jeremiah1five
Active Member
I was fishing for a more elaborate response.
Judaism is very messy.....
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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jeremiah1five
Active Member
Be specific. What do I say that you think dishonors Christ?
Isn't He the Seed in a long line of heirs that was able to receive the promises of God the Father?
What Christ inherits is going to be given to Abraham and his seed, everyone who lived and died expecting fulfillment but instead did not 'see' the inheritance in their lifetimes.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
The fact you're not recognizing Christ as the sole heir of Abraham. I think I've made that clear by now. You're treating Christ as if He is your brother or descendent. You're making Christ subservient to previous heirs.
Lets just start here. I have much more to say.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mark 12:26–27.
Isaac is the firstborn in a long line of births to Abrham's family. From Isaac was born Esau and Jacob; from Jacob was born Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.
Joseph ends up in Egypt and becomes second in command after Pharaoh. Joseph has children with an Egyptian wife: Manasseh and Ephraim. These two would be the first of recorded births that are mixed-race. But so is Ishmael and from Ishmael many "nations" and "kings" were born and fulfilled God's promise to Abraham that he would have children as there are as many stars in the heaven, and as many sand particles as there are on the seashore. In other words Abraham's seed would be numerous from a Hebrew standpoint. Later, there will be Gentiles introduced into his family line and these will be the mixed-race Gentiles referred to in Scripture (NT.)
A remnant of Hebrews - mostly from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin - were allowed to return to Israel by Cyrus the Great. This remnant left Babylon in two parties. One was led by Nehemiah, the other by Ezra, while the majority of all Hebrews living remained in Babylon, Assyria, Samaria, and in Gentile lands in-between. These learned the ways of the "Goyim" and within about 29-35 generations that lived in Gentile lands assimilated into Greek culture. They lost their Hebrew heritage. But this was a work of God. He sent His people into Exile knowing what would happen to His people. But to Jesus these "Gentiles" were of Abraham's seed, they were heirs according to the promise as demonstrated by His interaction with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4.
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
John 4:9–12.
The "Gentiles" in the New Testament record can only be described as "mixed-race" Hebrews of Gentile descent. This is the only explanation when you consider that there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants. And if we are to say along with Jesus that He did not come to destroy (change) the Law of Moses, including the sacrificial system of atonement, then the temporary sacrificial atonement done under the Law through the centuries in which only the children of Israel were atoned years on Yom Kippur, an atonement that began in Egypt with the first Passover, then this would mean that for centuries only the Hebrew people under the Law of Moses (and Abraham - circumcision) were the only ones atoned in preparation for the sacrifice God would provide that would finally and eternally atone for the Hebrew people under the Law as was done through the centuries to and for the Hebrew people, then only the Hebrew people under the Law are atoned excluding non-Hebrew Gentiles.
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 9:4–5.
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25–27.
Jesus fulfilled the Law and died to atone for the sins of all Israel, including mixed-race Hebrews of Gentile descent.
Did God ever command a New Testament "bible"? How does letters without authority equal to Moses or the prophets who were commanded by God to "write these words in a 'book'" for the children of Israel? The "book/bible" (in Greek = biblios) where scrolls were gathered by Gentiles and put together absent command from God and now all of a sudden we have a NEW RELIGION and one that unmoors itself from Hebrew history and heritage. The true Church is Israel; the true Bride is Israel. the people of covenant with God are Israel. Gentiles at the time of Constantine were the ones to make a bible in order to equal the true Word of God to God's Chosen people Israel because they wanted to steal Israel's inheritance, their covenants, their prophets, and their Scripture in order to make their acts of replacement of Israel as the eye of God and give God a second eye and Gentiles in the middle. Today, we have a religion that calls itself Christianity that is unmoored from its Hebrew history and culture. It all began after Gentiles destroyed Israel and tore down their Temple and scattered the Jews throughout the Gentile world and passed laws that made it a crime for any Jew to return to Jerusalem let alone, Israel. God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. He made covenant with Abram the Hebrew from the family of Eber and included Abram's biological seed. The only way for a non-Hebrew Gentile to be heir of the Abrahamic promises is to be born of a Hebrew parent.
