John Knox

[FreeInChrist]

Many of you may have heard of John Knox, and more may not have.

He was a Reformation leader and a close friend with John Calvin. Founder of the Church of Scotland and said founder of Presbyterianism.

I posted the following to a member who is well known here and I got the reply that

" Your post is silly. If they read it and understand it they do so by the power of the Spirit."

Fine... Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I started to wonder how many of you find the following difficult to understand, especially the first paragraph.

NO ONE HAS TO AGREE WITH THIS , JUST CAN YOU UNDERSTAND IT?

Free Will in Knox's Theology​

While Knox affirmed the sovereignty of God in predestination, he also acknowledged the existence of human will. He argued that although God's eternal counsel decrees the fate of individuals, humans still possess a free will that operates within God's sovereign plan. This means that while God predestines, individuals are still responsible for their choices.

Knox believed that true freedom is found in aligning one's will with God's. He suggested that humans are free to choose good or evil, but their ability to choose good is ultimately enabled by God's grace. Thus, Knox's view of free will does not contradict his belief in predestination; rather, it complements it by highlighting the necessity of divine grace in human decision-making.
John Knox, held views that emphasized the sovereignty of God while also acknowledging human responsibility. He believed that while God is all-powerful, humans possess the ability to choose between good and evil.

• Human Responsibility: Knox argued that individuals have the freedom to choose their actions. He maintained that God created humans with the capacity to make moral choices, which is essential for genuine faith and repentance.
• Divine Sovereignty: While affirming free will, Knox also emphasized that God's will ultimately governs all things. He believed that God's providence does not negate human choice but rather works through it.
• Predestination: Knox's views on predestination suggest that while God has a plan for salvation, individuals still have the opportunity to respond to God's call. He argued that God's mercy is available to all who genuinely seek it.

Knox's theology presents a balance between divine sovereignty and human free will, asserting that while God is in control, humans are still accountable for their choices. This perspective was significant in shaping Reformed thought during the Reformation.

He also was instrumental in creating the new ecclesiastical order and the Scots Confession of Faith, which defined its beliefs and practices.

 

[Apain]

When we talk about free will, we are usually concerned with the matter of salvation. Few are interested in whether we have the free will to choose salad or steak for our dinner tonight. Rather, we are troubled over who exactly is in control of our eternal destiny.

Although the effects of sin are devastating, God did not leave humans in that helpless state. God extended his grace to all humans to enable them to come to him. This measure of grace, called “prevenient grace,” allows human free will to accept God’s call. However, the will is also free to reject this call. Faith, then, as a gift of God, grants the power to believe. However, people must choose to exercise this faith in the act of belief. Until this faith is exercised, the Holy Spirit does not make a new heart. Faith, then, precedes the new birth.

Before God’s graceful intervention, humans are unable to believe. Once God’s grace, “prevenient grace,” arrives, people are enabled to believe or to reject. Humans are held accountable based on their free choice of accepting or rejecting God’s call.

 

[civic]

Only calvinism/ reformed theology denies free will which has its origins in Augustianism. He was the first person in the church history to deny free will.

 

[Scott]

What I could find on John Knox in 131 Christians Everyone Should Know , and in this case beware of.

John Knox was born around 1514, at Haddington, a small town south of Edinburgh. Around 1529 he entered the University of St. Andrews and went on to study theology. He was ordained in 1536, but became a notary, then a tutor to the sons of local lairds (lower ranking Scottish nobility).
Dramatic events were unfolding in Scotland during Knox’s youth. Many were angry with the Catholic church, which owned more than half the real estate and gathered an annual income of nearly 18 times that of the crown. Bishops and priests were often mere political appointments, and many never hid their immoral lives: the archbishop of St. Andrews, Cardinal Beaton, openly consorted with concubines and sired 10 children.

The constant sea traffic between Scotland and Europe allowed Lutheran literature to be smuggled into the country. Church authorities were alarmed by this “heresy” and tried to suppress it. Patrick Hamilton, an outspoken Protestant convert, was burned at the stake in 1528.

