gospels, and His Apostles tell us why in their writings. And what you will not find written is that God was angered-wrathful at His Son.

God does not exhaust wrathful anger for sin upon an innocent one. He has let us know that is an abomination to condemn the righteous. "He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD."

And God does not have to be angry when acting mercifully and just.

There was no anger towards our Lord at anytime. He even told the disciples "the time is coming, yes, and has now come, that you will be scattered, everyone to his own place, and you will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me".

The Apostle Paul wrote "that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses".

When did the reconciliation-atonement happen that Paul wrote about? When our Lord was hanging on the cross, a place of shame, and giving His life up unto death to save us from our sins. God was in Him, and He never left Him as Jesus said. Jesus even committed His spirit into His hands.

That is the truth straight from the bible. We have a merciful and just God, who Himself justifies the unjust by His mercy through a sin offering, and not by His wrath. You will never read one verse in the bible that God saves us by His wrath. He saves us by His mercy through the offering of His Son for our sins. And if He saves us by His mercy, then sending His Son to die on a cross was a mission of mercy not wrath. You cannot quote one sentence from the bible that God exhausted wrath upon His innocent Son, not one. This is not small. God has revealed it all to us. And wrath was never revealed in the OT sacrifices, nor in the sacrifice His Son gave for us.

I am passionate about this subject. I too once thought God poured wrath upon our Lord, but that changed a year ago when He revealed to me what was right under my nose; He suffered and died on a mission of mercy to free us from sin, bringing us into an everlasting right standing with God, and giving us a new life eternally joined with God that starts now (ref, Dan 9:24). And none of it had to do with wrath. It all has to do with being just and merciful towards us and "to destroy the works of the devil".

God Bless
 
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I think God treated Jesus on that Cross exactly—and I mean exactly—

as he was going to treat me
Do you think God is with a condemned sinner on a cross?
Do you think God is in a condemned sinner on a cross?
Do you think a condemned sinner gives up-entrusts his spirit to God upon death?

No, a condemned sinner does not entrust his spirit to God, nor does God act the way towards a condemned sinner as He did His innocent Son.

A condemned sinner dying on a cross deserves God's anger.

Our Lord dying on a cross to save you doesn't deserve God's anger but His love and honor for obeying His will.

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:18-19)

You are saved by God's mercy.
You are not saved by God's wrath.

God Bless
 
Do you think God is with a condemned sinner on a cross?
Do you think God is in a condemned sinner on a cross?
Do you think a condemned sinner gives up-entrusts his spirit to God upon death?

No, a condemned sinner does not entrust his spirit to God, nor does God act the way towards a condemned sinner as He did His innocent Son.

A condemned sinner dying on a cross deserves God's anger.

Our Lord dying on a cross to save you doesn't deserve God's anger but His love and honor for obeying His will.

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:18-19)

You are saved by God's mercy.
You are not saved by God's wrath.

God Bless
Amen !
 
And no where does it state or imply in Isaiah 53 that God angrily acted against "the arm of the LORD" (Jesus our Lord).
We must be careful to see the scripture as those we disagree with see it if we are to UNDERSTAND what they understand. We may then disagree and discuss it from a position of understanding rather than ignorance of THEIR point of view.

Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being [was laid] upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
  1. Clearly, one can read that and claim God acted against "'the arm of the LORD' (Jesus our Lord)." ... so "angrily" becomes the only question.
  2. What is God's "attitude" towards "our offenses" and "our wrongdoings"? Anger?
  3. The PUNISHMENT was laid upon Him ... one must admit that "wrath" has at least entered the room.
  4. Other versions, like KJV word Isaiah 53:4 slightly different: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." ... where "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted" come closer to implying wrath. (You stated that nothing in Isaiah even implied wrath).
Now I am personally unconvinced that WRATH is what the Father felt towards the Son or what the Son suffered on the cross (except the wrath of evil men). However, it is an injustice to pretend that there is nothing in Scripture to even SUGGEST PSA (wrath) and the majority that currently accept that belief as true have invented it out of nothing.