What sins did Abe commit that required a substitute sacrifice? What sins did Isaac commit that required a substitutional sacrifice to atone for his sins or Abraham's sins. What sins did they commit?
Jesus never "rejected" the rabbis. He rejected the religious leaders who exalted the rabbis' teachings above the Scripture.
A handful of Jews did that. While the majority of Jews living outside Israel in Gentile lands knew nothing of Jesus' appearance, nothing at all of Jesus' life and what He represented. These mixed-race Hebrews were the target people to whom God sent the eleven disciples, and Saul, and Barnabas, and others to herald the coming of the "Prophet like unto Moses" and to share the good news of His coming.
God is racist. He called Abram from the family of Eber, made a covenant with him and extended to his seed, and to separate Abram and his eventual seed from the rest of the Adamites He commanded them to circumcise the foreskin of their flesh. He commanded the Hebrews to not mingle with the Goy and learn their ways. Then He scatters them into Gentile lands to test them, not to deny them. God did this. And ever since Abraham the world knows only two races: Jew and Gentile. One group was with God; the other was not. One group had covenant and promises of blessings; the other did not. One had the sacrificial system of atonement for sin, the other did not. Who is it that God will consumed with the fire from heaven? Jews or Gentiles? (Rev. 20:7ff.)
This is the definition of "self-worth"
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deuteronomy 7:1–9.
Need I say, "Thus saith the LORD"?
Straight out of the mouth of God.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
So, Isaac was not an heir?
Yea or nay?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
A dying heir. Temporal. What did Isaac have that Ishmael didn't?
This is good conversation to have. We can go somewhere with this. I want you to understand that I'm not your enemy. I care for your condition.
There are choices to be made here. Choices that free and choices that bind.
I found it interesting that a Jewish scholar wrote From the Maccabees to the Mishnah.
He notes that Judaism has it origins in the return from the Babylonian exile. I think it was with Nehemiah prohibiting marriage with non-Jews. Some (AI discovered) comments seem to show Shaye as finding the focus on law practices and other principles after the Maccabean revolt as strengthening Judaism.
I suggest that this emphasis on works of the law began at the point and eventually became an expected fashion of obtaining righteousness with God -- of what we see in Rom 9:30-33.
It seems more likely that the form of Judaism at the time of Christ basically started after the Maccabean revolt. The original sense of the law was more of a background definition of how the people should live. It defined the priesthood practices and cultural details, like food and holidays. It defined the rough civil and criminal system without explicit defining of judges -- as one limitation. After all that was laid out, the main thing was that people live within that culture -- but even the times of adherence to that culture were rare.
I still use the term Judaism to express all sects and practices in the first-century, including the Messianic sect that became too separated by AD120.
Of course the Talmud and other writings formed from the Pharisaical practices and beliefs that underlie the rabbinic system, which Jesus exposed. I think part of the reason Jesus was distinct when speaking with authority is that the rabbinic practices was to find authority in the layers of rabbis' opinions rather than in individual rabbis. I suppose, however, some rabbis were treated as more authoritative than others.
I have not tried go find out how Jews today treat the distinction between David's era and the practices and beliefs of the modern era.
He notes that Judaism has it origins in the return from the Babylonian exile. I think it was with Nehemiah prohibiting marriage with non-Jews. Some (AI discovered) comments seem to show Shaye as finding the focus on law practices and other principles after the Maccabean revolt as strengthening Judaism.
I suggest that this emphasis on works of the law began at the point and eventually became an expected fashion of obtaining righteousness with God -- of what we see in Rom 9:30-33.
