Jesus Christ is the wisdom and creation of God

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17:1-5
That isn't a reference to God's exclusive glory since that very same glory is what the apostles received too.
John 17​
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—​

Jesus was referring to the glory he was yet to receive in God's foreknowledge that was then coming into fruition at that present time. Jesus was speaking those words very near the time he was going to be crucified and yet the crucifixion had already happened in a non-literal sense because it is about God's plan and foreknowledge.

As you can see below, Jesus was already crucified and delivered to be put to death in His foreknowledge. This is why you won't find anything except prophecy about Jesus in the Old Testament.

Revelation 13​
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Acts 2​
23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.​
 
Scripture teaches that the person Jesus Christ is created because he is the wisdom of God and wisdom was created. Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being, but as wisdom in YHWH the Father's foreknowledge. This is why there are no examples of Jesus pre-existing under any identifiable name in all of Scripture.

1 Corinthians 1
22Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Proverbs 8
12I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence,
and I find knowledge and discretion.
22The LORD created me as His first course,
before His works of old.
John 1:3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If Jesus is created, then he is a created thing, but John says Jesus “created all things” and that “without him nothing was made that has been made.”

So this means the creator pre-existed that which is created, and that this singular creator created all “that has been made”, which precludes Jesus being part of the creation.

Secondly, Proverbs uses a lot of poetic imagery, which Proverbs 8 is prime example. It is not a literal meaning, but poetic. Wisdom and prudence dwelling together is evidence of this type of language.

Doug
 
Scripture teaches that the person Jesus Christ is created because he is the wisdom of God and wisdom was created. Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being, but as wisdom in YHWH the Father's foreknowledge. This is why there are no examples of Jesus pre-existing under any identifiable name in all of Scripture.

1 Corinthians 1
22Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Proverbs 8
12I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence,
and I find knowledge and discretion.
22The LORD created me as His first course,
before His works of old.

Wisdom was created? Where did you get that nonsense? God has always been wise and He has always existed, so wisdom was never created - it has always been in existence in God.

Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being? More nonsense. John the Baptist tells us that Jesus existed before him, yet Jesus was born about six months after him. John 1:30. Jesus Himself said in John 17:5: "Now, Father glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

There are no examples of Jesus pre-existing under any identifiable name in all of Scripture? A plain lie. John tells us that He was known as the Word in the beginning and that He was God, and that He became flesh.

Proverbs 8:22 does not use the Hebrew word for "created", which is "bara" -to create, but it uses the word for "possessed", which is "qanah" which means "to get, acquire, or possessed" The Lord possessed wisdom before His works of old - that is before creation.
 
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Doesn't work without it turning into a doctrine about Christians becoming God themselves.
Praise God and Thank You

We do not become "God ourselves" but God will make us One with Christ and with God = John chapter 17

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
 
That isn't a reference to God's exclusive glory since that very same glory is what the apostles received too.
John 17​
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—​

Jesus was referring to the glory he was yet to receive in God's foreknowledge that was then coming into fruition at that present time. Jesus was speaking those words very near the time he was going to be crucified and yet the crucifixion had already happened in a non-literal sense because it is about God's plan and foreknowledge.

As you can see below, Jesus was already crucified and delivered to be put to death in His foreknowledge. This is why you won't find anything except prophecy about Jesus in the Old Testament.

Revelation 13​
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Acts 2​
23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.​
Two different glories mentioned.

The Glory the Word had with the Father before coming to earth.

The glory we now share with the Lord in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was not crucified before His Coming to earth = please read carefully
 
No you got it wrong. In John 1:1 the Greek phrase καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (“and the Word was God”) places theos first for emphasis. This is a well-known structure in Greek grammar to show nature, not identity. It’s not indefinite, it’s qualitative. John is saying the Word is of the same essence as God, but distinct from ton Theon (the Father)." Thus, the Word is godly, but is not God. John 1:3 that says, “All things were made by Him,” but the last-mentioned God in verse 2 is the God the Word was with, The Father. The "Him" in John 1:3, according to standard pronoun antecedent agreement, would mean the Father is the Creator, not the Word.