In the narrowest sense, PSA is true ...
  • Penal = "punishment" = Jesus was punished "The punishment for our well-being [was laid] upon Him,"
  • Substitutionary = "substitution", to take the place of another = Jesus did take our place "But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings;"
  • Atonement = "reparation for a wrong or injury" = Jesus did repair the damage caused by our sin, He restored our relation to the Father "As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see [it and] be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, For He will bear their wrongdoings."
... it is only the WRATH of the Father against the Son that is in question. A small point, but a big deal.
 
I think God treated Jesus on that Cross exactly—and I mean exactly—

as he was going to treat me.
... maybe not EXACTLY: God is generally not known for His crucifixion of sinners.
However, I think your statement is more true than not.
Jesus got what we deserve!
We get what Jesus deserved!

Hardly "fair", but definitely MERCIFUL and LOVING and for the GLORY OF GOD.
 
We must be careful to see the scripture as those we disagree with see it if we are to UNDERSTAND what they understand. We may then disagree and discuss it from a position of understanding rather than ignorance of THEIR point of view.


  1. Clearly, one can read that and claim God acted against "'the arm of the LORD' (Jesus our Lord)." ... so "angrily" becomes the only question.
  2. What is God's "attitude" towards "our offenses" and "our wrongdoings"? Anger?
  3. The PUNISHMENT was laid upon Him ... one must admit that "wrath" has at least entered the room.
  4. Other versions, like KJV word Isaiah 53:4 slightly different: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." ... where "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted" come closer to implying wrath. (You stated that nothing in Isaiah even implied wrath).
Now I am personally unconvinced that WRATH is what the Father felt towards the Son or what the Son suffered on the cross (except the wrath of evil men). However, it is an injustice to pretend that there is nothing in Scripture to even SUGGEST PSA (wrath) and the majority that currently accept that belief as true have invented it out of nothing.

In the narrowest sense, PSA is true ...
  • Penal = "punishment" = Jesus was punished "The punishment for our well-being [was laid] upon Him,"
  • Substitutionary = "substitution", to take the place of another = Jesus did take our place "But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings;"
  • Atonement = "reparation for a wrong or injury" = Jesus did repair the damage caused by our sin, He restored our relation to the Father "As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see [it and] be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, For He will bear their wrongdoings."
... it is only the WRATH of the Father against the Son that is in question. A small point, but a big deal.
He absolutely experienced wrath, anger, retribution from the Roman and Jewish leaders. But it did not come from the Father. He was never angry with the Son. And Isaiah 53 says: WE CONSIDERED Him smitten by God, not God smote Him. There is a big difference. Much like Job and his friends considered his suffering came from God, but they were wrong it was from the devil.
 
He absolutely experienced wrath, anger, retribution from the Roman and Jewish leaders. But it did not come from the Father. He was never angry with the Son. And Isaiah 53 says: WE CONSIDERED Him smitten by God, not God smote Him. There is a big difference. Much like Job and his friends considered his suffering came from God, but they were wrong it was from the devil.
That's how I read it, too.
However, I can see how the suffering was ordained by God and that goes "toes to the line" for the argument for "wrath".
I can see where OTHERS come to their conclusions from.

[Now if they would attempt to view the "OTHER SIDE", they might see the PROBLEMS with WRATH as well as and be more open to just looking at other possible explanations. I like Christus Victor because it is the "lowest common denominator" explanation: no one can deny that Christ died to accomplish what scripture says His death accomplished!]
 
That's how I read it, too.
However, I can see how the suffering was ordained by God and that goes "toes to the line" for the argument for "wrath".
I can see where OTHERS come to their conclusions from.

