Justice "served" in the Atonement?

[Studyman]

Brother, I appreciate your response, but Scripture gives a very clear timeline regarding when Christ began His high priestly ministry-and it is after His resurrection and ascension, not during His earthly life.

Hebrews 8:4 says plainly:

“Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest…”
This is a second-class conditional in Greek (contrary to fact): If He were on earth—but He’s not—He would not be a priest.

Forgiving sins (as He did on earth) is a messianic and divine prerogative (cf. Mark 2:10), but priesthood-officiating before God on behalf of men-required entering the heavenly sanctuary (Hebrews 9:11–12), with His own blood, after His resurrection, once for all.

Hebrews 5:9–10 is also decisive:

“And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation… called of God an high priest after the order of Melchizedek.”
The “being made perfect” (τελειωθεὶς) is aorist passive—referring to completion of suffering, resurrection, and exaltation.

So yes, He is indeed High Priest forever—but He became such only after fulfilling all righteousness, conquering death, and ascending to the right hand of God (Hebrews 4:14; Psalm 110:4).

Grace and peace.

J.

That makes sense. I always wondered why God, through the mouth of Moses, called Jesus a Prophet, "Like unto Moses". I always considered Jesus my High Priest and received my understanding of God though His Sayings when His Earthy Ministry began.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

But your understanding is that Jesus was in Training to be God's High Priest forever, while HE walked the earth. I believed that His Ministry began after a true Levite Priest anointed Him, and His Priesthood began when His Ministry began.

But you have certainly made a good case that this might be wrong.

Thanks for the lesson

 

[praise_yeshua]

Justice is in the eyes of the beholder. We deemed Him smitten of God and afflicted. It is our judgement that Christ submitted to. Our determination of His Character and our sense of justice. Not God's. Our sense of justice. Eye for an eye. Tooth for a tooth. Our vengeance upon all things fleeting from our lives.

How do you win the heart of your enemies? You accept their judgement as your own. You give your back to their beatings. You give your ears to their cruel mockings. You accept from them what they would not do for you.

 

[Dizerner]

"Our justice. Our justice. Our judgment. Our determination. Christ submitted to us."

Literal idolatry.

God alone is Judge.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, there are Prophesies which are yet to be fulfilled. Like His return. The Prophesy about His murder, being hung on a tree, being Faithful to His Father until death, etc., was finished on the cross. But the Prophesy of His Glorious return, this time not as a lamb to the slaughter, has yet to be fulfilled. If HE doesn't return, that man's Faith is in vain.



Passover is the Beginning of God's Salvation, not the end. I know the promoters of this world's religious system preaches that Passover was the End of God's Salvation. But according to what is actually written in Scriptures, it is the Beginning of God's Salvation, followed by Feast of Unleavened Bread. Like Jesus saying, "Your sins are forgiven, no go and son no more".




Jesus is God's High Priest, "After the Order of Melchizedek", advocating between me and His Father and my Father. At least the Jesus "of the bible" is. He is at His Father's House, preparing a place for me.

John 14: 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I hear Him, and I believe on the Father who sent Him.



Yes, Jesus did the first HIS Part. Now we wait, by patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory and honour and immortality, for His Glorious return, and the Reward HE said HE brings with Him. "To give to Every man according to His deeds".

Now "we put on" the New Man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Now we repent of our religious judgments and traditions and turn to God, and "Live By" the Words of God as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs.

Matt. 13: 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

2 Peter 3: 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

The promoter of this world's religious system "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", accuse those men who strive to honor the Christ with more than their lips, "Trying to earn Salvation". Jesus called it, "Striving to Enter the Narrow Path", and "building their house on the Rock". Paul called it "Yielding oneself to God and their bodies as instruments of Righteousness unto God".

The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

The payment of redemption was the cross..

The passover is a great example. The oldest son was saved and the people freed because an innocent animal was killed and his blood was put on the door posts.

Thats what Jesus did on the cross.

without the shedding of blood there can be no remission

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Our justice. Our justice. Our judgment. Our determination. Christ submitted to us."

