Jesus broke the law of Moses

[Soyeong]

You just basically contradicted yourself. Which is what most people do when they speak of "laws".

Laws can not define righteousness. They express basic limits to freedoms.

Laws judge the boundaries of acceptable actions at a very rudimentary level. Which is why judges are required to actually administer either punishment or freedom.

Is there any reward for keeping the law?

I ask this so you might understand your contradictions. You don't want to be judged by the law yet see righteousness in the demands of the law.

What does that make you?

Where did I contradict myself? The way to attain a character trait is not the same as what it means to have a character trait. Character traits are not earned as the result of our works, so for example there is no amount of courageous works that someone is requires to have done first in order to become courageous as the result, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith apart from those works, but what it means to be courageous is to be a doer of courageous works, so it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. In 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous. Likewise, everyone who is a doer of courageous works is courageous.

It would be overwhelming to us if God were to exhaustively teach how to be a doer of His righteousness in every possible situation, so the point is to teach us how to be a doer of righteousness by teaching us a limited set of laws that all have that trait in common. If we correctly understand God's righteousness, then it will lead us to take actions that embody it in accordance with God's law even in situations that God's law does not specifically address, but correctly understanding righteousness will never lead us away from following the laws that God gave us to teach us how to be a doer of His righteousness. Good legislators do not given laws for the purpose of limiting our freedoms but for the purpose of enhancing them.

Yes, there is a reward for keeping the law (Colossians 3:23-24).

 

[Soyeong]

Handwritten ordinances held against is in a book or scroll placed beside the ark to be used as a witness against us. Separate from the 10 commandment tablets that were kept INSIDE the ark.

See Deut 31:24-26

24 ¶ When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end,
25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,
26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. (These handwritten ordinances of Moses were nailed to the cross per Col 2.)

God's law is not against us, but rather it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), but what was against us is our disobedience to it. Again, the Bible never uses the Greek word "dogma" to refer to the Law of God, so you are incorrect to interpret Colossians 2:14 as referring to the Law of God.

 

[Jaime]

God's law is not against us, but rather it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), but what was against us is our disobedience to it. Again, the Bible never uses the Greek word "dogma" to refer to the Law of God, so you are incorrect to interpret Colossians 2:14 as referring to the Law of God.

 

[Jaime]

The handwritten ordinances were for a witness against the people of Israel. A standard if you will. A standard to compare with. At least that is what Deut 31 says.

Vs 26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you

Thankfully Moses’’ Book of Law kept beside the ark was nailed to the cross per Colossians 2.
Moses book of the Law was for the porpose that it might be there (beside the ark, separate from the tablets of God’s Moral Law that were IN the ark) FOR a witness against them to effectively testify against the people by way of comparison to the standard.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is my understanding these ordinances, aka the Law of Moses, fleshed out HOW to keep God’s Moral Law. I am open to consider another view.

There is this desire in some Christian circles to accept the "morality of the law of Moses" while rejecting the ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of that same law. There is really no difference between moral and ceremonial ordinances. The ceremonial aspects of the law of Moses was the judgment of morality in adherence to the demands of said ordinances.

 

[Soyeong]

The handwritten ordinances were for a witness against the people of Israel. A standard if you will. A standard to compare with. At least that is what Deut 31 says.

Then please explain how the greatest two commandments are witness against us and why it makes sense to think that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose nailing them to the cross so that we no longer need to do that.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The handwritten ordinances were for a witness against the people of Israel. A standard if you will. A standard to compare with. At least that is what Deut 31 says.

How would they witness if they could be attained? They are certainly a witness to inability. Guilt is essential and that guilt comes from a rudimentary acknowledgement of our inability to keep the very basics of any law.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then please explain how the greatest two commandments are witness against us and why it makes sense to think that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose nailing them to the cross so that we no longer need to do that.

You have NOT loved God with all your heart and all that is within you. You don't even know you. You will discover over and over again throughout your life that you've failed miserably to do so... Even if you think you do now.

Nailing them to the cross was their judgment against you.

The spirit in us lusts to envy. How are you avoiding this with your neighbor?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where did I contradict myself? The way to attain a character trait is not the same as what it means to have a character trait. Character traits are not earned as the result of our works, so for example there is no amount of courageous works that someone is requires to have done first in order to become courageous as the result, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith apart from those works, but what it means to be courageous is to be a doer of courageous works, so it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. In 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous. Likewise, everyone who is a doer of courageous works is courageous.

It would be overwhelming to us if God were to exhaustively teach how to be a doer of His righteousness in every possible situation, so the point is to teach us how to be a doer of righteousness by teaching us a limited set of laws that all have that trait in common. If we correctly understand God's righteousness, then it will lead us to take actions that embody it in accordance with God's law even in situations that God's law does not specifically address, but correctly understanding righteousness will never lead us away from following the laws that God gave us to teach us how to be a doer of His righteousness. Good legislators do not given laws for the purpose of limiting our freedoms but for the purpose of enhancing them.

