Jesus broke the law of Moses

[Jaime]

The Oral Torah was a lot of the problem.
while some "traditions" (human-made rules) might conflict with scripture, (yes it was a problem per Jesus) the core Oral Torah is considered God's revealed interpretation, essential for understanding and living out the Written Torah. I. My view is the Pharisees majored in their sometimes perverted Oral traditions rather than the actual written Torah. Jesus spoke of these situations on occasion. Mark 7 always comes to mind. And even how the Jews viewed the gentiles as common or unclean, and Acts 10 was to correct that notion.

 

[Studyman]

Studyman, I don’t know how to communicate any better that God’s perfect moral law remains. The Mosaic Law or what Moses wrote in the book ol
Law beside the ark was LATER polluted by the traditions of men.

That is what I thought, but wanted to make sure through asking questions and making sure of your religious philosophy. Thank you for clarifying.

I have heard of this religious philosophy before, where a man, usually one who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, judges God's Laws, some as "Moral" and some as not "Moral". Apparently, according to this religious tradition, it is promoted that God Commanded Moses to write down HIS Laws that were not "Moral" and directed Moses to place them outside the Ark to be polluted and then when man polluted them, Jesus didn't nail the polluted version of God's Law to the cross, HE nailed God's Actual Law to the cross. Somehow teaching that He only abolished God's Laws that were not "Moral".

And that God's Laws that were placed inside the Ark, are judged by men as "moral" Laws and therefore could not be polluted by man.

I posted God's Word showing that the mainstream religions of this world polluted God's Sabbath, which was inside the Ark, but for some reason, you refused to acknowledge them.

I would plead with you, that you would read all the Inspired by God Words that were spoken on the Day you referenced in Duet. 31. And that you might see that there is no separation shown by God or Moses, between God's Laws that were given to Israel that day. That the philosophy that God's Laws placed inside the Ark were greater, different or "moral", but God's Laws placed outside the Ark are not.

In fact, you will find zero Biblical Support for the philosophy that God created Laws that were "Not Moral" at all. Jesus never made any distinction between them, He actually taught just the opposite.

The two Greatest Commandments, I would argue, were "Both" written by Moses and placed on the outside of the Ark. At the very Least, one of these two were for sure. I asked you about this as well, but for some reason you refused to engage with me on that as well.

For instance the handwashings Jesus corrected the Pharisees in Mark chapter 7 just for one example. These traditions snuck in over centuries. Moses’ elaborations and instructions around God’s moral Laws was likely righteous in the book in the beginning, but became profaned by the traditions of men played out by the Pharisees in spades. I believe I HAVE answered your questions, but if you disagree, we will have to just agree to disagree. I don’t expect to change your mind but am expressing what I believe with some scriptural background. I admit to some typos that I can’t edit after a period of time on this forum, due to fat finger ryping on a 2 inch phone keyboard and poor spellcheck habits.

Yes, you are expressing a philosophy concerning God's Word that you have adopted. I have heard of this philosophy and have found it doesn't align with Scriptures at all. And because I love you as a brother, and care about what is being taught, I replied and asked you relevant questions so as to discern this philosophy whether it be of man or God. I am instructed by God's Law to do this in search of God's Truth. If I am proven to be in error, then I am overjoyed that another deception has been exposed within me. If you are proven to be in error, then I rejoice that a brother has been directed back onto the narrow Path Jesus said we are to strive for.

While I agree that religious men have rejected God's Word, and chose to live by the imaginations of their own mind instead, I don't believe a man can make God's Law "against me", by "polluting it".

Here is what Jesus accused the mainstream preachers of His Time of doing.

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines "the commandments of men". (Not God as "many" promote)

8 For "laying aside" the commandment of God, (Not polluting it, laying it aside and creating another) ye hold the "tradition of men", as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well "ye reject" the commandment of God, that ye "may keep your own tradition".

Jesus most certainly nailed to the cross "handwriting of ordinances" that were against HIM, Paul, the Church of God. This world's religions teach that it was God's Commanded ""handwriting of ordinances" that were against us. You are teaching that it was God's Commanded "handwriting of ordinances" that were against us.

There are many who claim that God created Laws that were "Not Moral".

I don't believe the religious philosophy you are promoting, based on what is actually written in Scriptures which I have posted in the hopes of having an honest discussion about them, not for the purpose of justifying an adopted religious philosophy that I have, but in search of God's Truth.

