That is a great observation. No prophet, not even Moses, could claim to be from above. It would not make sense as any sort of common saying to share that -- as if it just meant as a claim of superiority. The unitarians really have to oppose too much scripture to hold their view.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
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I guess you have to learn concepts from the bible rather than just expecting phrases shared as milk to you.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Who says they are Unitarian? What about JW? All I see is there are a few who do not believe Jesus is God for some unknown reason. I've never heard any refer to a particular sect. But, I haven't read every post.
Runningman
Active Member
Compared to what the Bible says, the creeds don't match. The creeds are the heresies.
Runningman
Active Member
From beneath and of the world or from above and not of the world mean the same things. The people Jesus was talking to in John 8 were non-believers, but the disciples were believers. Being a believer in his teachings about him being the messiah made them the same as Jesus in regards to being from above/not of the world. Jesus said so.
John 17
16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
It is a warning. So what do you believe it means? Do you believe Jesus about being the Messiah?
Peterlag
Active Member
I would love to see how I take a verse out of context.
Peterlag
Active Member
I asked Trinitarians if they can live within the following verse...
1 Corinthians 1:9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
The first 6 responded with the following...
1.) When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean... neither more nor less.
2.) How many individuals are we referring to?
3.) No one will approach this verse and come to the same conclusions as you, without forcing preconceived assumptions into the verse.
4.) Manuscripts contain the source material with potential scribal variations, whereas translations involve choosing words and grammatical structures that bridge language differences.
5.) We don’t live by one cherry picked verse.
6.) I believe in Jesus, we don’t do it with a singular verse like you.
charismaticlady
Active Member
John 8. You took part of a verse and said it was about God's blessings. I took the same verse but added those before and after which was not about God's blessings at all but about who Jesus is. He came from above, heaven, and is "God with us."
@Runningman Good argument, R. Yes, Jesus is the Messiah/Christ. By His crucifixion and resurrection He destroyed the works of the devil who is below, and is making us dead to sin like Him, so that we cannot commit sin. And God does call us "children of God." But did you notice in John 17 what Jesus asks for? It was what He emptied Himself of to come to earth to be born of a woman so His sinless being could die for us. He was not born with a sin nature, but a clean human nature, and provided the way for the sin to be removed from our inherent sin nature because of Adam, making us clean.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Jesus was not a god, He was part of God. God is plural and we are made in Their likeness - a triune being. Spirit, soul, and body.
R, you and P are more like Trinitarians who believe they are separate persons, than I am! Jesus embodies the whole Godhead.
charismaticlady
Active Member
No, shows that both David and Solomon were types of Kings of israel who pointed towards the future coming final messianic King Jesus, Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53
No, rather it means that ther Holy Spirit Himself stated to us that the full fulfillment was in King Jesus
No, we believe that God the Second person came as human flesh, while your theology there is Oneness or Modualism heresy
No, but the One who came that he was a type of is
the Holy Spirit has told us that to deny jesus as God is damnable heresy, as one would have then a flase Jesus of Islam, JW, Mormons etc who cannot save you from their sins
Peterlag
Active Member
This was my post of John 8. What's out of context?
Here's another one for those of you who did not like 1 John.
John 8:24
...ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he,
Since Jesus is God. Then the above verse reads like the following to the Trinitarian.
...ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am God,
Runningman
Active Member
I can live with that. Jesus is a type of king Solomon, a type of Moses, a type of Elijah, a type of Adam. Never really sat down and considered all of the humans Jesus is a type of, but saying that Jesus is a type of Solomon in regards to Psalm 45:6,7 and Hebrews 1:8,9 makes a lot of sense to me because I know with 100% certainty that Solomon is not God Almighty.
No, but he pointed, as did David, to the Final Davidic King messiah who would be God incarnated
Runningman
Active Member
This was correct up until you said God incarnated. Nothing in the Bible says Jesus is God incarnate.
charismaticlady
Active Member
The Trinitarian would be right. But you don't believe Jesus is God. You told me this was all about God's "blessings" based on part of one verse that spoke of Jesus being He, the Christ. Runningman made a better argument, but didn't prove that Jesus was not God, and I used the same chapter he did and proved that Jesus existed before the foundation of the world and was with the Father. Jesus was part of Elohim, the plural name of God. There is only one God, and He is a triune being with Jesus and the Father and the Spirit all being a part of one God. Therefore, the Father is God. The Son is God. And the Spirit is God. They are all part of One God.
This is why when the disciples asked Jesus to just show them the Father, and Jesus said, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?
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there are two notable JWs. One is Kewl1 and the other is alter2ego. Several other unitarians seem to be like Christadelphians, especially based on their claims of understanding the scriptures directly. The approach becomes, in my terms, a hyperliteralist interpretation. Words are reduced to one meaning that is independent of specific contexts in which they are used.
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