It seems more likely that the form of Judaism at the time of Christ basically started after the Maccabean revolt. The original sense of the law was more of a background definition of how the people should live. It defined the priesthood practices and cultural details, like food and holidays. It defined the rough civil and criminal system without explicit defining of judges -- as one limitation. After all that was laid out, the main thing was that people live within that culture -- but even the times of adherence to that culture were rare.
I still use the term Judaism to express all sects and practices in the first-century, including the Messianic sect that became too separated by AD120.
Of course the Talmud and other writings formed from the Pharisaical practices and beliefs that underlie the rabbinic system, which Jesus exposed. I think part of the reason Jesus was distinct when speaking with authority is that the rabbinic practices was to find authority in the layers of rabbis' opinions rather than in individual rabbis. I suppose, however, some rabbis were treated as more authoritative than others.
I have not tried go find out how Jews today treat the distinction between David's era and the practices and beliefs of the modern era.
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We also see in a cultural sense elements of honor-shame culture and the patron-client system. When leaders were trying to select their place at the table, this reflects those elements. This likely was inherent among the rabbis too. Vestiges of that culture may have been preserved by focusing on the donors being named and honored behind the building of synagogues and certain features within synagogues. Maybe there are deeper elements of that Roman culture that also remain today. By contrast Jesus noted not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing
Matt 6:3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
The idea of that verse just means the giving should not be for one's own glory.
I should add that I have not considered much as to the degree this could happen systematically among Christians today. However, it seems that the widespread adoption by Judaism of the Roman culture mentioned in the initial points is part of the concern in the first century.
Matt 6:3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
The idea of that verse just means the giving should not be for one's own glory.
I should add that I have not considered much as to the degree this could happen systematically among Christians today. However, it seems that the widespread adoption by Judaism of the Roman culture mentioned in the initial points is part of the concern in the first century.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Not even. Isaac possessed the Abraham Covenant promises. Ishmael didn't.
When Isaac died, he received eternal life as a promise and was "kept" with the other saints.
Everyone in covenant with God has life insurance. Everyone before covenant whose name is in the book of life of the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world is saved.
God saves merely on His promise to save. God always has His people somewhere on the planet. From Adam to Moses God's people are those people who have positive relationship with Him. This includes, Seth, Lamech, Enoch, Noah, and others. They are in the named in the book of life. Scripture..
dwight92070
Active Member
jeremiah1five said: Faith was not required in these two covenants. The covenant exists for the purpose of saving the Hebrew people and giving them eternal life. This was accomplished when God sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to die for this people. This covenant is not a reciprocal covenant. God created man and from this God chose to separate one family and save not only the head of the family (Abraham) but also his descendants/seed.
Here we see a twisted theology. We are told in Hebrews: "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."
Both the Abrahamic and the Mosaic covenants required faith. That would be the only way they could come to Him, by believing that He exists and believing that they would be rewarded for seeking Him.
The Abrahamic covenant existed not only for the salvation of the Hebrews but for "all the families of the earth". Genesis 12:3:
And I will bless those who bless you (which includes his seed, Christ, and all those in Christ), and the one who curses you I will curse. (also includes Christ, and all those in Christ).
"And in you (includes Christ and those in Christ) all the families of the earth will be blessed." Not just Abraham, not just the Jews, but ALL THE SEED of Abraham, Christ and ALL IN HIM.
EVERY covenant is reciprocal, by definition. There is no promise of eternal life and salvation from God to mankind that does not have conditions that man must meet.
Even when God first spoke to Abram, God told him to leave his country, his relatives, and his father's house and go to a land that God would show him. Hebrews tells us that that required obedience and faith for Abraham to do what God said. That was the condition.
Apparently you reject much of Paul's teachings, which encompasses all the teachings of Christ Himself and the entire New Testament- to your own destruction.
Here we see a twisted theology. We are told in Hebrews: "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."
Both the Abrahamic and the Mosaic covenants required faith. That would be the only way they could come to Him, by believing that He exists and believing that they would be rewarded for seeking Him.