Let me say this, I would wager that if any of us asked a group of church-going Christians WHAT was nailed to the cross, I believe the vast majority would say God’s Law. If we then asked for clarification, they would say “the 10 commandments,” which I adamantly believe is the wrong answer. The 10 commandments remain. The plethora of explanation and “standards for witness against the people”, the handwritten ordinances in Moses’s lawbook has morphed in much error (because of ever expanding traditions of men) AND was what was nailed to the cross per Colossians 2. If I still make no sense to you, maybe the problem IS me and you need to maybe ignore me and pray for me to come to my senses. I pray that I have been clearer than before.

You are making a distinction between the "Laws of God" written in the Book of the Law, which includes the 10 Commandments, that God, Moses, the Prophets, nor Jesus Himself ever made. Namely that the Laws inside the Ark were "moral" and preserved because while the Laws outside the Ark were not.

As I tried to point out, the 2 Greatest Commandments in the Law, were not part of what you judged in your post as God's "Moral Law". Neither were part of the 10 Commandments, yet according to the Jesus "of the bible" the entire Law and Prophets depended on them.

And lastly, you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that the "handwriting of ordinances" nailed to the cross, were God's Laws placed "OUTSIDE" the Ark.

While it seems clear to me that the "handwriting of ordinances" Jesus nailed to the cross, were the commandments of men they created after setting aside and rejecting God's Laws.

If I am misunderstanding Scriptures, I am happy for you to show me how. I am very interested in your posts, and will continue in another post so as to split it up a little. I look forward to your continued discussion.

 

[Jaime]

That is what I thought, but wanted to make sure through asking questions and making sure of your religious philosophy. Thank you for clarifying.

I have heard of this religious philosophy before, where a man, usually one who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, judges God's Laws, some as "Moral" and some as not "Moral". Apparently, according to this religious tradition, it is promoted that God Commanded Moses to write down HIS Laws that were not "Moral" and directed Moses to place them outside the Ark to be polluted and then when man polluted them, Jesus didn't nail the polluted version of God's Law to the cross, HE nailed God's Actual Law to the cross. Somehow teaching that He only abolished God's Laws that were not "Moral".

And that God's Laws that were placed inside the Ark, are judged by men as "moral" Laws and therefore could not be polluted by man.

I posted God's Word showing that the mainstream religions of this world polluted God's Sabbath, which was inside the Ark, but for some reason, you refused to acknowledge them.

I would plead with you, that you would read all the Inspired by God Words that were spoken on the Day you referenced in Duet. 31. And that you might see that there is no separation shown by God or Moses, between God's Laws that were given to Israel that day. That the philosophy that God's Laws placed inside the Ark were greater, different or "moral", but God's Laws placed outside the Ark are not.

In fact, you will find zero Biblical Support for the philosophy that God created Laws that were "Not Moral" at all. Jesus never made any distinction between them, He actually taught just the opposite.

The two Greatest Commandments, I would argue, were "Both" written by Moses and placed on the outside of the Ark. At the very Least, one of these two were for sure. I asked you about this as well, but for some reason you refused to engage with me on that as well.




Yes, you are expressing a philosophy concerning God's Word that you have adopted. I have heard of this philosophy and have found it doesn't align with Scriptures at all. And because I love you as a brother, and care about what is being taught, I replied and asked you relevant questions so as to discern this philosophy whether it be of man or God. I am instructed by God's Law to do this in search of God's Truth. If I am proven to be in error, then I am overjoyed that another deception has been exposed within me. If you are proven to be in error, then I rejoice that a brother has been directed back onto the narrow Path Jesus said we are to strive for.

While I agree that religious men have rejected God's Word, and chose to live by the imaginations of their own mind instead, I don't believe a man can make God's Law "against me", by "polluting it".

Here is what Jesus accused the mainstream preachers of His Time of doing.

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines "the commandments of men". (Not God as "many" promote)

8 For "laying aside" the commandment of God, (Not polluting it, laying it aside and creating another) ye hold the "tradition of men", as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well "ye reject" the commandment of God, that ye "may keep your own tradition".

