civic
Active Member
so only unitarians are saved in your belief system ?
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
Ray
Active Member
It's a rhetorical question. Jesus knew He is God in human form.
Jesus claimed to be God in John 10:30 when He said, “I and the Father are one.” He repeated this claim on the night of His betrayal when He told Philip, “If you’ve seen me you have seen the Father” (John 14:9).
John said that Jesus is God in the first verse of his Gospel, calling Jesus “the Word”.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).
To verify that he was talking about Jesus, he said, “The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
Paul agreed with John. In Colossians 1:15-16 he wrote;
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
The writer to the Hebrews essentially said the same thing in Hebrews 1:2-3, calling Jesus the one through whom God made the universe, the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.
God Himself agreed with this in Hebrews 1:8. Speaking of His Son He said. “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.”
Finally, In Revelation 1:8, God said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega” and in Rev. 22:13, Jesus said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega.” The only way this could be true of both is if they are one and the same.
In these verses the Bible makes a convincing case for the fact that Jesus is God in human form.
The Bible's Authority Archives – Grace thru faith
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Runningman
Active Member
That's for God to decide but there is nothing about believing in the trinity as part of the gospel. In scripture, your teachings are not recognizable as what Jesus or the disciples said leads to salvation.
MTMattie
Active Member
Cherry pick all you want from Jimmy's translation..... you always ignore the following when I bring it up to you.
Jimmy also has this....
John 10:
30 “I and My Father are one.”
Said convincingly enough that
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
civic
Active Member
Jesus said salvation is going in Him and He is the Savior if all men. By default that makes Him God since God declared in the OT many times He alone is the Savior and Lord but in the NT it’s Christ alone who is Savior/ Lord.
Down goes your theology in one post on this forum
Runningman
Active Member
Not according to Scripture.
No he didn't.
They had already been seeing Jesus for awhile up until this point when Jesus said in John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”
Jesus was referring to seeing the Father in the sense of knowing Him. Seeing versus being blind are used in scripture for knowing/understanding or ignorance.
That doesn't mention Jesus' name.
1 John 1:1-2 says the Word of life is an it. John 1:14 is about something that changed from one state to another, i.e., the word "became" flesh. This isn't the same idea as an incarnation. The word incarnation isn't in Scripture.
This proves that Jesus isn't God. Verse 15 calls him the "image of the invisible God" and yet 1 Timothy 1:17 says the invisible God is the only God. Since Jesus isn't the invisible God then he isn't God.
1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
This proves Jesus is not the Creator. The Creator created through Jesus, not Jesus doing the creating. Furthermore, Hebrews 1:1-3 says the God did not speak through the Son until these last days. Therefore speaking through the Son is not a way God spoke in the past. God spoke in the past through the prophets. When God spoke to create the universe in the past it wasn't through Jesus and the universe was not created "in these last days."
This passage is often misunderstood. The word for "universe" in Hebrews 1:2 is aión and it refers to time which is inconvenient for Trinitarianism.
This is quoted from Psalm 45:6 where in the original context the one it was talking about had a queen. God or Jesus don't have a queen. This is originally referring to a human king, most likely Solomon, and the Psalmist was not referring to Solomon as Lord God Almighty. When the writer transferred Psalm 45:6 to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8, it doesn't transfer that Jesus is God. It is most likely a bad translation, but I will accept Jesus is a little god with strong emphasis on the lower case g.
This is evident from the context where in verse 9 the god mentioned in verse 8 is anointed above his companions by his God.
This isn't Jesus talking. Him "which is, and which was, and which is to come"in Rev. 1:8 is only mentioned in Revelation 1:4 in distinction from Jesus in Rev. 1:5. I also might add, most modern Bible do not make the words of Revelation 1:8 red letters. Therefore Jesus isn't the Almighty in Revelation 1:8.
Here is more of the context for your benefit.
Revelation 1
4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Not many people are convinced by what you presented. In my evangelism I have found more people convert to the Unitarian perspective of God because it's easy to understand, scriptural, and easy to digest that a human isn't God, but rather a man through whom God chose, anointed, empowered, and worked through.In these verses the Bible makes a convincing case for the fact that Jesus is God in human form.