The Abrahamic covenant existed not only for the salvation of the Hebrews but for "all the families of the earth". Genesis 12:3:
And I will bless those who bless you (which includes his seed, Christ, and all those in Christ), and the one who curses you I will curse. (also includes Christ, and all those in Christ).
"And in you (includes Christ and those in Christ) all the families of the earth will be blessed." Not just Abraham, not just the Jews, but ALL THE SEED of Abraham, Christ and ALL IN HIM.
EVERY covenant is reciprocal, by definition. There is no promise of eternal life and salvation from God to mankind that does not have conditions that man must meet.
Even when God first spoke to Abram, God told him to leave his country, his relatives, and his father's house and go to a land that God would show him. Hebrews tells us that that required obedience and faith for Abraham to do what God said. That was the condition.
Apparently you reject much of Paul's teachings, which encompasses all the teachings of Christ Himself and the entire New Testament- to your own destruction.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
What did Isaac get out of it? He died. Ishmael did too. So did everyone else. Think deeper....
Ishmael did too. Think earthly or is this covenant just about "eternal life"? You're the one dragging this back down to earth in all these conversations.
There is no promises without the death of the grantor of that covenant. The will has promises. It took the death of God Himself to establish the fulness of that covenant.
Abraham nor Isaac either one received the promises. They died passing on the message.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Have you even read the covenant as written by Moses in Genesis 12, 15, and 17? If you did you'd see there is no mention of faith being required of Abraham or his descendants. And when we get to the Mosaic Covenant the only requirement is obedience. Have you even read the Pentateuch?
Here are the promises God made to Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13.)
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:2–3.
Take note of: "In thee." God is referring to Abram's seed/descendants because "IN THEE" only Hebrews are his seed and later, mixed-race Hebrews, BUT NOT NON-HEBREW GENTILES for Gentiles do not come out of Abram's lions/seed. Non-Hebrew Gentiles called at the time Adamites are the seed of Ham and Japheth. Non-Hebrew Gentiles do not come out of Abram's loins. Two Hebrew parents cannot have non-Hebrew offspring.
More covenant promises from God to Abram:
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: Genesis 12:7.
And it should be noted that Abram DISOBEYED God and did not take his family as commanded by God. The ONLY person that is his family is Sarai, his wife, and the souls he got in Haran. Lot is his brother's son, NOT his immediate family. He also took with him his father.
Abram was in Ur when God told him to "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee." Genesis 12:1.
According to Stephen Abram STOPPED to live in Haran until his father died THEN he obeyed God to leave his country to a place God will show him.
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
Acts 7:2–4.
31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son’s son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram’s wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there. Genesis 11:30–31.
Abram did not OBEY God but took extended family, stopped in Haran UNTIL his father died, THEN he left to journey as God commanded him.
9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south. (EGYPT) Genesis 12:9.
10 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land. Genesis 12:10.
God promised further:
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Genesis 15:4–21.
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.
Genesis 17:1–27.
The Abraham Covenant is described above. I have underlined God's promises and NOWHERE DOES GOD REQUIRE FAITH FROM ABRAHAM OR HIS SEED.
Yet David says:
4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest,
And causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:
We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house,
Even of thy holy temple.
Psalms 65:4.
Saul wrote to the Hebrew people (Hebrews 11ff) and he is speaking/writing TO the HEBREW people. They are ALREADY in covenant and don't have to worry about faith. Dead men have no faith. It is Jesus' faith by which anyone who is in covenant with God is saved.
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16.
It is through covenant God saves the Hebrew people. And it is through Jesus' faith by which everyone in covenant is saved and everyone in the Abraham Covenant shall be saved. And faith in NOT required to be saved for it is Jesus' faith that is gifted to a covenant believer through which they are saved. Faith is a gift. Dead men have no faith which is why Jesus exercised His faith by which God honored and through which those in covenant are saved.
Read above. There is no faith required by God upon Abraham and his seed.
Here is the Scripture which you so conveniently cut off the most important part of the passage:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3.