Jesus most certainly nailed to the cross "handwriting of ordinances" that were against HIM, Paul, the Church of God. This world's religions teach that it was God's Commanded ""handwriting of ordinances" that were against us. You are teaching that it was God's Commanded "handwriting of ordinances" that were against us.

There are many who claim that God created Laws that were "Not Moral".

I don't believe the religious philosophy you are promoting, based on what is actually written in Scriptures which I have posted in the hopes of having an honest discussion about them, not for the purpose of justifying an adopted religious philosophy that I have, but in search of God's Truth.



You are making a distinction between the "Laws of God" written in the Book of the Law, which includes the 10 Commandments, that God, Moses, the Prophets, nor Jesus Himself ever made. Namely that the Laws inside the Ark were "moral" and preserved because while the Laws outside the Ark were not.

As I tried to point out, the 2 Greatest Commandments in the Law, were not part of what you judged in your post as God's "Moral Law". Neither were part of the 10 Commandments, yet according to the Jesus "of the bible" the entire Law and Prophets depended on them.

And lastly, you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that the "handwriting of ordinances" nailed to the cross, were God's Laws placed "OUTSIDE" the Ark.

While it seems clear to me that the "handwriting of ordinances" Jesus nailed to the cross, were the commandments of men they created after setting aside and rejecting God's Laws.

If I am misunderstanding Scriptures, I am happy for you to show me how. I am very interested in your posts, and will continue in another post so as to split it up a little. I look forward to your continued discussion.

Yes, the polluting came into the Oral Torah which was considered equivalent with scripture. By Jesus’s time it was totally out of control. Other than that it sounds like you totally misunderstand my beliefs. I assume from what you have said that the 10 commandments have been nailed to the cross. Not so. Jesus came to fill it full to it’s intended purpose. Ie, you have heard it say to not mirder, bjtnI say to you do not even harbor angernin your heart. Same with adultery and lust in the heart. He filled back full what the Pharisees had emptied with their “letter of the law only. He restored the SPIRIT. That’s what the Greek word translated fullfill there means per Strongs. see Mathew 5:17. Remember he didn’t come to abolish or annull the Law. The Mosaic Law or handwritten ordinances that were held as a witness against them, YES by nailing THAT to the cross. What remains is the reinvigorated Spirit of the Moral Law. Exactly what Christ did in Mathew 5. Which by the way Christ’s two greatest commands are encompassed by. The 10 commandments were basically about Loving God and our fellow man.

 

[Studyman]

You asked in one of your many responses when did God’s laws become polluted by the traditions of men.

I don't recall ever asking you that, please show me where I did, if I forget it, and thank you.

Here are the questions I asked, that I recall.

"Are you saying that God distinguished between the Laws placed inside the Ark, from the Laws placed outside the Ark?"

"And are you then saying that God's Laws placed inside the Ark were not Polluted by the Traditions of men later on, but the Laws place outside the Ark were?"

"Where does the teaching come from, that mankind "Caused God's Laws" to become a burden worthy of abolishing or annulling?"

"How can a group rebellious, stiff-necked, uncircumcised of heart faithless men, cause any of God's Laws to be worthy of abolishing?"

I can't recall asking the question you stated, but I do recall asking that you kindly answer my relevant questions concerning the philosophy you are promoting here. I look forward to your answers so that we might be united in our understanding, and that if I am looking at the scriptures wrong, I might be corrected.

It occurred over centuries. Similarly when did the Jewish leaders empty out the spirit of the law leaving only the letter of the law that Jesus spoke about in Mathew 5 with his “you have heard it said ……. , but I say to you ……” statements.

So then, when Jesus said "You have heard it said by them of old time", you believe HE was speaking about God, Moses and the Prophets? Wow, I have heard of this religious philosophy as well. Let's put it to the test here by posting what is actually written.

Matt. 5: 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness "shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees", ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That "whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause" shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

In my understanding, Jesus IS the Word of God who became Flesh. So lets go to the Word of God and see what is actually written.

Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Lev. 24: 17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.

OK, here is the Law against Killing, placed inside the Ark that the Pharisees taught.

But wait Jaime, there are other Laws placed outside the Ark, lets review what they say.

Lev. 19: 16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. 17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

So if a man studies Christ's Words here, you will find HIS Teaching written down in the Law and Prophets in every instance in Matt. 5. where HE says, "But I say". Every instance.