We can look a bit more past John 1:1-3 to see another example of how the Word is not the Creator. For example, in John 1:9 the True Light is said to have been coming into the world in the present tense after John the Baptist had already been testifying about the True Light. John and Jesus Christ were around the same age, about 30 years old, by the time John was already baptizing. This would place the coming of the True Light into the world during the time that Jesus was already 30 years old, meaning that Jesus is not himself the True Light. Therefore, John 1:10 says "...the world was made through Him..." would rule out the Word or Jesus as being the Creator, but rather the Father.

The account from Genesis 1 doesn't match the account from John 1 since there is no evidence of someone named the Word there in the beginning with God.

1 John 1:1-3, that explicitly identifies the Word using impersonal pronouns "that, which, this, it" means that John didn't believe the Word is literally God, but rather a thing. Hence the Word is godly in John 1:1 as I stated in my previous post. John 1:1. The Word is eternal life and that is a thing as Apostle John said.
16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept [g]from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
 
Also, if Jesus was created, then He, as the Lamb in Revelation 4 and 5 would have joined ALL CREATION (5:13)to bow down and worship Him who sits on the throne - BUT HE DID NOT - Revelation 5:13-14 Instead ALL CREATION bowed down to Him, the Lamb - Jesus - AND TO HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE. So we see without any doubt that Jesus WAS NOT a created being - He was NOT part of God's creation - rather all creation came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
 
@Runningman

Scripture teaches that the person Jesus Christ is created because he is the wisdom of God and wisdom was created. Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being, but as wisdom in YHWH the Father's foreknowledge. This is why there are no examples of Jesus pre-existing under any identifiable name in all of Scripture.

I would agree that the Man Christ Jesus as the Mediator was created, brought forth before the foundation as Per Prov 8:22-24

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 ;When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

But again thats just Him as the Man Mediator, yet He had a Union with God the Word Jn 1:1 which is of the same Eternal Essence with God, so precreation He was still both God and Man. He as the Eternal Word Jn 1:1 He is uncreated and unbegotten !
 
@Runningman



I would agree that the Man Christ Jesus as the Mediator was created, brought forth before the foundation as Per Prov 8:22-24

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 ;When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

But again thats just Him as the Man Mediator, yet He had a Union with God the Word Jn 1:1 which is of the same Eternal Essence with God, so precreation He was still both God and Man. He as the Eternal Word Jn 1:1 He is uncreated and unbegotten !
No you are incorrect.

Precreation He was not man- He became man at a point in time as per John 1:14, Galatians 4:4.

I was wrong assuming you were a trinitarian. You statement is not trinitarian.
 
No you are incorrect.

Precreation He was not man- He became man at a point in time as per John 1:14, Galatians 4:4.

I was wrong assuming you were a trinitarian. You statement is not trinitarian.
Where does those verses say pre-creation he was not a man?
 
He became man at the Incarnation. Christianity 101. Trinity 101, Hypostatic Union 101, sound doctrine 101, Bible truth basics 101. Essential Christian doctrine 101.
It never said He became a Man at the Incarnation, at the Incarnation He came in the form of a servant, He laid aside the Glory He had as the Glorified Mediator b4 the world began Phil 2:5

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Jn 17:5

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Here He is Praying as the Mediator Man, having Glory with the Father b4 the world was.
 
It never said He became a Man at the Incarnation, at the Incarnation He came in the form of a servant, He laid aside the Glory He had as the Glorified Mediator b4 the world began Phil 2:5

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Jn 17:5

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Here He is Praying as the Mediator Man, having Glory with the Father b4 the world was.
You don’t understand the Trinity or the Incarnation. And since you are wrong about God it’s no wonder the rest of your theology is no different. Heresy rolls downhill from the mountain top. And the top of your mountain are numerous errors about God. False teaching rolls downhill into all doctrines.
 
Power and wisdom are not a person. They are things. You walked right into that one. My point stands.

Oh wise teacher..... please have pity on us peons and explain WHY Wisdom was called a woman in Proverbs?

In Proverbs 1:20–33 and Proverbs 8:1—9:12, wisdom is personified as a woman who has much to offer—including “enduring wealth and prosperity” and “life”—to anyone who would heed her words (Proverbs 8:18, 35).

Proverbs 1: 20-23

Wisdom Warns

20 Wisdom shouts in the street,

She lifts her voice in the square;

21 At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;

At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:

22 “How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?

And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing

And fools hate knowledge?

23 “Turn to my reproof,

Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;

I will make my words known to you.

