JESUS Verses SAUL

[jeremiah1five]

Gentile Christian theology interprets the Bible with a Gentile mindset and worldview.
For 1900 years since the destruction of the Jewish Second Temple which ended the "ism" of Judaism, and the Times of the Gentiles came into existence with the saving of uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles, the emerging Gentile church fellowship has taken over Hebrew theology and re-interpreted the writings of Saul and the other writers of the New Covenant Scriptures (Matthew to Revelation), through a non-Jewish prism and have come up with many teachings that simply are not bible.

Now, I'm not going to get into the ones I see as contradictory to the foundational teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures of Law, Psalms, and Prophets, because if a teaching that comes from out of Gentile Christian minds is not supported by the Hebrew Scriptures, then it is to be thrown away and rejected. Saul was a Hebrew man. He was a Pharisee and when he became a knowledgeable follower of Israel's Messiah, Jesus Christ, and if he studied the Hebrew Scriptures as a Pharisee of the Sanhedrin would, then all his teachings and conclusion would be the same as Jesus' in the gospels. And I will tell you now, they are. At least, when his writings are rightly divided and the meanings of his words are correctly understood with a Hebrew/Jewish mindset, then whatever Saul said in his writings would be equal to those things Jesus Christ taught. But has the Gentile Christian church fellowship of 1900 years understood Saul correctly in their past and present teachings from their pulpits and academic studies? Let's see if what Jesus said is the same as what Saul said on the same subjects and whether the Gentile Christian church has correctly interpreted and taught what he said.
I have three things Jesus said and three things Saul said on the same subject. You may be able to see the equality in what they say, but is it what the Gentile Christian church teaches? If Saul seems to contradict the Lord, then the fault is with Saul. We can't have a gospel of Christ, and then turn around and say, Saul has the power to override it with his own inspired thoughts.
Here we go.

Jesus:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17.

Saul:
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in qordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:15.

Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the Law and yet Saul says the law of commandments is abolished. Is Saul contradicting the Lord?
Next entry:

Jesus:
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18.

Saul:
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10:4.

Jesus said that not one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law until all be fulfilled (and not everything in the Law has yet been fulfilled.) But Saul says, Christ is the end of the Law. Is Saul contradicting the Lord?
Next entry:

Jesus:
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:17.

Saul:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

Jesus said that if one was to enter into life to keep the commandments. Saul says that by the deeds of the Law (keeping) no flesh shall be justified (declared "Not Guilty!" by God.) Is Saul contradicting the Lord?

Personally, I don't believe Saul is contradicting the Lord. But you Gentile Christians who are reading this have been taught something entirely different from what the Lord said in your Gentile Christian education with regard to the words and teachings of Saul. What is the cry of Gentile Christians I always hear that we are under grace and not the Law? Well, is that what Jesus says in Matthew 5 above?

@praise_yeshua in all my comments and responses you read into them things I do not say and then accuse me of rejecting the ministry of Saul. I have never said that, but you take my words and twist them in your false Gentile indoctrinated mind and make me say things I never said. That is dishonest, deceitful and you are an accuser of the brethren. But I wonder if we are truly brethren. I wonder IF we have the same Father. I don't want an apology because I believe you'll find a way to twist the truth of our interaction and find some angle to prove you are right and I am wrong and still against the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Neither is THAT true. It's just I see the Scripture of all 66 books of the bible as inspired, inerrant, and the basis of what our doctrine as born-again believers should be, and that is, to understand what Jesus meant when He said, "Salvation is of the Jews" and the basis of all we are instructed and commanded to believe of this "so-great salvation."
What I reject is the Gentile Christian mindset that has re-interpreted ALL 66 books of the Hebrew Scriptures to teach people like you things that contradict the Lord in all His Word to us true believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But this post is not about you. I will continue to interpret and understand the Hebrew Scriptures with a Hebrew mindset as though I am a Jewish man and one of the spiritual twelve tribes of Israel because I am. As a Gentile I have no covenant with God because in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets God has made no covenant with Gentiles and I am eternally grateful God had called me out of the world and into His marvelous light. He didn't have to do it. But for His purpose and plan I do serve a purpose in the body of Christ and that is to point out error that is out there in Gentile Christendom and share the truth of what God has taught me of His Truth to any and all of whom He has opened an ear, an eye and mind. And to all who read this post I say, still..