[Now if they would attempt to view the "OTHER SIDE", they might see the PROBLEMS with WRATH as well as and be more open to just looking at other possible explanations. I like Christus Victor because it is the "lowest common denominator" explanation: no one can deny that Christ died to accomplish what scripture says His death accomplished!]
I’m heading out the door for work but would love to continue our discussion :)
 
That's how I read it, too.
However, I can see how the suffering was ordained by God and that goes "toes to the line" for the argument for "wrath".
I can see where OTHERS come to their conclusions from.
So are you therefore concluding that perhaps people just need to lighten up on this subject and recognize that everyone is really basically believing in the work of substitution that Jesus came to accomplish and that parsing words too intensely it could cause unnecessary division and hurt the body of Christ?

[Now if they would attempt to view the "OTHER SIDE", they might see the PROBLEMS with WRATH as well as and be more open to just looking at other possible explanations. I like Christus Victor because it is the "lowest common denominator" explanation: no one can deny that Christ died to accomplish what scripture says His death accomplished!]
So it does seem the writer from whom you quoted locked into a way of thinking, look don't get to complex with this. It seems he wanted to see a bridge of understanding between both groups holding whatever position that is you're all believing what his death accomplished and doing so you'll all reap the benefits. It seems he's asking isn't that the main thing?
 
So are you therefore concluding that perhaps people just need to lighten up on this subject and recognize that everyone is really basically believing in the work of substitution that Jesus came to accomplish and that parsing words too intensely it could cause unnecessary division and hurt the body of Christ?


So it does seem the writer from whom you quoted locked into a way of thinking, look don't get to complex with this. It seems he wanted to see a bridge of understanding between both groups holding whatever position that is you're all believing what his death accomplished and doing so you'll all reap the benefits. It seems he's asking isn't that the main thing?
Amen . The anger/wrath from Father to Son is my main objection with PSA.
 
So are you therefore concluding that perhaps people just need to lighten up on this subject and recognize that everyone is really basically believing in the work of substitution that Jesus came to accomplish and that parsing words too intensely it could cause unnecessary division and hurt the body of Christ?


So it does seem the writer from whom you quoted locked into a way of thinking, look don't get to complex with this. It seems he wanted to see a bridge of understanding between both groups holding whatever position that is you're all believing what his death accomplished and doing so you'll all reap the benefits. It seems he's asking isn't that the main thing?
God has granted me the special blessing of leaning towards "being a jerk". It is the sin that so easily entangles, so I must be constantly vigilant against it. [The quote in my signature is a reminder for ME, not a message for others.] ;)

The one benefit is that like AA, one drunk can always spot another drunk. I can see in others the same propensity to DIG IN AND MAN THE RAMPARTS! You may be familiar with the quote "Unity in essentials, Liberty in non-essentials, Love in all things" [it is the motto of the Moravian Church - Go Huss!] We [people] have a tendency to conflate "non-essentials" for "essentials" and throw "Love" out the window in defense of TRUTH!!!!!!

MOST positions are closer than MOST people are willing to admit. We really need to rediscover CIVILITY in our discourse to learn to honestly converse with one another. The problem was best described by James:

So also the tongue is a small part [of the body,] and [yet] it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, the [very] world of unrighteousness; the tongue is set among our body's parts as that which defiles the whole body and sets on fire the course of [our] life, and is set on fire by hell. For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. But no one [among] mankind can tame the tongue; [it is] a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless [our] Lord and Father, and with it we curse people, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come [both] blessing and cursing. My brothers [and sisters,] these things should not be this way. Does a spring send out from the same opening [both] fresh and bitter [water?] Can a fig tree, my brothers [and sisters,] bear olives, or a vine [bear] figs? Nor [can] salt water produce fresh. - James 3:5-12 [NASB]​
... who, indeed, can tame the tongue! :cool:
 
God has granted me the special blessing of leaning towards "being a jerk". It is the sin that so easily entangles, so I must be constantly vigilant against it. [The quote in my signature is a reminder for ME, not a message for others.] ;)

The one benefit is that like AA, one drunk can always spot another drunk. I can see in others the same propensity to DIG IN AND MAN THE RAMPARTS! You may be familiar with the quote "Unity in essentials, Liberty in non-essentials, Love in all things" [it is the motto of the Moravian Church - Go Huss!] We [people] have a tendency to conflate "non-essentials" for "essentials" and throw "Love" out the window in defense of TRUTH!!!!!!