In the early 1540s, Knox came under the influence of converted reformers, and under the preaching of Thomas Guilliame, he joined them. Knox then became a bodyguard for the fiery Protestant preacher George Wishart, who was speaking throughout Scotland.

In 1546, however, Beaton had Wishart arrested, tried, strangled, and burned. In response, a party of 16 Protestant nobles stormed the castle, assassinated Beaton, and mutilated his body. The castle was immediately put to siege by a fleet of French ships (Catholic France was an ally to Scotland). Though Knox was not privy to the murder, he did approve of it, and during a break in the siege, he joined the besieged party in the castle.


During a Protestant service one Sunday, preacher John Rough spoke on the election of ministers, and publicly asked Knox to undertake the office of preacher. When the congregation confirmed the call, Knox was shaken and reduced to tears. He declined at first, but eventually submitted to what he felt was a divine call.
It was a short-lived ministry. In 1547, after St. Andrews Castle had again been put under siege, it finally capitulated. Some of the occupants were imprisoned. Others, like Knox, were sent to the galleys as slaves.

Traveling preacher
Nineteen months passed before he and others were released. Knox spent the next five years in England, and his reputation for preaching quickly blossomed. But when Catholic Mary Tudor took the throne, Knox was forced to flee to France.

He made his way to Geneva, where he met John Calvin. The French reformer described Knox as a “brother … laboring energetically for the faith.” Knox for his part, was so impressed with Calvin’s Geneva, he called it, “the most perfect school of Christ that was ever on earth since the days of the apostles.”
Knox traveled on to Frankfurt am Main, where he joined other Protestant refugees—and quickly became embroiled in controversy. The Protestants could not agree on an order of worship. Arguments became so heated that one group stormed out of a church one Sunday, refusing to worship in the same building as Knox.

Back in Scotland, Protestants were redoubling their efforts, and congregations were forming all over the country. A group that came to be called “The Lords of the Congregation” vowed to make Protestantism the religion of the land. In 1555, they invited Knox to return to Scotland to inspire the reforming task. Knox spent nine months preaching extensively and persuasively in Scotland before he was forced to return to Geneva.

Fiery blasts of the pen
Away from his homeland again, he published some of his most controversial tracts: In his Admonition to England he virulently attacked the leaders who allowed Catholicism back in England. In The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women he argued that a female ruler (like English Queen Mary Tudor) was “most odious in the presence of God” and that she was “a traitoress and rebel against God.” In his Appellations to the Nobility and Commonality of Scotland, he extended to ordinary people the right—indeed the duty—to rebel against unjust rulers. As he told Queen Mary of Scotland later, “The sword of justice is God’s, and if princes and rulers fail to use it, others may.”

Knox returned to Scotland in 1559, and he again deployed his formidable preaching skills to increase Protestant militancy. Within days of his arrival, he preached a violent sermon at Perth against Catholic “idolatry,” causing a riot. Altars were demolished, images smashed, and religious houses destroyed.
In June, Knox was elected the minister of the Edinburgh church, where he continued to exhort and inspire. In his sermons, Knox typically spent half an hour calmly exegeting a biblical passage. Then as he applied the text to the Scottish situation, he became “active and vigorous” and would violently pound the pulpit.

Said one note taker, “he made me so to grew [quake] and tremble, that I could not hold pen to write.”
The Lords of the Congregation militarily occupied more and more cities, so that finally, in the 1560 Treaty of Berwick, the English and French agreed to leave Scotland. (The English, now under Protestant Elizabeth I, had come to the aid of the Protestant Scots; the French were aiding the Catholic party). The future of Protestantism in Scotland was assured.

The Parliament ordered Knox and five colleagues to write a Confession of Faith, the First Book of Discipline, and The Book of Common Order—all of which cast the Protestant faith of Scotland in a distinctly Calvinist and Presbyterian mode.