Matt. 5: 33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, "Swear not at all"; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Duet. 23: 21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, "thou shalt not slack to pay it": for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. 22 But "if thou shalt forbear to vow", it shall be no sin in thee.

I won't go through them all, but I have, and you will find that Jesus was simply pointing out the Laws that the Pharisees and Scriptures (Them of old time) set aside and rejected, that they might promote "for doctrines the Commandments of men".

Jesus said HIS yoke is easy and His burden is light. Jesus is God, so God’s yoke and burden was easy and light as He originally intended before the Pharisees etc started building fences of obedience and even making up their own traditions like their handwashings that Jesus railed about in Mark 7.

"before the Pharisees etc started building fences of obedience"?

I'm sorry Jaime, I don't know who is teaching you these things and I don't want to offend you, but there is no evidence that the Pharisees were building fences of obedience to God.

Jesus railed against the mainstream preachers of His Time, the Pharisees, in Mark 7 for setting aside God's Laws, and rejecting God's Laws, not polluting them.

In fact the word "pollute" is not mentioned even once in the entire NT. And "polluted" is only mentioned once, when they accused Paul of Polluting the Temple by allowing Faithful Gentiles to hear Moses and the Prophets. Which was against another of their "handwriting of ordinances" of men they taught for doctrines that relegated faithful Non-Jews as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."

I have heard of these philosophies, and I am instructed to prove them and discern them. That is hard to do when our mission is to justify our own philosophies. I am hoping you might consider all that is written, and if you do, you will find that Jesus didn't nail to the cross, God's Laws HE commanded Moses to write down. As they are not against Jesus, Paul or the Church of God even to this day. But the "handwriting or ordinances" of the religious men who ruled over Jerusalem, were against them, and Jesus made a show of them openly, and HE triumphed over them, not God as the philosophy in question implies.

I hope you might consider.

 

[Studyman]

Studyman, I don’t believe what was written on the tablets by the hand of God ever changed. But I do believe the handwritten ordinances Moses transcribed in his book morphed in PRACTICE over the centuries IN HOW the moral law was to be enforced. Jesus said the Pharisees had made their traditions of man a burden on the people. Deut also says God’s law was not difficult (originally) God exorted. Israel to choose blessing or curse. The traditions of men made things MUCH more difficult, contrary to God’s original intent. The stone tablets remained unchanged I presume. Just the HOW to enforce and WHAT ro enforce was morohed in practice.

I appreciate your zeal, but I am more interested in what is actually written that adopting one of the literally thousands of religious philosophies promoted by this world's religions.. And I will not join this world's religions in their judgments against God as creating laws that are "Not Moral" and placing them on the outside of the Ark as a witness against the men who would set them aside or reject them. The 2 greatest Commandments have not changed. The instruction to not hate a brother from the heart has not changed. All of these were placed outside the Ark.

I think you have been tricked into making a distinction between God's Laws that Jesus, nor His Father ever made. That somehow God's Commandment given through Moses mouth, carries less weight than God's commandments given through God's Own mouth, even though all of His Laws came through the Mouth of God.

Consider the implication. "I reject God's Laws that HE gave to Moses to wrote down, because Moses wrote them down".

I'm sorry Jaime, I understand that the other voice in this world will always teach that God's Laws are against a human, even as Eve was convinced. I am still hopeful that you might consider, but it is the "choice" God places before all men, as God explains in Duet. 30.

 

[Studyman]

The Oral Torah was a lot of the problem.
while some "traditions" (human-made rules) might conflict with scripture, (yes it was a problem per Jesus) the core Oral Torah is considered God's revealed interpretation, essential for understanding and living out the Written Torah. I. My view is the Pharisees majored in their sometimes perverted Oral traditions rather than the actual written Torah. Jesus spoke of these situations on occasion. Mark 7 always comes to mind. And even how the Jews viewed the gentiles as common or unclean, and Acts 10 was to correct that notion.

But had the Pharisees believed Moses, they wouldn't have viewed faithful Gentiles as unclean, nor would they have rejected God's Laws, and created their own. They would have accepted the Gentiles as one born as a Jew, a child of Abraham. And they would have been like Zacharias and Simeon who understood this, and you can read this Biblical Truth for yourself in Luke 1&2. What was the written difference between Zacharias, Simeon and the Pharisees? Why did Zacharias and Simeon know the Christ before HE was even born, while the Pharisees didn't know Him even after HE dwelled among them for over 20 years.

