Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

mikesw seems to believe you are Unitarian, but have you ever claimed to be? There are other parts of Christianity that do not claim that Jesus is God, like JW's. Then there are others that are on the other extreme like Oneness Pentecostals that only believe Jesus is God, who acts in the role as the Father at times, and acts as the Holy Spirit at other times. So that seems to be the scriptural term of Jesus embodying the Godhead.

I am a Christian and I do believe God is Unitarian, but saying that Christians must be worshipped as God because they are sons of God is mocking. I don't know of any real Christian would attempt strip the Father of His exclusive deity and rightful status the sole object our of worship (John 4:23,24). With those kind of statements, @mikesw reveals his hand about what he is.

Personally, I believe that Jesus embodies the Godhead, therefore, making all three one God, making Jesus just as much God as the Father and the Holy Spirit. I believe the controversial 1 John 5:7, the long version from the KJV. Trinitarians believe the Father, Jesus and the Spirit are three separate persons. I don't. Seeing as man is made in the likeness of Elohim, a plural word for God, I too believe that Jesus is God and embodies the whole Godhead Who is one triune being - One God made up of spirit, soul and body just like man 1 Thess. 5:23. The Father is Spirit or mind, which explains why Jesus said He doesn't do anything He doesn't see the Father doing (in His mind). The Holy Spirit is the soul which is the heart, emotions and soul that produces the fruit of the Spirit and the power to be free from sin, and Jesus is the body with the mind of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit. All three are inseparable making One God. Just as I am one person and am inseparable from my mind and soul. Not sure if there is a name for what I see the Bible teaching. Does any of this relate to what you believe? As @Peterlag knows, it seems to me that you and he seem to be more trinitarian than I am. You've separated Jesus from the Father as if they are two separate persons. Not sure what you do with the Holy Spirit. Is It/He God, or only the Father? Not sure how you can separate the mind of Christ which is the Father, into two separate beings. What do you believe about the preexistence of the Word becoming Jesus, the Son of God? And how is an only begotten Son not be God. To me, God is the whole family. God is like our Executive Office which consists of more than the President.

Quick question. Can you explain what your understanding of the word "Godhead" is according to what the Bible says?

@Peterlag please help explain and tell me is there is a corporate name for what you believe, like Unitarian or JW, or completely on your own like I am.

If it had to pick a title, I would say the closest thing to what I believe would be called Biblical Unitarianism. I believe, based on what you have said above, your beliefs are closer to Oneness Pentecostalism. Is that accurate?

 

[Runningman]

Not sure what you do with the Holy Spirit. Is It/He God, or only the Father?

Unitarians normally see a distinction between the Holy Spirit as another title for the Father or the Father's power. We know God is Spirit and we know God is holy. We believe as Unitarians the Father is the only true God, therefore the Father is Spirit and holy, thus the Father is Holy Spirit. So there must be one Holy Spirit and not two, ruling out a third person known as Holy Spirit. This explains a lot of instances in which the Father is excluded or the Spirit is excluded because it would be redundant to mention them together. Also, there are contexts in which holy spirit can be seen as the power or mind of God.

 

[dwight92070]

Wow mikesw, they're coming out of the woodwork! Those demons don't like to be exposed for who they are, do they? So Peterlag does believe in a "trinity" after all: God, the Lord, and It. He tells us that the Spirit of Christ, or it - one of the two, told him that he or it liked his book right after he completed writing it. In fact, he or it liked it so much that it took him or it 20 minutes to express how much he or it liked it.

Does this not prove the origin of their false teaching - that it is demonic? charismaticlady says God always answers her prayers immediately and has for decades, and that she no longer sins. She hears "His" voice almost daily. And that God showed her that Paul didn't know what he was talking about when he forbade women pastors and teachers, and that she can see different colored clouds over pastors as they preach, showing her whether their teaching is good or bad. She says that is a gift from God. The rest of us who don't have that gift, we have to determine whether a message is good or bad the old-fashioned way. By comparing what is being said to what the Scriptures say.

Now Runningham and Eve have joined the fray with their own brand of false teaching. Birds of a feather ... Wait, where's brightfame? I'm sure he will be along soon.