Knox finished out his years as preacher of the Edinburgh church, helping shape the developing Protestantism in Scotland. During this time, he wrote his History of the Reformation of Religion in Scotland.

Though he remains a paradox to many, Knox was clearly a man of great courage: one man standing before Knox’s open grave said, “Here lies a man who neither flattered nor feared any flesh.” Knox’s legacy is large: his spiritual progeny includes some 750,000 Presbyterians in Scotland, 3 million in the United States, and many millions more worldwide.

 

[FreeInChrist]

What I could find on John Knox in 131 Christians Everyone Should Know , and in this case beware of.

John Knox was born around 1514, at Haddington, a small town south of Edinburgh. Around 1529 he entered the University of St. Andrews and went on to study theology. He was ordained in 1536, but became a notary, then a tutor to the sons of local lairds (lower ranking Scottish nobility).
Dramatic events were unfolding in Scotland during Knox’s youth. Many were angry with the Catholic church, which owned more than half the real estate and gathered an annual income of nearly 18 times that of the crown. Bishops and priests were often mere political appointments, and many never hid their immoral lives: the archbishop of St. Andrews, Cardinal Beaton, openly consorted with concubines and sired 10 children.

The constant sea traffic between Scotland and Europe allowed Lutheran literature to be smuggled into the country. Church authorities were alarmed by this “heresy” and tried to suppress it. Patrick Hamilton, an outspoken Protestant convert, was burned at the stake in 1528.

In the early 1540s, Knox came under the influence of converted reformers, and under the preaching of Thomas Guilliame, he joined them. Knox then became a bodyguard for the fiery Protestant preacher George Wishart, who was speaking throughout Scotland.

In 1546, however, Beaton had Wishart arrested, tried, strangled, and burned. In response, a party of 16 Protestant nobles stormed the castle, assassinated Beaton, and mutilated his body. The castle was immediately put to siege by a fleet of French ships (Catholic France was an ally to Scotland). Though Knox was not privy to the murder, he did approve of it, and during a break in the siege, he joined the besieged party in the castle.


During a Protestant service one Sunday, preacher John Rough spoke on the election of ministers, and publicly asked Knox to undertake the office of preacher. When the congregation confirmed the call, Knox was shaken and reduced to tears. He declined at first, but eventually submitted to what he felt was a divine call.
It was a short-lived ministry. In 1547, after St. Andrews Castle had again been put under siege, it finally capitulated. Some of the occupants were imprisoned. Others, like Knox, were sent to the galleys as slaves.

Traveling preacher
Nineteen months passed before he and others were released. Knox spent the next five years in England, and his reputation for preaching quickly blossomed. But when Catholic Mary Tudor took the throne, Knox was forced to flee to France.

He made his way to Geneva, where he met John Calvin. The French reformer described Knox as a “brother … laboring energetically for the faith.” Knox for his part, was so impressed with Calvin’s Geneva, he called it, “the most perfect school of Christ that was ever on earth since the days of the apostles.”
Knox traveled on to Frankfurt am Main, where he joined other Protestant refugees—and quickly became embroiled in controversy. The Protestants could not agree on an order of worship. Arguments became so heated that one group stormed out of a church one Sunday, refusing to worship in the same building as Knox.

Back in Scotland, Protestants were redoubling their efforts, and congregations were forming all over the country. A group that came to be called “The Lords of the Congregation” vowed to make Protestantism the religion of the land. In 1555, they invited Knox to return to Scotland to inspire the reforming task. Knox spent nine months preaching extensively and persuasively in Scotland before he was forced to return to Geneva.

Fiery blasts of the pen
Away from his homeland again, he published some of his most controversial tracts: In his Admonition to England he virulently attacked the leaders who allowed Catholicism back in England. In The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women he argued that a female ruler (like English Queen Mary Tudor) was “most odious in the presence of God” and that she was “a traitoress and rebel against God.” In his Appellations to the Nobility and Commonality of Scotland, he extended to ordinary people the right—indeed the duty—to rebel against unjust rulers. As he told Queen Mary of Scotland later, “The sword of justice is God’s, and if princes and rulers fail to use it, others may.”