Anyway, I have made the case regarding whose "handwriting of ordinances" that were against Jesus, Paul and the Body of Christ that Jesus nailed to the cross. I have asked questions and posted many scriptures in hope of an honest discussion concerning this matter. I can't make someone answer and I can't make someone acknowledge Scriptures.

I can only hope that a seed is planted and that perhaps God will allow it to grow. It is written in the God Inspired Holy Scriptures;

Duet. 4: 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

The entire foundation of this world's religions, "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", is based on the teaching that Jesus is guilty of rejecting God's Instruction above.

Let it be known that I will not join this world's religions in their judgment against the Christ "of the Bible".

 

[Jaime]

But had the Pharisees believed Moses, they wouldn't have viewed faithful Gentiles as unclean, nor would they have rejected God's Laws, and created their own. They would have accepted the Gentiles as one born as a Jew, a child of Abraham. And they would have been like Zacharias and Simeon who understood this, and you can read this Biblical Truth for yourself in Luke 1&2. What was the written difference between Zacharias, Simeon and the Pharisees? Why did Zacharias and Simeon know the Christ before HE was even born, while the Pharisees didn't know Him even after HE dwelled among them for over 20 years.

Anyway, I have made the case regarding whose "handwriting of ordinances" that were against Jesus, Paul and the Body of Christ that Jesus nailed to the cross. I have asked questions and posted many scriptures in hope of an honest discussion concerning this matter. I can't make someone answer and I can't make someone acknowledge Scriptures.

I can only hope that a seed is planted and that perhaps God will allow it to grow. It is written in the God Inspired Holy Scriptures;

Duet. 4: 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

The entire foundation of this world's religions, "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", is based on the teaching that Jesus is guilty of rejecting God's Instruction above.

Let it be known that I will not join this world's religions in their judgment against the Christ "of the Bible".

I am hoping a seed was planted in you too! I have answered you adequately in my opinion. Your answers seem lacking to me also. What else is new? Peace to you!

Studyman, I am flummaxed. I don’t think I said what you thought I said or I misspoke somewhere. I don’t have the energy tonpoir back kver the voluminous posts right now. In the meantime please ignore me and I will ignore you in case you forget.

 

[Jaime]

But had the Pharisees believed Moses, they wouldn't have viewed faithful Gentiles as unclean, nor would they have rejected God's Laws, and created their own. They would have accepted the Gentiles as one born as a Jew, a child of Abraham. And they would have been like Zacharias and Simeon who understood this, and you can read this Biblical Truth for yourself in Luke 1&2. What was the written difference between Zacharias, Simeon and the Pharisees? Why did Zacharias and Simeon know the Christ before HE was even born, while the Pharisees didn't know Him even after HE dwelled among them for over 20 years.

Anyway, I have made the case regarding whose "handwriting of ordinances" that were against Jesus, Paul and the Body of Christ that Jesus nailed to the cross. I have asked questions and posted many scriptures in hope of an honest discussion concerning this matter. I can't make someone answer and I can't make someone acknowledge Scriptures.

I can only hope that a seed is planted and that perhaps God will allow it to grow. It is written in the God Inspired Holy Scriptures;

Duet. 4: 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

The entire foundation of this world's religions, "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", is based on the teaching that Jesus is guilty of rejecting God's Instruction above.

Let it be known that I will not join this world's religions in their judgment against the Christ "of the Bible".

Let it be known I have NOT passed judgement against the Christ of the Bible. You are mistaken. My judgement, as was Christ’s, is against the TRADITIONS OF MEN foisted on the people by the Jewish leaders for centuries. That doesn’t translate into Studyman English for judgement against Christ of the Bible. Let the ignoring begin!

 

[Studyman]

Let it be known I have NOT passed judgement against the Christ of the Bible. You are mistaken. My judgement, as was Christ’s, is against the TRADITIONS OF MEN foisted on the people by the Jewish leaders for centuries.

Here is what your teaching was, that I replied to;

"Thankfully Moses’’ "Book of Law kept beside the ark" was nailed to the cross per Colossians 2."

"Over time the traditions of men caised this Law Moses wrote down ro become a burden worthy "to be annulled by God".