Proverbs 8:1 - 9:12

The Commendation of Wisdom

8 Does not wisdom call,
And understanding lift up her voice?

2 On top of the heights beside the way,
Where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3 Beside the gates, at the opening to the city,
At the entrance of the doors, she cries out:

4 “To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.

5 “O naive ones, understand prudence;
And, O fools, understand wisdom.

6 “Listen, for I will speak noble things;
And the opening of my lips will reveal right things.

7 “For my mouth will utter truth;
And wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 “All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness;
There is nothing crooked or perverted in them.

9 “They are all straightforward to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.

10 “Take my instruction and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choicest gold.

11 “For wisdom is better than jewels;
And all desirable things cannot compare with her.

12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And I find knowledge and discretion.

13 “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverted mouth, I hate.

14 “Counsel is mine and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, power is mine.

15 “By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.

16 “By me princes rule, and nobles,
All who judge rightly.

17 “I love those who love me;
And those who diligently seek me will find me.

18 “Riches and honor are with me,
Enduring wealth and righteousness.

19 “My fruit is better than gold, even pure gold,
And my yield better than choicest silver.

20 “I walk in the way of righteousness,
In the midst of the paths of justice,

21 To endow those who love me with wealth,
That I may fill their treasuries.

22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.

23 “From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.

24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.

25 “Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;

26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.

27 “When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,

28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,

29 When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;

30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,

31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.

32 “Now therefore, O sons, listen to me,
For blessed are they who keep my ways.

33 “Heed instruction and be wise,
And do not neglect it.

34 “Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at my doorposts.

35 “For he who finds me finds life
And obtains favor from the Lord.

36 “But he who sins against me injures himself;
All those who hate me love death.”

Proverbs 9-12

Wisdom’s Invitation
9 Wisdom has built her house,
She has hewn out her seven pillars;

2 She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine;
She has also set her table;

3 She has sent out her maidens, she calls
From the tops of the heights of the city:

4 “Whoever is naive, let him turn in here!”
To him who lacks understanding she says,

5 “Come, eat of my food
And drink of the wine I have mixed.

6 “Forsake your folly and live,
And proceed in the way of understanding.”

7 He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself,
And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself.

8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you,
Reprove a wise man and he will love you.

9 Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser,
Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning.

10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

11 For by me your days will be multiplied,
And years of life will be added to you.

12 If you are wise, you are wise for yourself,
And if you scoff, you alone will bear it.

So ... @Runningman please tell us all how the one that was born a baby boy who grew into a man , and That man was crucified..........
How if , as you say. Scripture teaches that the person Jesus Christ is created because he is the wisdom of God and wisdom was created. Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being, but as wisdom in YHWH the Father's foreknowledge.

And again.... which scriptures say this precisely because IF YOU ARE CORRECT... then the scriptures I provided would call Jesus a she.
 
You don’t understand the Trinity or the Incarnation. And since you are wrong about God it’s no wonder the rest of your theology is no different. Heresy rolls downhill from the mountain top. And the top of your mountain are numerous errors about God. False teaching rolls downhill into all doctrines.
Okay
 
the Gospel of Jesus Christ begins with God becoming human.

So with that in mind, when did God become human? When did eternity kiss humanity? When did He who has no beginning commence His humanity?

It wasn’t when He was born. It wasn’t when all of his organs were developed in the womb. It wasn’t when he first kicked his mother in the womb. It wasn’t at his heartbeat.

No, Jesus became a human at the same stage of human development as the rest of all humanity: conception.

Jesus became a human when his virgin mother’s egg was fertilized by the Holy Spirit. Jesus became a human when he was a fertilized egg — a zygote. In his deity Jesus has no beginning, however, like you and me, he can track his human DNA to the point of conception: from the time he was the size of a poppy seed.

At one point, the most precious person in the universe was the size of a poppy seed. So when people advocate for abortion at any point in pregnancy, remember when God became a human.Christianpost.

Hope this helps !!!


 
Scripture teaches that the person Jesus Christ is created because he is the wisdom of God and wisdom was created. Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being, but as wisdom in YHWH the Father's foreknowledge. This is why there are no examples of Jesus pre-existing under any identifiable name in all of Scripture.

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Meaning Jesus existed before He was born on Earth.

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Jesus existed before the world was created.
 
John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Meaning Jesus existed before He was born on Earth.

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Jesus existed before the world was created.
Amen to the truth !!!
 
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