Yes, there is a reward for keeping the law (Colossians 3:23-24).

You understand your theology better than most. I have told you this before.

How do you judge yourself against your law?

I don't see a reward in Colossians 3. Can you elaborate a little more. Sorry I'm not following.

 

[Jaime]

Then please explain how the greatest two commandments are witness against us and why it makes sense to think that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose nailing them to the cross so that we no longer need to do that.

Were those two commandments part of Moses Book of Laws or simply Jesus’s summary of God’s moral law? He indicated they were the summary of the the moral law. The 10 commandments are ALL about loving God and loving people.

 

[Jaime]

What else would Moses Book of Laws or ordinances be other than a handnook of how to apply and comply with God’s eternal moral law? The details and how to instructions. The Moral Law was a broad overview, Moses’ book of Laws was comprised of the intricate specifics, and ramifications including penalties or remedies.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What else would Moses Book of Laws or ordinances be other than a handnook of how to apply and comply with God’s eternal moral law? The details and how to instructions. The Moral Law was a broad overview, Moses’ book of Laws was comprised of the intricate specifics, and ramifications including penalties or remedies.

History. History is important.

Do you wear blue in the border of your garments?

Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:

This is a perfect contrast. This requirement was given that rebels might be reminded of God.

Does the Holy Spirit remind you of God now or do you require the law of Moses?

Which works BETTER?

 

[Soyeong]

Were those two commandments part of Moses Book of Laws or simply Jesus’s summary of God’s moral law? He indicated they were the summary of the the moral law. The 10 commandments are ALL about loving God and loving people.

You are arguing that everything what was not part of the Mosaic Law was was a witness against us that was nailed to the cross, so you should be able to explain how that is the case for the greatest two commandments or admit your position is flawed. Everything in the Law of Moses is either in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so if you want to make an exception for the greatest two commandments, then you need to also make an exception for the rest of the Law of Moses. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, or idolatry, but we also won't commit favoritism, rape, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Jaime]

No, the Law of Moses (his book of handwritten ordinances) has been nailed to the cross. We are Spirit driven to help us comply with God’s moral law AND written on our hearts.

My whole question was WHAT was nailed to the Cross in Col 2? We see that it was these handwritten ordinances of Moses Book of law first described originally in Deuteronomy 31.

I have no other motive than to establish WHAT was nailed to the cross. The Bible tells us as it usually does in defining things for us.

As I have said over and over again God’s Moral Law still stands. And Moses handwritten book of ordinances that had been held as a witness against us was nailed to the cross. We are done with that book.

The two greatest commandments were a summarynof God’s eternal moral law, articulated by jesus himself.

 

[Soyeong]

You have NOT loved God with all your heart and all that is within you. You don't even know you. You will discover over and over again throughout your life that you've failed miserably to do so... Even if you think you do now.

Nailing them to the cross was their judgment against you.

The spirit in us lusts to envy. How are you avoiding this with your neighbor?

Then you agree that Colossians 2:14 is not speaking about nailing any laws to the Christ's cross, but rather it is speaking about nailing the judgement that is against us for not following God's laws to the cross?

You understand your theology better than most. I have told you this before.

How do you judge yourself against your law?

I don't see a reward in Colossians 3. Can you elaborate a little more. Sorry I'm not following.

There is no point in accusing me of contradicting myself if you can't explain why you think I am doing that.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, doing those works in obedience to God's law has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be good enough to earn our salvation, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

Colossians 3:23-25 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

Something that we inherit is a free gift.

 

[Soyeong]

No, the Law of Moses (his book handwritten ordinances) has been nailed to the cross. We are Spirit driven to help us comply with God’s moral law AND written on our hearts.

My whole question was WHAT was nailed to the Cross in Col 2? We see that it was these handwritten ordinances of Moses Book of law first described originally in Deuteronomy 31. I have no other motive than to establish WHAT was nailed to the cross. The Bible tells us as it usually does in defining things for us.

As I have said over and over again God’s Moral Law still stands. And Moses handwritten book of ordinances that had been held as a witness against us was nailed to the cross. We are done with that book.

Can you give justification for why the Greek word "dogma" should be interpreted as referring to the Law of Moses, especially in light of of the fact that all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142)? Do you you take the position that Jesus went to the cross in order to free us from sin or in order to free us to do what God has revealed to be sin through the Law of Moses?

In Jeremiah 31:33, New Covenant involves God putting the Law of Moses in our minds and writing it on our hearts, and In Ezekiel 36:26-27, It involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His spirit to lead us in obedience to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is God's instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits and God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it, and God's character traits are the basis for morality, which is why everything in the Law of Moses is inherently part of God's Moral Law. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow that can equivalently be described either as walking in the Spirit, walking in obedience to the Moral Law, or as walking in obedience to the Law of Moses.