 

[JesusFan]

Except for the Trinity and Jesus is God have you ever heard @Peterlag teach on the gospel? He is brilliant and knows the true gospel that Paul preached. He knows that Jesus took away our sin and not just cover it up. In this day and age of false denominations teaching doctrines of demons regarding sin and grace, Peterlag shows none of that. In fact, I have had way more problems with the Calvinist's knowledge of the gospel than on Peterlag's. I was saved for years before I saw Titus 2:13 and realized that Jesus actually is God. I'm confident that Peterlag will come to that truth someday as I did. He is like the man with 10 talents and will keep receiving more than those who only had one and it was taken away from them and given to he who had 10.

he denies the trinity and Deity of Jesus, so would not be a "brillant" teacher and preacher, but one teaching heresies

 

[JesusFan]

Unitarians normally see a distinction between the Holy Spirit as another title for the Father or the Father's power. We know God is Spirit and we know God is holy. We believe as Unitarians the Father is the only true God, therefore the Father is Spirit and holy, thus the Father is Holy Spirit. So there must be one Holy Spirit and not two, ruling out a third person known as Holy Spirit. This explains a lot of instances in which the Father is excluded or the Spirit is excluded because it would be redundant to mention them together. Also, there are contexts in which holy spirit can be seen as the power or mind of God.

So when both showed up at Jesus water Baptism?

 

[Runningman]

So when both showed up at Jesus water Baptism?

No. God anointed Jesus with the holy spirit and power at his water baptism which enabled him to perform miracles.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[JesusFan]

No. God anointed Jesus with the holy spirit and power at his water baptism which enabled him to perform miracles.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

The father Spoke and the Holy Spirit came 2 separate persons

 

[Runningman]

The father Spoke and the Holy Spirit came 2 separate persons

So you're saying God looks like a bird?

Luke 3
22and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in a bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

 

[JesusFan]

So you're saying God looks like a bird?

Luke 3
22and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in a bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Saying dince Holy Spirit is God, can look like anything He desires to be

 

[Runningman]

Saying dince Holy Spirit is God, can look like anything He desires to be

Do you consider bowing to a form of a bird and saying it is God to be idolatry? Scripture explicitly states it is. The dove in Luke 3:22 is symbolic imagery of the anointing Jesus received at his water baptism.

 

[charismaticlady]

I am a Christian and I do believe God is Unitarian, but saying that Christians must be worshipped as God because they are sons of God is mocking. I don't know of any real Christian would attempt strip the Father of His exclusive deity and rightful status the sole object our of worship (John 4:23,24).

Oh, I thought you might be Unitarian, like Catholic or Protestant, not that God was. Explain.

No Christian says that they must be worshiped. I doubt it has ever crossed anyone's mind. So you might want to stop writing that as any kind of argument in a debate. You won't win any converts, and will only look unlearned.

We are human, but once our sin nature has been cleansed we are given a new nature that can partake of the divine nature of God. That is in nature only and why God calls us "children of God," not to be confused with begotten by the Father that only applies to Jesus, and why He is called "God with us." That's literal. It is why Jesus came to earth to die for us. It is actually all about the resurrection to reconcile us to God. If Jesus just died, but never rose again, and especially without seeing any corruption as a normal human would after even one day, let alone three, then His blood that was shed would not even cover us, let alone have the power to take away all desire to sin. And the goal there is not just righteousness, but holiness.

Angels are referred to as "sons of God" but no created angel of any rank allows themselves to be worshiped, except Satan. But that is one of his sins, not his right. Nor does our new nature give us any right to be worshiped, just clean so that we can have fellowship with God like a child who cries "Abba" or Daddy.

Does holiness confuse you into thinking we want to be worshiped? It just means to be made perfect. That should be the goal in this lifetime for all Christians.

 

[Peterlag]

mikesw seems to believe you are Unitarian, but have you ever claimed to be? There are other parts of Christianity that do not claim that Jesus is God, like JW's. Then there are others that are on the other extreme like Oneness Pentecostals that only believe Jesus is God, who acts in the role as the Father at times, and acts as the Holy Spirit at other times. So that seems to be the scriptural term of Jesus embodying the Godhead.

Personally, I believe that Jesus embodies the Godhead, therefore, making all three one God, making Jesus just as much God as the Father and the Holy Spirit. I believe the controversial 1 John 5:7, the long version from the KJV. Trinitarians believe the Father, Jesus and the Spirit are three separate persons. I don't. Seeing as man is made in the likeness of Elohim, a plural word for God, I too believe that Jesus is God and embodies the whole Godhead Who is one triune being - One God made up of spirit, soul and body just like man 1 Thess. 5:23. The Father is Spirit or mind, which explains why Jesus said He doesn't do anything He doesn't see the Father doing (in His mind). The Holy Spirit is the soul which is the heart, emotions and soul that produces the fruit of the Spirit and the power to be free from sin, and Jesus is the body with the mind of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit. All three are inseparable making One God. Just as I am one person and am inseparable from my mind and soul. Not sure if there is a name for what I see the Bible teaching. Does any of this relate to what you believe? As @Peterlag knows, it seems to me that you and he seem to be more trinitarian than I am. You've separated Jesus from the Father as if they are two separate persons. Not sure what you do with the Holy Spirit. Is It/He God, or only the Father? Not sure how you can separate the mind of Christ which is the Father, into two separate beings. What do you believe about the preexistence of the Word becoming Jesus, the Son of God? And how is an only begotten Son not be God. To me, God is the whole family. God is like our Executive Office which consists of more than the President.