Salvation is OF THE JEWS!

Is anyone here going to tell me it's not and contradict the Lord?

Now Go, and figure that out!

 

[praise_yeshua]

in all my comments and responses you read into them things I do not say and then accuse me of rejecting the ministry of Saul. I have never said that, but you take my words and twist them in your false Gentile indoctrinated mind and make me say things I never said. That is dishonest, deceitful and you are an accuser of the brethren.

How am I suppose to deal with such blatant lies?

You have repeatedly rejected the words of Paul and claimed his name is a gimmick. Your words are clear. They speak for themselves. Claiming you accept the ministry of Paul is a farce. A lie of epict proportions. You refuse to engage in any meaningful detail. If you want to have a dedicated debate that requires a line by line response, I'll be glad to deal further with your false claims.

 

[Fred]

If Saul seems to contradict the Lord, then the fault is with Saul.

The fault is with your misunderstanding of what Paul affirmed.
By the way, God through an angel referred to Paul as Paul (Acts 27:23-24).

 

[jeremiah1five]

The fault is with your misunderstanding of what Paul affirmed.
By the way, God through an angel referred to Paul as Paul (Acts 27:23-24).

And what did Saul affirm?

 

[jeremiah1five]

How am I suppose to deal with such blatant lies?

You have repeatedly rejected the words of Paul and claimed his name is a gimmick. Your words are clear. They speak for themselves. Claiming you accept the ministry of Paul is a farce. A lie of epict proportions. You refuse to engage in any meaningful detail. If you want to have a dedicated debate that requires a line by line response, I'll be glad to deal further with your false claims.

Are you telling me what I said or are you going to actually understand what I said?
I did say you'd find an angle to maintain your accusations. I now believe you are NOT a born-again Christian.
Let me start twisting your words, now.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The fault is with your misunderstanding of what Paul affirmed.
By the way, God through an angel referred to Paul as Paul (Acts 27:23-24).

I think the KJV translators did that.

 

[Fred]

And what did Saul affirm?

Paul correctly affirmed the same thing.
He referred to himself as Paul (Romans 1:1).

 

[Fred]

I think the KJV translators did that.

From the NASB (1995):

Acts 27:23-24
(23) For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
(24) saying, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, God has granted you all those who are sailing with you.’

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you telling me what I said or are you going to actually understand what I said?
I did say you'd find an angle to maintain your accusations. I now believe you are NOT a born-again Christian.
Let me start twisting your words, now.

You can't. Because I don't run from what I say.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Paul correctly affirmed the same thing.
He referred to himself as Paul (Romans 1:1).

I'm a Christ-follower. Jesus called him "Saul, Saul."

 

[jeremiah1five]

From the NASB (1995):

Acts 27:23-24
(23) For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
(24) saying, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, God has granted you all those who are sailing with you.’

Saul was a Hebrew of Hebrews and a Pharisee of Pharisees.
He would be addressed by His Hebrew name being Hebrew.
Paul is the Romanized version, and he changed his name as an evangelical gimmick to be more acceptable to Gentiles.

 

[Fred]

I'm a Christ-follower. Jesus called him "Saul, Saul."

Before his conversion.

 

[Fred]

Saul was a Hebrew of Hebrews and a Pharisee of Pharisees.
He would be addressed by His Hebrew name being Hebrew.
Paul is the Romanized version, and he changed his name as an evangelical gimmick to be more acceptable to Gentiles.

Thus, your blame for the KJV translators just bit the dust.

Instead of admitting your error you move on to something else.
Heretic so often just never learn.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Before his conversion.