"The Mosaic Law or handwritten ordinances that were held as a witness "against them", YES "by nailing THAT" to the cross."

Now you are saying what my argument was from the beginning, that Jesus didn't nail the hand writing of ordinances given by God, but the "hand writing of ordinances" given by the Pharisees, through "the TRADITIONS OF MEN foisted on the people by the Jewish leaders for centuries".

If this is your belief, why did you post what you posted, that Jesus nailed God's Laws given to Moses to the cross? You can get all offended and point your fingers at me, I'm used to it, but I am surprised given I thought you were different. I still have hope you might engage.

One of the most obvious points to be made, is that the "Witness" Moses spoke of, was against a certain group of people. Here, listen to Moses in the verses you have referenced.

26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. 27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?

29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

I have come to find out that most will not discuss scriptures that can not be used to promote their philosophy, so this too will more than likely be ignored, just as the other scriptures that were posted, but I still hope they are considered.

Nevertheless, it seems prudent to point out that the Laws of God placed on the side of the Ark, were never a "Witness against" Caleb, Joshua, Daniel, David, Shadrack, Malachi, Zacharias, Simeon, even Rehab, or any number of other examples of Faithful men in the Bible. They were most certainly not a "witness" against Jesus, or against Paul, or against the Church of God "Whose refuge is the Lord", at anytime.

The preaching that God's Laws that HE Commanded Moses to write down, were a witness against Jesus is not true. It was a witness against evil, rebellious, stubborn and faithless men, but never a witness against Jesus, or the Church of God HE was the Head of, whose "Refuge was the Lord".

That doesn’t translate into Studyman English for judgement against Christ of the Bible. Let the ignoring begin!

Mock all you want, I can't possibly tell you how surprised I am at your replies. I thought you were different.

The very topic of this thread is a Judgment against Christ. I refuse to accept that you are unable or incapable of seeing that, simply by reading the topic of the thread, just maybe to proud to admit it on a public forum.

But if you were honest, you would have to admit that the very teaching that God's Laws Moses placed in the side of the Ark, to be a "witness against" rebellious, stiff-necked and evil men, were against Jesus and the Church of God, is a Judgment against Jesus, and the Church of God.

Surely I am not the only person who can see this.

 

[Quintus5]

Well, I can’t see how your statement makes sense. Moses hand-wrote the “book of the law,” the handwriting of ordinances, which described sacrifices, offerings, and ceremonial procedures (Deut. 31:24–26; Heb. 9:1,10). Those ordinances were temporary and pointed forward to Jesus, and after He died, the sacrificial system ended (Heb. 10:1–4,10). That is what Colossians 2:14 means.the handwriting of ordinances was taken out of the way at the cross. But the Law written by the finger of Godthe Ten Commandments (Ex. 31:18) was never abolished. Jesus said, “I did not come to destroy the law” and that “till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law” (Matt. 5:17–18). Sin still exists. And what is sin? “Sin is the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4). Which law is John talking about sacrificing lambs at the temple, or the law that forbids idolatry, murder, lying, and coveting? Obviously the moral law. We are all sinners, and every sin can be placed under one of the ten categories in God’s commandments. But praise God through Jesus, we become a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17), and we no longer desire to do the things His law forbids. His commandments reveal His will. These principles did not begin at Sinai they existed “from the beginning.” What law did Adam and Eve break, or Cain violate? They would not be guilty if there were no law (Rom. 4:15). Paul said, “I had not known sin except by the law” (Rom. 7:7) — not the ordinances. Therefore, the Book of the Law was a witness against rebellious people, not against Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly (Heb. 4:15), and Scripture describes His church as those who “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev. 14:12).

 

[Grace ambassador]

Scripture describes His church as those who “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev. 14:12).

Precious friend, only one question: Which commandments should we obey?:

I have decided to follow Jesus?

Amen.

 

[Studyman]

Well, I can’t see how your statement makes sense. Moses hand-wrote the “book of the law,” the handwriting of ordinances, which described sacrifices, offerings, and ceremonial procedures (Deut. 31:24–26; Heb. 9:1,10).

It is true that the Levitical Priesthood Covenant that God made with Levi, a Temporary Covenant, did describe "sacrifices, offerings, and ceremonial procedures" for the remission of sins, that was to be in place, "Till the Prophesied Priest of God should Come. And this Priesthood was Prophesied to change, "after those days" as Hebrews 7 and 8 explains, and the Priesthood Law also changed, given God's Prophesied Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" was not from the tribe of Levi, as is also revealed in Heb. 7.