Literal idolatry.

God alone is Judge.

How? Explain how this is idolatry?

Sure. God alone is Judge but you don't understand His judgement. You want God to be like you. He isn't.

Lets talk about you......Do you kill your enemies?

That is is what YOU expect from God. Have you noticed that Satan is still around????? Still causing problems....

 

[Dizerner]

How? Explain how this is idolatry?

It really should be self-evident—you are putting the Creator's purpose to serve and be judged by the creation, rather the other way around.

You want God to be like you. He isn't.

You have no basis for this accusation and slander, even if in my sin nature I cannot help but want God to be more like me, and serve the creature.

Lets talk about you......Do you kill your enemies?

Think about why you want to compare me to God. Do you want to bring God down to my level and say God should be like me?

That is is what YOU expect from God. Have you noticed that Satan is still around????? Still causing problems....

I hope for things from God, but I do not demand things from God, that is inappropriate.

 

[Studyman]

The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

When? Clearly there is still Sin in the world, Yes? Jesus Himself speaks about "many" Christians who will say to Him when HE returns, Lord, Lord, don't we preach in your name, but HE will tell them "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that "work iniquity". Clearly, according to Jesus Own Words, the sins of this world still exists when HE returns.

So it is true that I am patiently awaiting a New World wherein dwelleth Righteousness that Jesus will usher in upon His Prophesied Return.

But until then, Sin still exists in this world, and Sin still brings death, as Paul says. He doesn't want men to be ignorant of these truths.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with "many of them" God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust "after evil things", as they also lusted.

So "WHEN" does the Lamb of God take away the Sins of this world? Paul spoke these words years after Jesus was murdered and Ascended to His Father. He also said:

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There seems to be a large disconnect between what the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, in this world's religious system preach, and what is actually written in Scripturtes.

The payment of redemption was the cross.

What does that mean in your religion?

The passover is a great example. The oldest son was saved and the people freed because an innocent animal was killed and his blood was put on the door posts.

Thats what Jesus did on the cross.

without the shedding of blood there can be no remission

Yes, in the Blood is the life. That is why it was required to place the "Life" of the Lamb on the two door posts and lintel, which symbolize the Life of the Lamb of God in our mind and in our works. (Replacing the Old man who transgresses God's Commandments by their own religious traditions) This was followed by a 7-day Feast of Unleavened bread, which symbolized a life of the New Man we are to Put On, "Which after God is created in righteousness and true Holiness". A man who "denies himself" (his fleshy lusts and traditions), and "yields himself" instead, to God, and his body "as instruments of righteousness unto God".

This world's religious system promotes the popular religious philosophy that the death of the Lamb of God was the end of God's Salvation. They completely reject what was to follow for those who were forgiven. They call submitting to God in this way, "Trying to earn salvation".

The Jesus "of the Bible" saw this coming in the world God was going to place me in, and knew that "many" who called Jesus Lord, Lord, would be convinced by this world's religious system that they are all set, that they "Stand" and as Jeremiah prophesied, are convinced that, "No evil shall come upon them".

He warned of this religious influence by the "many" "who come in His Name", not to be deceived by them.

Paul explains this to those who are seeking God's Righteousness very well in 1 Cor. 10. This is a teaching that is ignored a lot by this world's religious system.

So Yes, without the Shedding of Life, there can be no remission of Sins. We shed our lives, and "Put on" the Life of Jesus that HE offered to save us.

It's more than a slogan or bumper sticker.

1 Cor. 10: 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[Dizerner]

What does that mean in your religion?

I know you didn't ask me, but the answer to this is of the utmost importance and decides our eternal destiny.

Unless we truly trust in Christ to bear the punishment our sins deserve on the Cross, there is literally no other way to heaven.

We will be cast out if that is not our one and only hope of righteousness.

 

[civic]

I know you didn't ask me, but the answer to this is of the utmost importance and decides our eternal destiny.

Unless we truly trust in Christ to bear the punishment our sins deserve on the Cross, there is literally no other way to heaven.

We will be cast out if that is not our one and only hope of righteousness.