Knox returned to Scotland in 1559, and he again deployed his formidable preaching skills to increase Protestant militancy. Within days of his arrival, he preached a violent sermon at Perth against Catholic “idolatry,” causing a riot. Altars were demolished, images smashed, and religious houses destroyed.
In June, Knox was elected the minister of the Edinburgh church, where he continued to exhort and inspire. In his sermons, Knox typically spent half an hour calmly exegeting a biblical passage. Then as he applied the text to the Scottish situation, he became “active and vigorous” and would violently pound the pulpit.

Said one note taker, “he made me so to grew [quake] and tremble, that I could not hold pen to write.”
The Lords of the Congregation militarily occupied more and more cities, so that finally, in the 1560 Treaty of Berwick, the English and French agreed to leave Scotland. (The English, now under Protestant Elizabeth I, had come to the aid of the Protestant Scots; the French were aiding the Catholic party). The future of Protestantism in Scotland was assured.

The Parliament ordered Knox and five colleagues to write a Confession of Faith, the First Book of Discipline, and The Book of Common Order—all of which cast the Protestant faith of Scotland in a distinctly Calvinist and Presbyterian mode.

Knox finished out his years as preacher of the Edinburgh church, helping shape the developing Protestantism in Scotland. During this time, he wrote his History of the Reformation of Religion in Scotland.

Though he remains a paradox to many, Knox was clearly a man of great courage: one man standing before Knox’s open grave said, “Here lies a man who neither flattered nor feared any flesh.” Knox’s legacy is large: his spiritual progeny includes some 750,000 Presbyterians in Scotland, 3 million in the United States, and many millions more worldwide.

Interesting, not surprising.

I am sure if we delve into all the Reformation guys back then we would all take a step back.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Burdock]

Fine... Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I started to wonder how many of you find the following difficult to understand, especially the first paragraph.

Free Will in Knox's Theology​

While Knox affirmed the sovereignty of God in predestination, he also acknowledged the existence of human will. He argued that although God's eternal counsel decrees the fate of individuals, humans still possess a free will that operates within God's sovereign plan. This means that while God predestines, individuals are still responsible for their choices.

I'll focus on the first paragraph. The reasoning and twisting scripture the early Calvinists use will make your head hurt. To me it is clearly Satan and his bag of tricks trying to distort the gospel.

John 20:31: These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. The purpose for these truths being inspired and written is so “that you may believe,” and the world along with you.

21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:21

So, do you think that God’s purpose in having these inspired truths written have returned to Him void? I do not.

The nature of the gospel and God’s revelation is sufficient to enable a lost man to respond willingly to its appeals or instructions. There is no extra work God must do to change the nature of lost humanity to give the gospel a measure of sufficiency.

In other words, God does not need to “reconcile” (fix) the nature of the fallen man in order to enable him to respond willingly to His own appeal to be reconciled from that fallen condition. This most certainly is putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I'll focus on the first paragraph. The reasoning and twisting scripture the early Calvinists use will make your head hurt. To me it is clearly Satan and his bag of tricks trying to distort the gospel.

John 20:31: These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. The purpose for these truths being inspired and written is so “that you may believe,” and the world along with you.

21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:21

So, do you think that God’s purpose in having these inspired truths written have returned to Him void? I do not.

The nature of the gospel and God’s revelation is sufficient to enable a lost man to respond willingly to its appeals or instructions. There is no extra work God must do to change the nature of lost humanity to give the gospel a measure of sufficiency.

In other words, God does not need to “reconcile” (fix) the nature of the fallen man in order to enable him to respond willingly to His own appeal to be reconciled from that fallen condition. This most certainly is putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

Then I can assume you find the words in the first paragraph difficult to understand?