At his birth God gave him his name.
After his spiritual birth God gave him a name (which I know.)
At my birth God gave me my name.
After my spiritual birth God gave me my spiritual name.
God did not give Saul the Romanize version of his name, a Gentile version, to a Hebrew man of the Covenant? God would not do that to one of His Chosen. God would not give a son of Abraham a heathen name.
I think you have been infected with Gentile propaganda to an extent I wonder if you'll ever recover.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Thus, your blame for the KJV translators just bit the dust.

Instead of admitting your error you move on to something else.
Heretic so often just never learn.

I know the history of the Hampton Court assembly and the decision to make a new translation for the English-speaking people. I know the history of Westcott and Hort's committee to claim they were going to update and revise the KJV but instead came out with a totally new Greek text based on corrupt manuscripts that the Church never used and of whom its origin and authors are unknown. You probably use a Nestle-Aland or Bible Society translation by these publishing houses that care more for profit then accuracy. I know the politics behind the push for a New Anglican translation by Presbyterians who tried to bring reform to the English church and the forces involved in their society against them, and the diverse religious make-up of translators involved in the making of the KJV. I know why there is the use in the KJV of Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost. Do you know any of these things? I doubt it. You are infected by Gentile propaganda of the last 1900 years.
I am a Biblical Christian. That's the ONLY kind there is in existence.
If one's Christianity is not Biblical, then it is NOT Christianity.

 

[Fred]

God did not give Saul the Romanize version of his name,

And yet that is what God properly referred to Him as through His angel (post 3).

 

[Fred]

I know the history of the Hampton Court assembly and the decision to make a new translation for the English-speaking people. I know the history of Westcott and Hort's committee to claim they were going to update and revise the KJV but instead came out with a totally new Greek text based on corrupt manuscripts that the Church never used and of whom its origin and authors are unknown. You probably use a Nestle-Aland or Bible Society translation by these publishing houses that care more for profit then accuracy. I know the politics behind the push for a New Anglican translation by Presbyterians who tried to bring reform to the English church and the forces involved in their society against them, and the diverse religious make-up of translators involved in the making of the KJV. I know why there is the use in the KJV of Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost. Do you know any of these things? I doubt it. You are infected by Gentile propaganda of the last 1900 years.
I am a Biblical Christian. That's the ONLY kind there is in existence.
If one's Christianity is not Biblical, then it is NOT Christianity.

Cite the Greek manuscripts that agree with you.

 

[synergy]

Gentile Christian theology interprets the Bible with a Gentile mindset and worldview.
For 1900 years since the destruction of the Jewish Second Temple which ended the "ism" of Judaism, and the Times of the Gentiles came into existence with the saving of uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles, the emerging Gentile church fellowship has taken over Hebrew theology and re-interpreted the writings of Saul and the other writers of the New Covenant Scriptures (Matthew to Revelation), through a non-Jewish prism and have come up with many teachings that simply are not bible.

Now, I'm not going to get into the ones I see as contradictory to the foundational teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures of Law, Psalms, and Prophets, because if a teaching that comes from out of Gentile Christian minds is not supported by the Hebrew Scriptures, then it is to be thrown away and rejected. Saul was a Hebrew man. He was a Pharisee and when he became a knowledgeable follower of Israel's Messiah, Jesus Christ, and if he studied the Hebrew Scriptures as a Pharisee of the Sanhedrin would, then all his teachings and conclusion would be the same as Jesus' in the gospels. And I will tell you now, they are. At least, when his writings are rightly divided and the meanings of his words are correctly understood with a Hebrew/Jewish mindset, then whatever Saul said in his writings would be equal to those things Jesus Christ taught. But has the Gentile Christian church fellowship of 1900 years understood Saul correctly in their past and present teachings from their pulpits and academic studies? Let's see if what Jesus said is the same as what Saul said on the same subjects and whether the Gentile Christian church has correctly interpreted and taught what he said.
I have three things Jesus said and three things Saul said on the same subject. You may be able to see the equality in what they say, but is it what the Gentile Christian church teaches? If Saul seems to contradict the Lord, then the fault is with Saul. We can't have a gospel of Christ, and then turn around and say, Saul has the power to override it with his own inspired thoughts.
Here we go.