@Peterlag please help explain and tell me is there is a corporate name for what you believe, like Unitarian or JW, or completely on your own like I am.

I am not with any church or group or religion.

It's important to know who they really are in order to fully love and worship God and Jesus. God, the Father, is the Creator of the universe, the Author of the plan of Salvation, the Father of Jesus Christ, and our One God, and removing Him from that exalted position and having Him share His position as “God” with two other “Persons” diminishes who He really is and what He alone has done. Making Jesus into God actually diminishes who he was, and who he is today, and what he accomplished and is still doing. It demeans Jesus because his courage, mental tenacity, love, great faith, and his true greatness is lost if he is made to be God.

Believing Jesus is God also demonstrates disbelief in his own words when he made statements such as “my father is greater than I” and when he prayed to the Father as “the only true God.” The Father has the unique and singular position as God, and should receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that He deserves as the One True God. Jesus Christ has the unique and singular position to receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves as the man approved of God—the only-begotten Son of the Father.

 

[e v e]

So you don't believe others in the Bible are sons of God too? The Bible says they are. I think I know why you would want to deny God's children their status. It must be because if God has many children then it diminishes your novel, new, gnostic doctrine about Jesus being God's son referring to deity, which it does not and with that you've been refuted again.

Romans 8
14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God

1 John 4
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

esau on this earth today has a interest in making sure that the remnant fails

 

[charismaticlady]

Quick question. Can you explain what your understanding of the word "Godhead" is according to what the Bible says?

see below about my views on Oneness Pentecostalism. I cover this question there.

If it had to pick a title, I would say the closest thing to what I believe would be called Biblical Unitarianism. I believe, based on what you have said above, your beliefs are closer to Oneness Pentecostalism. Is that accurate?

I always had the impression, not knowledge, that why most Christians view Unitarianism as a cult was because Unitarians view all religions of the world as having the same God, making the Father the recognized God of Muslims, Hindus, etc. But to be fair, I haven't thought about it much as I've never had a reason to look into it.

As far as Oneness Pentecostalism, we hold similar views about God not being three persons, but I think I hold a closer view of Jesus being the outer shell so to speak of the actual Father and actual Holy Spirit within, making them all inseparable substances of one God. Oneness Pentecostals believe Jesus is God who acts as the Father, and acts as the Holy Spirit that I was told recently when I visited their denomination's local church. Therefore, I'm comfortable with them, but not of them. Their views on sin are the same as most post apostle denominations, starting with Roman Catholics in the fourth century. I'm not a denominationalist, just Spirit-filled with many gifts of the Spirit. I've also seen the most distinguishable, gorgeous bright royal blue anointing on their pastor in the shape of a cloth made of blue florescent water, while giving his sermon that I've ever seen since receiving this gift a couple years ago of having my eyes opened by the Spirit of God. It is the real gift of God that Satan counterfeits as seeing an "aura" around anyone. If Satan has a gift, it is only a counterfeit of the real gift of the Holy Spirit. The real is only to judge the sermon whether it is anointed of God, or just human reasoning. Back in 2001 I received a long prophecy that has come to pass line by line in order and this was the second to last line, "that her eyes be opened by the Spirit of God." If you are wondering if this is scriptural, read 1 Corinthians 2:9-10. Yes, my ears were also opened by the Spirit, but back in 1977. When I told the pastor what I saw, he had never heard of anyone having this gift. But there are three other people at another church I visit who can see the same thing. If there is an anointing of God on the sermon only, we can literally see it as the pastor gives the message.

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

Scripture says humans are made in Their image (plural). So to understand the Godhead, just look at a human. 1 Thes. 5:23 "...whole spirit, soul and body. All the disciples had to do when they asked Jesus to "show us the Father" was to look at Jesus. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One, especially now that the glories Jesus emptied Himself of to come to earth as a baby human but without a sin nature that all normal human babies possess, have been restored. Those "glories" are omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence.

cc: @Peterlag

 

[charismaticlady]

I am not with any church or group or religion.

Has that always been the case? I was raised Seventh-Day Adventist in Illinois until I left it when I was 23. Then was in the Church of Christ with my new husband for a year in Nashville until we both discovered the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for today and left the legalistic, cessationist CofC. Five years later I found out that my now ex finally received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And a year later I finally received it too. I joined the Foursquare denomination in California.

But now I've learned so much that differs from all of them, I'm an avid 1st Century Christian. Period.

