You are so trained to misread scriptures that you also misread my arguments against the distorted views you share. I still am waiting for you to show that someone else has the actual title of Son of God. It would help your future if you realize there is only this one Son of God who is designated because he is actually God's Son with the attributes of his Father. Stop trying to outdo Christ.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
dwight92070
Active Member
Their is an infinite difference between Jesus being called the Son of God, compared to us being called sons of God or even Adam being called the son of God. Hebrews tells us that Jesus "is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature and upholds all things by the word of His power."
There is no man who can claim those attributes, except the one man who is also God. Yes, we were made in the image of God, but NOT the exact image of God. If we were, that would reduce God to the status of a creature, instead of who He is - our Creator.
charismaticlady
Active Member
On the other hand for most of the Church it is hard not to believe in the Trinity seeing as we are commanded to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, seemingly three separate persons. The hard part is seeing them as One God. It is easy for me because 1 Thes. 5:23 and Col. 2:9 shows how we are one person made in their - God's image. I'm sort of a Trinitarian, but not. A Triunitarian would be more accurate. I see the three as One. You see the flaws in the Trinity, but haven't accepted a triune God which includes Jesus. Even though Jesus was born with a 100% human body, His spirit and soul was 100% God. That affected His body. It could die, because it was human fulfilling the sacrifice because He was sinless within, but see no corruption because He is God.
It is hard for people to see them as One because the three have such different roles, but that is not hard when you realize our mind is different than our brain, but they are inseparable, and the mind is "greater" than our brain. I'm sure you know whose who in that scenario. It is why Jesus said the Father is greater than the Son. For anyone reading this, the mind is the Father who is invisible spirit, and the brain represents our human body who is Jesus. This is why the disciples asked Jesus to "show us the Father." And it amazed Jesus that they still didn't understand, but said "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." This is also why 1 Cor. 2:16 tells us who are born again of the Spirit that we have the mind of Christ. Obviously, Jesus meant He had the mind of the Father. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and lives in our conscience/heart.
As far as our "nature," because of Adam's WILLFUL sin (a sin unto death, as opposed to Eve's unintentional sin, a sin not unto death, 1 John 5:16-17) instead of just a clean human nature full of free will, we have inherited part of Satan's nature - a sin nature, and are originally born a slave to sin. This is why all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. This is why Jesus said, we must be born again. Satan's nature cannot inherit heaven. John 8:32, 34-36. Jesus, the man, was not born with a sin nature because of the seed of the Father. The seed of the Father in 1 John 3:9 is why we cannot commit sins unto death either. The Church could not understand the difference between the two different levels of sin, so added the word, "practice" to verses clearly about sins unto death. Total ignorance. They also deleted other parts of God's Word like the last words of Romans 8:1 and 1 John 5:7. I know you know the difference. That part of all human's current nature - the nature of Satan/the sin nature - is what is born again. Our nature is within. It is our spirit and soul. Only our body will now see corruption, because we are 100% human, including the sin nature we were born with. But the born again's mind of Christ will live on.
Paul's use of the word "flesh" in our English Bibles is talking about the sin nature. That is why Romans 7:5-6 and Romans 8:9 shows we are not in the "flesh" any longer. That usage is not about our body's flesh of bones, muscles and organs. Many false denominations still teach a Christian has a sin nature. To me, that belief is slapping the face of Jesus. It is why Matthew 7:19-23 is about Christians that Jesus never knew. (That applied to be for the first 30 years of going to church).
Do you understand where I am coming from, whether you agree or not?
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Runningman
Active Member
Which has zero to do with being God. The way Jesus is is the way Paul taught others will become like. You misunderstand who he is and what his purpose is.
Question for your path off of error. Since Jesus is the image of God, and we Christians are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus, then do you understand we will not become God?
Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
Runningman
Active Member
You're confusing attributes with deity. If you could only believe what the Bible says you would understand that God and all of the prophets explicitly stated God is one person known as YHWH the Father. Yet after all of these months your only reply seems to be "Don't read the Bible for what it explicitly states." Did you notice that John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6 are still there? You can't change it, but I do like reading your seemingly desperate attempts to try. You all have poured so many years into this and still haven't found a way to write the trinity into the Bible.
So since you're still replying I suppose you must be at least partially open to believing in the Christian God. Do you believe the Father is a person, an attribute, a status, or who/what exactly?
Runningman
Active Member
This is my favorite section. Very astute observation and you've explained it clearly and concisely. I might have to re-use some or all of that.
Peterlag
Active Member
We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.
The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.
Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
you are stripping Christ of his deity. You try to say the preexistent One does not have his divine attributes as deity. That is ignorance of Jesus and the prophets that you share. The prophets are not stating "God is one person." They only speak of God against the false gods. You have to make up ideas or misinterpret them to suggest what the prophets say.
You forget John 17:5 or just deny it outright. No one says there is no ambiguity in passages unless he or she is just denying those that contradict the unitarian view. It is an error to interpret passages you like into supporting your doctrine while denying the rest.
Forget the trinitarian doctrine. You just have to prove that the testimony of the deity of Christ in scriptures is wrong. After you realize that the preexistent One is God and became flesh, then you can start explaining why this does not refer to two gods.
I indeed follow the true God who includes Jesus within that.
We do recognize certain generic attributes of God as creator and unique and solely in that act and power -- i.e. excluding that other gods have any real existence and equivalence -- i.e. pretenders. But though we know attributes of God, these are only for our minds to have a handle on who God is.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Yes, my friend, this is the belief I knew we both share. We are both brilliant. LOL The only difference is that our body will see corruption, whereas, Jesus' body didn't. We are children of God in nature. Jesus' was the only begotten Son of God and his human body could not see corruption because Jesus is God, yet could die and defeat Satan's hold on us. This is why Jesus is 100% God and 100% human. The pastors that know this but don't know how anyone can be 200% of anything, believe the lie they still willfully sin from their sin nature. Impossible, unless they never experienced being born again of the Spirit. All things become clearer after that. I literally felt a heaviness leave my body the evening I was born again of the Spirit. And yes, it is literal and supernatural.
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dwight92070
Active Member
If you were allowed to teach at my church, I would have to leave and find another church. You are so confused and so mistaken. But that's what happens to people who say they can hear the voice of God speaking to them on a regular basis. They open themselves up to doctrines of demons.
dwight92070
Active Member
Like I said, You, charismaticlady, and Peterlag, birds of a feather - all confused and heresy.
Runningman
Active Member
Do you believe the soul of God went to Hades?
Acts 2
27because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Omnipresence is not limited. Why? Do you believe God couldn't? Jesus went somewhere and preached to the souls who died in the flood.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
charismaticlady
Active Member
From what I said, respond with what you find is error and give me your belief.
Runningman
Active Member
Or it can mean that Jesus' soul went to hades, the realm of the dead, because it was sacrificed and died and was "made alive" by or in the Spirit again. This isn't without additional support.
Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
The question is... is only the physical human body of Jesus the sin sacrifice?
charismaticlady
Active Member
Yes, Scripture says that because Adam was a human man, another man was needed to be the sacrifice. But no man was sinless enough for that sacrifice, so God had to make that sacrifice of Himself. That is why Jesus was conceived with the seed of the Father. His body could die, but could not corrupt even in hades. Nevertheless, God succeeded to destroy the works of Satan and the sin nature that was of Satan.
dwight doesn't believe this, but can you? Do you believe a Christian still has a sin nature?
Peterlag
Active Member
The Bible never says Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other...
Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.
The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time.
Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.
The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time.
Ok. Let's suppose the Trinitarian view is a little too emphatic of the humanity of Jesus creating a will distinct from the Father. Another option is that this indeed was a prayer of dedicating his decision to that of the Father. The unitarian still loses the debate.
Funny how verses like Heb 1:2 are turned against Jesus when the passage says the world was made through Christ. That would be hard if he did not exist in some fashion before creation. Then in Rom 8:17, you think it so odd that the Father would not have the Son as an heir of the kingdom of God. It gets confusing what unitarians are left believing.
It gets so convoluted when the unitarian forgets the Father-Son relationship and just blend everything into them as some indistinguishable God as being the only representation of the Godhead. If you erase the distinction (yet in unity) of the Father and Son, you end up with the confusion of unitarian view.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Why do you keep addressing Peterlag as if he is Unitarian? He's not. He was just not ever taught about the Trinity so asks about it. As far as I can tell, only Runningman and Amazing Grace are actually Unitarian.
Runningman
Active Member
The body is inert, made of various elements and compounds, just as sinless as a rock. What is the sinner or saint is the soul and spirit.
As Jesus said:
Mark 7
15Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him; but the things that come out of a man, these are what defile him.”
20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him.
21For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness.
23All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man.”
Meaning that the source of the corruption is not physical, but rather spiritual. So the human body of Jesus could not have been the unique sacrifice of he was capable of giving nor the the body being the only thing that was sacrificed, and it is unthinkable that God died. Who was sacrificed was the body, soul, and spirit of a human named Jesus, not God. Does that makes sense?
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