"In thee" means his seed, his biological seed, whether they are fully Hebrew or mixed-race Hebrew the only way a non-Hebrew Gentiles can be saved in to have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry for God's promise extends to Abraham's DNA.
Besides circumcision God required nothing else, not even faith.
The Mosaic Covenant is the same. The only thing God required in this covenant is obedience. NOT faith.
As I said above Abraham was disobedient. Instead of going where God told him to he stayed in Haran and until his father died, THEN he went forth where God instructed him.
You need a refresher course in the covenants.
Tell me, in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is described the New Covenant. Tell me...are non-Hebrew Gentiles included in this covenant?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
God is God of the living, not the dead.
They all lived and died NOT RECEIVING the fulfillment of the promises.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Hebrews 11:39.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I asked you what Isaac is got out of it. Your answer is basically nothing. You witness that fact above.
Thusly, that promise wasn't about Isaac. That promises is of an Eternal nature. It only exists through Jesus Christ. In the flesh, all such things have an ending. You're way off in this. Way off. You have potential but you're losing your way in this racism you've embraced. It feeds your ego. Nothing more.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Future Glory
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Christ was of the seed of Tamar and Ruth. Even after the flesh, there was no absence of weak temporal things in the flesh. That's the very point of the Priestly work of the Incarnation. Wrapped in weakness from the very conception in the womb of Mary.
So lets talk about Ishmael. There 12 patriarchs and 12 princes among Ishmael. Did you pay attention to the promises God made to Abraham about Ishmael?
dwight92070
Active Member
Jeremiah1five said: Have you ever read the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34? If you did, you would see there is no mention of faith required here either.
So what? We know that faith was required for all three covenants.
Yes, I have read the Pentatuech. Have you?
Have you ever read Galatians 3:16 and 29? If you did, you would know that Abraham's true seed was Christ, and if anyone belongs to Christ, then they are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
There is no promise given to Abraham in Genesis 14:13.
If Abraham never had faith, then he NEVER pleased God because without faith it's impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6
"For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH; and that (salvation is) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; " Ephesians 2:8
ONLY by faith can anyone be saved from Abel to people today.
God's promise is only for those with Abraham's DNA? What a foolish, racist thing to say.
You have to ignore the entire New Covenant and much of the Old Covenant to come up with your twisted theology.
Yes, non-Hebrews do share in the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
"Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Ephesians 3:6
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise." Galatians 3:26, 28-29
"Remember that formerly you, the Gentiles ... were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, ... But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ... So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, ..." Ephesians 2:11,12,19
I know you don't like that, but too bad, it's not up to you.
So what? We know that faith was required for all three covenants.
Yes, I have read the Pentatuech. Have you?
Have you ever read Galatians 3:16 and 29? If you did, you would know that Abraham's true seed was Christ, and if anyone belongs to Christ, then they are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
There is no promise given to Abraham in Genesis 14:13.
If Abraham never had faith, then he NEVER pleased God because without faith it's impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6
"For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH; and that (salvation is) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; " Ephesians 2:8
ONLY by faith can anyone be saved from Abel to people today.
God's promise is only for those with Abraham's DNA? What a foolish, racist thing to say.
You have to ignore the entire New Covenant and much of the Old Covenant to come up with your twisted theology.
Yes, non-Hebrews do share in the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
"Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Ephesians 3:6
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise." Galatians 3:26, 28-29
"Remember that formerly you, the Gentiles ... were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, ... But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ... So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, ..." Ephesians 2:11,12,19
I know you don't like that, but too bad, it's not up to you.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Isaac received blessings as promised by God.
There you go. The only way a non-Hebrew Gentile can be an heir of the promise is to have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry.
Ishmael and his seed were blessed of God. They are among the "families of the earth" in Genesis 12:3. God said, "IN THEE" (Abraham) the families of the earth would be blessed. "IN THEE" refers to Abraham's seed.
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3.
That's the only interpretation.