In Matthew 27:37, they nailed a handwritten ordinance that announced the charge that was against Jesus that he was the King of the Jews, so what they nailed to crosses was the charge that was against them. This is likely how they knew that the people crucified with Jesus were crucified for being thieves. The law against committing theft is not against us, but rather it is for our own good, but what is against someone is the charge of having committed theft. The charge that was against us was the list of sins that we have committed and it was nailed to Christ's cross so that he died to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus did not go to the cross so that we could be free to do what God has revealed to be sin through the Mosaic Law.

 

[Jaime]

Can you give justification for why the Greek word "dogma" should be interpreted as referring to the Law of Moses, especially in light of of the fact that all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142)? Do you you take the position that Jesus went to the cross in order to free us from sin or in order to free us to do what God has revealed to be sin through the Law of Moses?

In Jeremiah 31:33, New Covenant involves God putting the Law of Moses in our minds and writing it on our hearts, and In Ezekiel 36:26-27, It involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His spirit to lead us in obedience to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is God's instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits and God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it, and God's character traits are the basis for morality, which is why everything in the Law of Moses is inherently part of God's Moral Law. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow that can equivalently be described either as walking in the Spirit, walking in obedience to the Moral Law, or as walking in obedience to the Law of Moses.

In Matthew 27:37, they nailed a handwritten ordinance that announced the charge that was against Jesus that he was the King of the Jews, so what they nailed to crosses was the charge that was against them. This is likely how they knew that the people crucified with Jesus were crucified for being thieves. The law against committing theft is not against us, but rather it is for our own good, but what is against someone is the charge of having committed theft. The charge that was against us was the list of sins that we have committed and it was nailed to Christ's cross so that he died to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus did not go to the cross so that we could be free to do what God has revealed to be sin through the Mosaic Law.

 

[Jaime]

I have not addresed dogma. What I have pointed out is what was nailed to the cross as it was described in Colossians 2, but first in Deut 31. It was Moses’ book of handwritten ordinances that were held as a witness against the people. THAT was nailed to the cross and NOT held against us as Christians today. GOOD NEWS in my book anyway. I did not come up with the phrase “handwritten ordinances held as a witness against the people” - it was Moses and then Paul eloquently explained it had been nailed to the cross in Colossians 2. Same words were used in both scriptures.

 

[Wick Stick]

Nowhere does the Bible say either that the Mosaic Covenant was temporary or that it was a punishment for Israel,

That's... wrong. Hebrews 7 declares the dereliction of the Old Covenant explicitly. Jeremiah 31 declares a New Covenant, at the expense of the Old. Amos 5 declares the deficiency of the Levitical priesthood and its sacrifices. Acts 7 calls it a punishment. Ezekiel 37 declares the resurrection of a wholly dead Israel, the resurrected dead no longer subject to the covenant of the Law.

but rather it says that the Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8) and that the Mosaic Law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

Yes, the Law testifies of itself as permanent. But covenants end where there is a death.

The prophets proclaim the death and resurrection of Israel. By dying, Israel is no longer subject to the covenant of Moses. The permanency of the Mosaic covenant is irrelevant to the dead.

Their resurrection doesn't undo it, either. The Law is not bound upon them a second time. Israel's resurrection brings them under the auspices of Abraham's covenant through adoption. The re-born become children of Abraham and his Seed, not party to the covenant of Moses, which was added later because of transgressions.

We can't establish our own righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundmental misunderstanding of the goal of the law.

That's not what I was talking about in regard to establishing one's own righteousness. The problem to which I refer is not establishing oneself as righteous before God... it's about establishing oneself as being more righteous than one's neighbor. Both ancient and modern Pharisees seek to show that they are virtuous, by tearing down those around them.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Mosaic Law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God but it was not based on knowing Him, so the failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as those righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own rather than pursuing it as through righteousness is by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith.

God doesn't change. His standards for conduct don't change. Abraham knew God's standards BEFORE Moses birth. Noah was righteous before that, and even Abel was said to have faith.

Moses covenant wasn't formed to "graciously teach us to how to know God." It was given at a moment when God was literally in the camp with the Israelites. The people were afraid. They had good reason to be - God was angry with them. Moses covenant was formed to prevent the Israelites from being summarily destroyed in that moment, and to hopefully preserve them from the same in the future.

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

As for us today, we are not meant to be party to Moses covenant. We are meant to believe God (like Abraham), which results in us naturally behaving in a lawful way, because again... God doesn't change.

 

[Wick Stick]

It is my understanding these ordinances, aka the Law of Moses, fleshed out HOW to keep God’s Moral Law. I am open to consider another view.

If you're talking about Deuteronomy, the book is largely about enforcing the rules. It is a book of judgment and punishment far more than justice and righteousness. It intends to create a just society by purging the lawless from that society. The key phrase of the book is "put the evil away from among you." It intends to do that by throwing rocks:

17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. ... 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, [being] in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

24:7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.