The Bible's Authority Archives – Grace thru faith
Runningman
Active Member
I wouldn't use the false accusations of Jesus' enemies for the basis of your doctrines. It's telling that you need to quote Jesus' enemies and what they said rather than anything Jesus said.
He later called their charge an accusation and denied it by saying he is the son of God in the same way they are.
John 10
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?
Runningman
Active Member
According to Jesus, the Father granted him the authority to give eternal life. Down goes your theology with just one verse from the Bible.
John 17
2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.
civic
Active Member
nope He has always been Savior/Lord- HE is the LORD of GLORY who is called our Great God and Savior.
Runningman
Active Member
Not according to Scripture. Acts says God made Jesus Lord and Christ. Means he was made Lord and Christ at some point when previous he wasn't.
Acts 2
36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”
civic
Active Member
Sorry 1 Cor was written a decade before Acts. Paul called Him the Lord of Glory.
next fallacy
civic
Active Member
He pre exists His birth as a man whom after the resurrection declared Him Lord.
The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory
These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.
John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.
Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do myown will but the will of him who sent me.
Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.
John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."
Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world
John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.
And we have more of the same below
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
And
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
These 2 verses say that he is before all things.
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1
Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Continued :
So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.
We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in this passage.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age
hope this helps !!!
So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.
We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in this passage.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age
hope this helps !!!
MTMattie
Active Member
Eleazar
Active Member
In Matthew 19:17, Jesus is telling a rich young ruler that only God is truly good, emphasizing that no human can claim to possess goodness at the level of God. Keep in mind Jesus is fully God and fully human.
This verse suffers from a double dose of misinterpretation. Both major statements made here are frequently ripped from their contexts and applied in ways not intended by Scripture.
This verse is to highlight the impossibility of obtaining eternal life through works of the law and encourages the ruler to seek righteousness and life through faith in Jesus, who was and is always good.
Jesus insists there is only One who is good. That One is God. In a roundabout way, Jesus is asking the man, "are you calling me God?"
Ray is right, it's a rhetorical question
This verse suffers from a double dose of misinterpretation. Both major statements made here are frequently ripped from their contexts and applied in ways not intended by Scripture.
This verse is to highlight the impossibility of obtaining eternal life through works of the law and encourages the ruler to seek righteousness and life through faith in Jesus, who was and is always good.
Jesus insists there is only One who is good. That One is God. In a roundabout way, Jesus is asking the man, "are you calling me God?"
Ray is right, it's a rhetorical question
Eleazar
Active Member
What does John 10:30 mean?
Jesus has been cornered in the temple by His religious critics in an overtly threatening way (John 10:22–24). They have challenged Him—dared Him, in effect—to repeat His former claims about being the Messiah. Several months prior, Jesus had given analogies about Himself using shepherding as a theme. Through those statements, Jesus claimed to be the only source of salvation. He said His salvation was eternal, permanent, and irrevocable. When challenged by these men, Jesus repeated those claims, and even expounded on them. In the prior verses, Jesus explicitly said that He offered eternal life, which could never be lost. He first referred to His people as being held in His hand, then referred to the same people as being held in God's hand.The suggestion carried in that pair of statements is that Jesus is God. Comments along those lines have enraged Jesus' critics in the past (John 5:18; 8:56–59).
In tight quarters, facing an overtly hostile gang armed for violence (John 10:31), Jesus connects those dots without the slightest hint of subtlety: "I and the Father are one." Part of the meaning of this statement is lost in translation from Greek to English. Jesus uses the "neuter" form of the Greek word for "one" here, implying that they are "unity." Rather than saying that Jesus and God are the same person, Jesus is claiming that He and God are unified as one, a partial explanation of the Trinity.
Unsurprisingly, this tips the mob's anger over the top, and they start another attempt to assassinate Jesus.
BibleRef
Runningman
Active Member
Runningman
Active Member
Refers to unity in the same Spirit with God and Jesus prayed for his disciples to have it in John 17:21-22. This is the very same thing we can have. Most people do not understand that Jesus was simply showing us what is attainable for the child of God. He was the first, there will be many with him.
It's like Paul said. He gets it.
1 Corinthians 6
17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
So are you claiming Jesus was not good?