He was punished by man, not God.

next fallacy

 

[Dizerner]

He was punished by man, not God.

next fallacy

False, and actual heresy.

Man is not the Judge of the Universe punishing sin.

The Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all, Christ suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust.

NEXT HERESY.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It really should be self-evident—you are putting the Creator's purpose to serve and be judged by the creation, rather the other way around.

So you believe God needs servants? I don't. You have a "needy" God that NEEDS YOU.

How is that for idolatry? You're the one with an idol.

You have no basis for this accusation and slander, even if in my sin nature I cannot help but want God to be more like me, and serve the creature.

Sure I do. Your words betray you. By your words you are justified and by your words you are condemned.

This isn't about you. Yet, you're making it about you. God doesn't need us. He owns us but he doesn't act like a man exercising ownership of property.

Think about why you want to compare me to God. Do you want to bring God down to my level and say God should be like me?

I compare everything to God. There is NONE like Him.

Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things that happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and no one is like me.

By comparing things to God, we understand the NEED for God.

I hope for things from God, but I do not demand things from God, that is inappropriate.

Even Job had this problem. You have fabricated this view of God that doesn't match who/what God is..... This view has become an idol to you. An idol wherein you believed God serving man because He in His love needs...... you. That is why you see sin for what it isn't. Sin has no value but you see it as costing Jesus Christ's so much of Himself. You're "back dooring" merit of your failures in the suffering of Jesus Christ. This isn't justice.

 

[synergy]

False, and actual heresy.

Man is not the Judge of the Universe punishing sin.

The Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all, Christ suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust.

NEXT HERESY.

Evil originates from man, not God.

Next Blasphemy...

 

[praise_yeshua]

He was punished by man, not God.

next fallacy

Exactly. Jesus said very clearly that they didn't know what they were doing to Him.

 

[Johann]

He was punished by man, not God.

next fallacy

Such a view is not borne out by the vivid portrayal of divine causation expressed through the Hiphil stem verbs in Isaiah 53.

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

False, and actual heresy.

Man is not the Judge of the Universe punishing sin.

The Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all, Christ suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust.

NEXT HERESY.

If God punished you for your sin, you wouldn't be alive right now. Same is true of all of us.

Everyone wants "justice" for some other person's sin. Not their own.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Such a view is not borne out by the vivid portrayal of divine causation expressed through the Hiphil stem verbs in Isaiah 53.

J.

Start a thread. I'd love to correct you on this.......

 

[praise_yeshua]

Such a view is not borne out by the vivid portrayal of divine causation expressed through the Hiphil stem verbs in Isaiah 53.

J.

Did Jesus ask God to forgive them because they didn't know what "THEY" were doing?

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Talk about a causal event.....

 

[praise_yeshua]

He was punished by man, not God.

next fallacy

I watched the "Passion of the Christ" again last night. I realized something that I didn't realize before.....

When Jesus spoke of the "greater sin" of the High Priest and the crowd in demanding the crucifixion of Christ in the name of "Justice". They were doing almost the exact same thing that PSA does.

They were injecting their sense of "justice" upon the marvelous work of Jesus Christ.

 

[Johann]

Did Jesus ask God to forgive them because they didn't know what "THEY" were doing?

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Talk about a causal event.....

While attention is given to the actions of they, the passage’s emphasis lies elsewhere-on what YHWH was effecting upon the He, as portrayed throughout the parashah.

J.

 

[civic]

God over and over again bypasses the law and shows mercy, grace, forgiveness, not retribution. This is the case with Israel over and over again and God listening to His prophets interceding on their behalf and not wiping them out. God did the same with David who under the law was a murderer- an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth- He under the law should of been stoned. But God declares the LOrd has put away your sin, you shall not die. God bypasses retribution/justice with David. And yet the law states parents shall not be put to death for their children and vice versa. Deuteronomy 24:16. Once again God bypasses the law and does as He pleases. God is not bound by the law. And the cross is not about retribution or justice or the law. Its all about Gods love, mercy, grace and forgiveness.