But to say that this is all that was written in the Book of the Law that was placed outside the Ark, is just not true. Leviticus 19 was part of the Book of the Law, not placed inside the Ark, but outside. The 2nd Greatest Commandment, upon which the Law and Prophets hung on, was written in the Book of the Law placed outside the Ark. It could be argued the the First and greatest Commandment was also not written in stone by God, but was written by Moses at the Command of God.

This distinction between God's Laws written by Himself, are somehow relevant, which God's Laws HE Commanded Moses to write down are not relevant, is a distinction not made anywhere in the Bible.

Those ordinances were temporary and pointed forward to Jesus, and after He died, the sacrificial system ended (Heb. 10:1–4,10).

Yes, the animal sacrifices and offerings for sin pointed towards Jesus, and became old and vanished at His Prophesied arrival. But there is no evidence in Scriptures that support the popular philosophy that God's Instruction in Righteousness, was abolished. That God's Laws Moses was commanded to write down, like"

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

To preach that these Laws were against Paul and the Church of God, and nailed to the Cross by the Lord's Christ, is simply not true, according to what is actually written in Scriptures.

That is what Colossians 2:14 means.the handwriting of ordinances was taken out of the way at the cross. But the Law written by the finger of Godthe Ten Commandments (Ex. 31:18) was never abolished. Jesus said, “I did not come to destroy the law” and that “till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law” (Matt. 5:17–18). Sin still exists. And what is sin? “Sin is the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4). Which law is John talking about sacrificing lambs at the temple, or the law that forbids idolatry, murder, lying, and coveting?

If you hate your brother in your heart, it a sin. If you don't kill your brother, but you hate him in your heart, it is a sin. The popular preaching promoted by this world's religions, that the are no "Moral Laws" which existed "outside the Ark" is a deception. Those who choose to Judge God's Laws as "Moral" or "Not Moral", are not children of God, but Judges of God.

The Laws placed outside the Ark were a witness against the rebellious, stiff-necked men, who Profess to know God, but reject His Judgments and commandments. Therefore, they were not a witness against Caleb, Joshua, Shadrack, Danial, Zacharias, Simeon, John the Baptist, the Church of God and certainly not against Jesus. And yet it was someone's "handwriting of ordinances" that that condemned Jesus to death, and persecuted the Church of God and stoned Peter to death. "We have a Law" they said, and by "OUR Law", HE should die. You guys say it was God's Laws placed outside the Ark that were "not Moral", and that were against Paul and the Body of Christ.

I don't believe that is Paul's message in Colossians 2 when the entire Chapter is considered.

Obviously the moral law. We are all sinners, and every sin can be placed under one of the ten categories in God’s commandments. But praise God through Jesus, we become a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17), and we no longer desire to do the things His law forbids. His commandments reveal His will. These principles did not begin at Sinai they existed “from the beginning.” What law did Adam and Eve break, or Cain violate? They would not be guilty if there were no law (Rom. 4:15). Paul said, “I had not known sin except by the law” (Rom. 7:7) — not the ordinances. Therefore, the Book of the Law was a witness against rebellious people, not against Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly (Heb. 4:15), and Scripture describes His church as those who “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev. 14:12).

I agree with most of your speech here, you are making my point. It was always against God's Law to hate your brother in your heart, or be angry with him without a cause. This was part of God's Law from the very beginning. But there are men trying to convince me that this was one of the Laws of God that were "not moral", because Moses wrote them down, as commanded, and it was placed "outside the Ark" and therefore was nailed to the cross by the Lord's Christ, that was slain from the foundation of the world.

I would not have known sin, had God not told me "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart".

This Law was not a witness against Paul and the Church of God. I refuse to Judge God by teaching others this Law was not "Moral", and there is no evidence anywhere in scriptures, that Jesus nailed this Law of God to His cross.

And yet, this is exactly what is being promoted on this thread.

All I'm saying is what Paul said in Col. 2. "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I have made the case, and only wanted to point out what I see are serious errors in popular religious philosophy.

 

[Diserner]

People change.

People change when they repent.

No repentance, no change.