Jesus:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17.

Saul:
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in qordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:15.

Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the Law and yet Saul says the law of commandments is abolished. Is Saul contradicting the Lord?
Next entry:

Jesus:
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18.

Saul:
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10:4.

Jesus said that not one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law until all be fulfilled (and not everything in the Law has yet been fulfilled.) But Saul says, Christ is the end of the Law. Is Saul contradicting the Lord?
Next entry:

Jesus:
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:17.

Saul:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

Jesus said that if one was to enter into life to keep the commandments. Saul says that by the deeds of the Law (keeping) no flesh shall be justified (declared "Not Guilty!" by God.) Is Saul contradicting the Lord?

Personally, I don't believe Saul is contradicting the Lord. But you Gentile Christians who are reading this have been taught something entirely different from what the Lord said in your Gentile Christian education with regard to the words and teachings of Saul. What is the cry of Gentile Christians I always hear that we are under grace and not the Law? Well, is that what Jesus says in Matthew 5 above?

@praise_yeshua in all my comments and responses you read into them things I do not say and then accuse me of rejecting the ministry of Saul. I have never said that, but you take my words and twist them in your false Gentile indoctrinated mind and make me say things I never said. That is dishonest, deceitful and you are an accuser of the brethren. But I wonder if we are truly brethren. I wonder IF we have the same Father. I don't want an apology because I believe you'll find a way to twist the truth of our interaction and find some angle to prove you are right and I am wrong and still against the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Neither is THAT true. It's just I see the Scripture of all 66 books of the bible as inspired, inerrant, and the basis of what our doctrine as born-again believers should be, and that is, to understand what Jesus meant when He said, "Salvation is of the Jews" and the basis of all we are instructed and commanded to believe of this "so-great salvation."
What I reject is the Gentile Christian mindset that has re-interpreted ALL 66 books of the Hebrew Scriptures to teach people like you things that contradict the Lord in all His Word to us true believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But this post is not about you. I will continue to interpret and understand the Hebrew Scriptures with a Hebrew mindset as though I am a Jewish man and one of the spiritual twelve tribes of Israel because I am. As a Gentile I have no covenant with God because in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets God has made no covenant with Gentiles and I am eternally grateful God had called me out of the world and into His marvelous light. He didn't have to do it. But for His purpose and plan I do serve a purpose in the body of Christ and that is to point out error that is out there in Gentile Christendom and share the truth of what God has taught me of His Truth to any and all of whom He has opened an ear, an eye and mind. And to all who read this post I say, still..

Salvation is OF THE JEWS!

Is anyone here going to tell me it's not and contradict the Lord?

Now Go, and figure that out!

There is no Jesus versus Paul whatsoever if that's what you're implying by your title. Paul called himself Paul at least at least 28 times in his Epistles, so I'll honor his choice and keep calling him Paul if you don't mind.

First of all, Paul was not antinomian by any stretch of the imagination. Read Romans 7. There you will see that Paul does not seek to abolish nor denigrate the Law at all. In fact, he said a lot of excellent things about the Law in Romans 7, going as far as declaring that "the Law is spiritual" - but notice the "but" in one of his passages:

(Rom 7:14) "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin."

We still have a problem in spite of all the wonderful things that the Law did for the Jews. We are still "sold under sin" and there is absolutely nothing that the Law can do about that. It's only by believing in Jesus can we be redeemed from being "sold under sin". It's only by believing in Christ can one be made righteous, not by the Law (Rom 3:20, 10:4). Also, the Law-Giver, who is greater than the Law, has the ability to abrogate ordinances like circumcision (Eph 2:15) as declared by the Apostles in the Jerusalem Council.