 

[Peterlag]

Has that always been the case? I was raised Seventh-Day Adventist in Illinois until I left it when I was 23. Then was in the Church of Christ with my new husband for a year in Nashville until we both discovered the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for today and left the legalistic, cessationist CofC. Five years later I found out that my now ex finally received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And a year later I finally received it too. I joined the Foursquare denomination in California.

But now I've learned so much that differs from all of them, I'm an avid 1st Century Christian. Period.

I was never with any group, but I have studied under men.

Here's a list of some of my teachers...

E. W. Bullinger
Taught me how to understand the Bible with his book called How to enjoy the Bible.

John Sanders
Opened my eyes with his book called The God Who Risks.

Gregory Boyd
Shed a lot of light as did John Sanders with his book called God at War.

Andew Farley
Taught me a lot about our sin nature with his videos on the Perfect You...

Andrew Wommack
Taught me how to walk in the spirit with his videos on Spirit Soul Body...
https://youtu.be/wXJD2vwYW8Y?si=PMitqW-XrSmpH6E3

 

[charismaticlady]

I am not with any church or group or religion.

It's important to know who they really are in order to fully love and worship God and Jesus. God, the Father, is the Creator of the universe, the Author of the plan of Salvation, the Father of Jesus Christ, and our One God, and removing Him from that exalted position and having Him share His position as “God” with two other “Persons” diminishes who He really is and what He alone has done. Making Jesus into God actually diminishes who he was, and who he is today, and what he accomplished and is still doing. It demeans Jesus because his courage, mental tenacity, love, great faith, and his true greatness is lost if he is made to be God.

Believing Jesus is God also demonstrates disbelief in his own words when he made statements such as “my father is greater than I” and when he prayed to the Father as “the only true God.” The Father has the unique and singular position as God, and should receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that He deserves as the One True God. Jesus Christ has the unique and singular position to receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves as the man approved of God—the only-begotten Son of the Father.

"Persons" is the key word that I would disagree with too. But that is the word Trinitarians use. I'm more of the belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three substances of One Triune God. Jesus doesn't just act the role of the Father or Holy Spirit as Oneness Pentecostals believe.

You said "that Jesus is still doing today." What is Jesus doing now?

You said that both the Father and Jesus should receive "all the worship." We should worship only God. I believe Jesus is one of the substances of God, but you don't so why do you worship Jesus. That would certainly make Jesus more than just a human and supernatural.

The Father is greater than the Son, just as our mind is greater than the brain its in. But my mind and brain are inseparable and are both me. We also need our conscience where our power to not sin and be made holy comes from. That is the Holy Spirit, making the three inseparable as One.

It doesn't seem you believe John 1 that the Word is God and became flesh - Jesus. How do you read John 1 and the preexistence of Jesus as the Word making Jesus also part of being the Creator? I see the Father as the mind who frames the Words coming out of His mouth which the Holy Spirit empowered to create everything that is.

 

[mikesw]

So you don't believe others in the Bible are sons of God too? The Bible says they are. I think I know why you would want to deny God's children their status. It must be because if God has many children then it diminishes your novel, new, gnostic doctrine about Jesus being God's son referring to deity, which it does not and with that you've been refuted again.

Romans 8
14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God

1 John 4
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

thanks again for confirming your flattening of the language. This feedback on the hyperliteralist reductionist reading of scripture should be seen as useful to you. Jesus is the only one given the title Son of God. But you are drawn toward exalting common people and diminishing who Jesus is.

 

[charismaticlady]

I was never with any group, but I have studied under men.

Here's a list of some of my teachers...

E. W. Bullinger
Taught me how to understand the Bible with his book called How to enjoy the Bible.

John Sanders
Opened my eyes with his book called The God Who Risks.

Gregory Boyd
Shed a lot of light as did John Sanders with his book called God at War.

Andew Farley
Taught me a lot about our sin nature with his videos on the Perfect You...

Andrew Wommack
Taught me how to walk in the spirit with his videos on Spirit Soul Body...
https://youtu.be/wXJD2vwYW8Y?si=PMitqW-XrSmpH6E3

Do you fellowship with other believers in a building? I do, but sometimes get frustrated when the pastor makes so many mistakes in doctrines concerning grace and sin. It is funny that some of these men are Trinitarians if not all. Which one made you deny the deity of Jesus?

 

[Runningman]

thanks again for confirming your flattening of the language. This feedback on the hyperliteralist reductionist reading of scripture should be seen as useful to you. Jesus is the only one given the title Son of God. But you are drawn toward exalting common people and diminishing who Jesus is.

Thanks for confirming you don't believe anything about the other sons of God in addition to Jesus.