Can I assume you are not a predestined believer, for there is one predestined believer who had difficulty with this?

 

[Burdock]

Then I can assume you find the words in the first paragraph difficult to understand?

Can I assume you are not a predestined believer, for there is one predestined believer who had difficulty with this?

Right. If you look up information that's try's to lift up Calvinism you may find it very confusing. I know I do. It's like putting the cart before the horse thing.

Here is a Theological Critique of Calvanism.


That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without [the grace of God], can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ.

What a strong Calvinist statement of human depravity and our absolute helplessness apart from God to provide for our salvation! It affirms that human beings are so depraved they cannot think, will, or do anything that is truly good. Furthermore, humans cannot save themselves by their own efforts, faith, or free will because they live “in the state of apostasy and sin.” It describes their utter helplessness to think, will, or do good, or to withstand temptations. The only hope for salvation is from God—to be born again and renewed by the Holy Spirit of God. The statement affirms that only God can renew human understanding, thinking, and willing so that humans can do good, for Jesus said that without him humans can do nothing. Indeed, it affirms that any good deed “that can be conceived” must be ascribed only “to the grace of God in Christ.”

One might infer that such a strong Calvinist statement voiced the opinions of the Calvinists who formed the majority at the Synod of Dort (the Remonstrants were systematically excluded from the synod, so their views had no real representation). In fact, this statement is a quote from articles 3 and 4 of the issues raised by the Remonstrants. Such a strong affirmation of human depravity and the complete inability of humans to save themselves means the Remonstrants cannot responsibly be called Pelagians or even semi-Pelagians. Nothing could be more foreign to the beliefs of these Arminian Remonstrants than the notion that sinful humans could initiate, much less earn, their own salvation.


Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique

 

[FreeInChrist]

Right. If you look up information that's try's to lift up Calvinism you may find it very confusing. I know I do. It's like putting the cart before the horse thing.

Here is a Theological Critique of Calvanism.


That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without [the grace of God], can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ.

What a strong Calvinist statement of human depravity and our absolute helplessness apart from God to provide for our salvation! It affirms that human beings are so depraved they cannot think, will, or do anything that is truly good. Furthermore, humans cannot save themselves by their own efforts, faith, or free will because they live “in the state of apostasy and sin.” It describes their utter helplessness to think, will, or do good, or to withstand temptations. The only hope for salvation is from God—to be born again and renewed by the Holy Spirit of God. The statement affirms that only God can renew human understanding, thinking, and willing so that humans can do good, for Jesus said that without him humans can do nothing. Indeed, it affirms that any good deed “that can be conceived” must be ascribed only “to the grace of God in Christ.”

One might infer that such a strong Calvinist statement voiced the opinions of the Calvinists who formed the majority at the Synod of Dort (the Remonstrants were systematically excluded from the synod, so their views had no real representation). In fact, this statement is a quote from articles 3 and 4 of the issues raised by the Remonstrants. Such a strong affirmation of human depravity and the complete inability of humans to save themselves means the Remonstrants cannot responsibly be called Pelagians or even semi-Pelagians. Nothing could be more foreign to the beliefs of these Arminian Remonstrants than the notion that sinful humans could initiate, much less earn, their own salvation

Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique

Okay,

I am about as anti Calvin anti-predestined as you can get.

But I was discussing (debating) a 100% full blooded card carrying predestined believer, and being that this past Sunday was Reformation Sunday John Knox came to my mind and that is why I posted what I did.

and I was told by this person that " " Your post is silly. If they read it and understand it they do so by the power of the Spirit."

John Knox believed in Predestination as well as free will. I posted 2/3 of it it again ,and ask again if you find this difficult to understand.... and I did not write this I sourced it. But I made some key sentences red for clarity.

Free Will in Knox's Theology​

While Knox affirmed the sovereignty of God in predestination, he also acknowledged the existence of human will. He argued that although God's eternal counsel decrees the fate of individuals, humans still possess a free will that operates within God's sovereign plan. This means that while God predestines, individuals are still responsible for their choices.