MOST positions are closer than MOST people are willing to admit. We really need to rediscover CIVILITY in our discourse to learn to honestly converse with one another. The problem was best described by James:

So also the tongue is a small part [of the body,] and [yet] it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, the [very] world of unrighteousness; the tongue is set among our body's parts as that which defiles the whole body and sets on fire the course of [our] life, and is set on fire by hell. For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. But no one [among] mankind can tame the tongue; [it is] a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless [our] Lord and Father, and with it we curse people, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come [both] blessing and cursing. My brothers [and sisters,] these things should not be this way. Does a spring send out from the same opening [both] fresh and bitter [water?] Can a fig tree, my brothers [and sisters,] bear olives, or a vine [bear] figs? Nor [can] salt water produce fresh. - James 3:5-12 [NASB]​
... who, indeed, can tame the tongue! :cool:
Well said and I know I was a troll and instigator back on my days on CARM , it fueled that type of environment. That’s no longer my cup of tea and don’t really want or desire that kind of interaction here. I know you and I have some major differences now since I’m not a Calvinist but we are having some great discussions imho.
 
Well said and I know I was a troll and instigator back on my days on CARM , it fueled that type of environment. That’s no longer my cup of tea and don’t really want or desire that kind of interaction here. I know you and I have some major differences now since I’m not a Calvinist but we are having some great discussions imho.
Learning to walk away from topics has helped me. If it doesn't meet Philippians 4:8, then I need to stop.
 
God has granted me the special blessing of leaning towards "being a jerk". It is the sin that so easily entangles, so I must be constantly vigilant against it. [The quote in my signature is a reminder for ME, not a message for others.] ;)
I think it's safe to say we're all in that same boat too from time to time.
The one benefit is that like AA, one drunk can always spot another drunk. I can see in others the same propensity to DIG IN AND MAN THE RAMPARTS!
And people do this with such a passion. The question to always ask is, is God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit always as upset as we might be of one maybe not getting totally right a topic ? I think some times and many times they're not. I think at times they might be saying in the Spirit, "Calm down, take a deep breath and chill!" Most certainly it can be good to respond and react to some things but an over reaction can be worse than the error a person is in. In other words if one must respond keep things properly measured the right way.
You may be familiar with the quote "Unity in essentials, Liberty in non-essentials, Love in all things"
A very good statement.
 
I'm curious about what you think regarding God the Father's disposition when His own Son was on the cross.

Do you think God was angry at Jesus our Lord when He was hanging on the cross, thinking of Him as a sinner, or as sin as some think, smiting and afflicting Him?
no.
Or was God His Father pleased with Him and satisfied that His Son humbled Himself to come into our form and humbled Himself even further to die for our sins on a cross out of love for Him and his brothers? (ref, Matt 17:5, Php 2:3-8, John 14:31, John 15:13)

he was hurt for christ and what those monsters did to him and for us too.
"Then he (Jesus) said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” (Mat 26:38-39)
no one enjoys being tortured and in pain.
The Apostle Paul stated, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:18)

It was God's will to crush His Son because He loved us and also because He is just.

no.

God would have never sent Him into our form to crush Him for our sins if He did not love us.

Gid did not crush Christ. untrue.
Being just does not always mean you are wrathful when doing the right thing, and in this case doing the right thing was for a righteous man to willingly suffer and die for the sins of His brothers.
?

The love and grace of God is revealed to us in the Law by the spotless sin offering dying for the sins of the people.

christ volunteered. God did not sacrifice him.

And this is how God justified the ungodly; by the sacrificial death of His own Son for our sins.

no.

No anger, wrath, or retribution poured out, but merciful justice satisfied by Christ "who is the image of the invisible God" who "for all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him."

God Bless

the murdering torturers are of the satanic realm.
 
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