Now why didn't Jesus use the exact terminology as Paul? To answer that, you need to understand that the context of Jesus' words were pre-Pentecost and pre-Cross whereas Paul's words were post-Pentecost and post-Cross. Paul had the added luxury that the Cross had happened and that he can now point directly to what Jesus had done to make us righteous upon our belief in Christ.

Let me mention just a few things that the Gentile (Greek-speaking) World while I have your attention

• The Abrahamic Covenant covers all people “in Christ”. Read Gal 3:29 “And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.”,
• The Greek OT (LXX) was a gift by Hebrew-speaking Jews to Greek-Speaking Jews and by extension to the entire Gentile world,
• The legitimacy of the Greek OT (LXX) was made manifest when the Apostles predominately quoted the LXX instead of any Hebrew-based OT,
• The Greek-speaking Diaspora Jews were elected by God to be dispersed amongst the Roman Empire so that they can spread the Gospel across the Roman Empire (with their Greek OT in hand) upon their conversion,
• Greek, the Lingua Franca of the Eastern Roman Empire, was the language unanimously chosen over Hebrew by all Apostles for their Epistles, so that all people, not just Jews, would hear the Gospel and be converted,
• Gentiles are now crafted into the True Vine but Gentiles must stay humble because just as non-believing Jewish branches are broken off, any future apostatizing Gentile branches can be broken off too.
• The Christological Councils were headed by the Greek Church Fathers. Our understanding of the Holy Trinity and of Christ’s Divinity was nailed down by those Greek Church Fathers – the antidote against all Christological heresies.

You see the Gentile nations possess all privileges and means to be everything God first envisioned the nation of Israel to be. Gentiles lack nothing.

 

[synergy]

I know the history of the Hampton Court assembly and the decision to make a new translation for the English-speaking people. I know the history of Westcott and Hort's committee to claim they were going to update and revise the KJV but instead came out with a totally new Greek text based on corrupt manuscripts that the Church never used and of whom its origin and authors are unknown. You probably use a Nestle-Aland or Bible Society translation by these publishing houses that care more for profit then accuracy. I know the politics behind the push for a New Anglican translation by Presbyterians who tried to bring reform to the English church and the forces involved in their society against them, and the diverse religious make-up of translators involved in the making of the KJV. I know why there is the use in the KJV of Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost. Do you know any of these things? I doubt it. You are infected by Gentile propaganda of the last 1900 years.
I am a Biblical Christian. That's the ONLY kind there is in existence.
If one's Christianity is not Biblical, then it is NOT Christianity.

Personally, I am a Majority Text person myself. I'm ok with the Received Text version. I stay away from the Critical Text. That way I can maneuver, as best as I can, around all the politics that went into creating the English Bibles.

Let's talk about your MT (Masoretic Text) OT, shall we? It's a fact that non-believing Jews were not thrilled by the fact that multitudes of Jews were being converted into Christians. Please answer the following questions/requests:

• The legitimacy of the Greek OT (LXX) was made manifest when the Apostles predominately quoted the LXX instead of any Hebrew-based OT. Do you acknowledge that fact?
• The Greek OT (LXX) has clear verses about Christ and that he would be born of a virgin (παρθένος). Please tell us what the MT says in Isaiah 7:14.
• Why did the Jews rip out all of the OT books that their Hellenized Jewish colleagues wrote in Greek? The OT was an open canon and as such the Jews could not appeal to any canon to justify their actions.
• It is in fact a stunning disaster that Jerome created the Vulgate from the Masoretic Text instead of the Septuagint LXX text. Many English translations did the same thing. That's why many quotes of the OT (written in the NT) do not line up with what's written in the OT. This is one of Christianity's greatest disasters to ever inflict us.

 

[jeremiah1five]

And yet that is what God properly referred to Him as through His angel (post 3).

Again, it was the translators. Why do you take a practicing Hebrew man and try to make him Gentile. Is that to match your Gentile Jesus?