Knox believed that true freedom is found in aligning one's will with God's. He suggested that humans are free to choose good or evil, but their ability to choose good is ultimately enabled by God's grace. Thus, Knox's view of free will does not contradict his belief in predestination; rather, it complements it by highlighting the necessity of divine grace in human decision-making.
John Knox, held views that emphasized the sovereignty of God while also acknowledging human responsibility. He believed that while God is all-powerful, humans possess the ability to choose between good and evil.

• Human Responsibility: Knox argued that individuals have the freedom to choose their actions. He maintained that God created humans with the capacity to make moral choices, which is essential for genuine faith and repentance.
• Divine Sovereignty: While affirming free will, Knox also emphasized that God's will ultimately governs all things. He believed that God's providence does not negate human choice but rather works through it.
• Predestination: Knox's views on predestination suggest that while God has a plan for salvation, individuals still have the opportunity to respond to God's call. He argued that God's mercy is available to all who genuinely seek it.

Knox's theology presents a balance between divine sovereignty and human free will, asserting that while God is in control, humans are still accountable for their choices. This perspective was significant in shaping Reformed thought during the Reformation.

 

[TedT]

Free Will in Knox's Theology​

While Knox affirmed the sovereignty of God in predestination, he also acknowledged the existence of human will. He argued that although God's eternal counsel decrees the fate of individuals, humans still possess a free will that operates within God's sovereign plan. This means that while God predestines, individuals are still responsible for their choices.

Baffle gab...plainly claiming to reconcile opposites by merely stating it is true, sigh.

 

[Burdock]

Okay,

I am about as anti Calvin anti-predestined as you can get.

But I was discussing (debating) a 100% full blooded card carrying predestined believer, and being that this past Sunday was Reformation Sunday John Knox came to my mind and that is why I posted what I did.

and I was told by this person that " " Your post is silly. If they read it and understand it they do so by the power of the Spirit."

John Knox believed in Predestination as well as free will. I posted 2/3 of it it again ,and ask again if you find this difficult to understand.... and I did not write this I sourced it. But I made some key sentences red for clarity.

Free Will in Knox's Theology​

While Knox affirmed the sovereignty of God in predestination, he also acknowledged the existence of human will. He argued that although God's eternal counsel decrees the fate of individuals, humans still possess a free will that operates within God's sovereign plan. This means that while God predestines, individuals are still responsible for their choices.

Knox believed that true freedom is found in aligning one's will with God's. He suggested that humans are free to choose good or evil, but their ability to choose good is ultimately enabled by God's grace. Thus, Knox's view of free will does not contradict his belief in predestination; rather, it complements it by highlighting the necessity of divine grace in human decision-making.
John Knox, held views that emphasized the sovereignty of God while also acknowledging human responsibility. He believed that while God is all-powerful, humans possess the ability to choose between good and evil.

• Human Responsibility: Knox argued that individuals have the freedom to choose their actions. He maintained that God created humans with the capacity to make moral choices, which is essential for genuine faith and repentance.
• Divine Sovereignty: While affirming free will, Knox also emphasized that God's will ultimately governs all things. He believed that God's providence does not negate human choice but rather works through it.
• Predestination: Knox's views on predestination suggest that while God has a plan for salvation, individuals still have the opportunity to respond to God's call. He argued that God's mercy is available to all who genuinely seek it.

Knox's theology presents a balance between divine sovereignty and human free will, asserting that while God is in control, humans are still accountable for their choices. This perspective was significant in shaping Reformed thought during the Reformation.

I try to stay focused on what I post. If others like to be rude that's on them. You are Free to post what you like. Your posts always make since to me. Keep up the good work.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Baffle gab...plainly claiming to reconcile opposites by merely stating it is true, sigh.

Be that as it may, he still started a main denomination called the Presbyterian Church.