Jesus broke the law of Moses

[Jaime]

Wivk Stick, i was talking about the following in Deut 31:24-27

24 ¶ When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end,

25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,

26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

27 For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death!

 

[Wick Stick]

Do you also take the position that God doesn't want us to praise Him with song? The problems was not that they were doing something that was never desired by God but rather the problem was that they were not being doers of righteousness and justice.

Have you considered the idea that perhaps...

God didn't DEMAND sacrifices (or songs) because He wanted/needed them, but rather that He ALLOWED the Israelites to do those things, because the Israelites wanted to do them? Offering sacrifices is basically a BBQ. Singing is enjoyable.

I think we can find that in Exodus. First thing the Israelites did when they thought Moses was gone? Offer sacrifices (to an idol). Play some horns. "Hey Aaron, help us do the things all the neighboring countries do."

So, God allowed them to BBQ and sing. Those things aren't inherently bad. They just needed to be directed in the right direction (not at idols).

But afterwards a problem arose, which Hosea 5 addresses. The Israelites somehow convinced themselves that their BBQs and singing had such a profound influence over God, that they could force Him to excuse their sinning.

That, of course, is rubbish.

Hebrews 10:4 It is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

[Wick Stick]

Wivk Stick, i was talking about the following in Deut 31:24-27

24 ¶ When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end,

25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,

26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

27 For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death!

I got that. It's the book of Deuteronomy - the same one found in the days of King Josiah.

Call me Jarrod. My name's not a secret, and we've known each other for a decade or two now.

 

[Studyman]

Jesus used the name of Moses.

Of course HE did, God chose Moses to give men His Laws. I posted His Words for you, but you ignored them. And I posted where Jesus said to observe and do what Moses instructed, but you ignored that too.

You haven't explained why Jesus mentioned Moses instead of "God" or the "Lord".

Now PY, you shouldn't pretend to be so naive. You are here representing the Lord's Christ, having transformed yourself into an apostle of Christ, promoting the teaching that Jesus didn't humble Himself in obedience to God's Laws given through Moses. Do you really expect others to believe that you don't know who gave Moses the Law of the Leper? Or even worse, is it your representation that Jesus didn't know that God chose Moses to give His Laws to Abraham's Children?

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Surely even you must know that Jesus is Speaking to the Laws of God HE gave through Moses.

How far are you willing to go to promote your religious philosophy that Jesus broke God's Laws that HE gave to through Moses?

The "Lord" you're referencing was right there with that leper. Christ was with Moses in the wilderness.

Yes, this is true on both counts. So why then, would you be preaching to the world that God's Laws and Moses Laws are different? And worse yet, even promoting the deception that Jesus broke them?

I am happy to have a discussion about what is actually written. But as with Adam and the rebellious in Israel, all your posts seem to be doing is working to justify your adopted philosophy in spite of the Holy Scriptures.

1Co 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 1Co 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Again, you omit the weightier matters, as they can not be used to further your religion. Here, let me include more Inspired Words of God for the purpose of understanding HIS Truth, not to justify your teaching that Jesus broke His Father's Commandments.

5 But with "many of them" (Not Caleb and Joshua) God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things "were our examples", to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

And according to this same Christ, who became Flesh and Blood, what was the problem with these guys? Why did they fall in the Wilderness?

John. 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

And according to this same Jesus, "of the Bible", why did they, like you, not believe Jesus when HE exposed their error?

John 5: 45 Do not think "that I will accuse you to the Father": there is one that accuseth you, "even Moses", in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, "ye would have believed me": for he wrote of me.

47 But if "ye believe not his writings", how shall ye believe "my words"?

And therefore, I know you will not be persuaded that Jesus didn't break God's Laws, because Jesus Told me so.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If "they hear not Moses and the prophets", neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Studyman]

Have you considered the idea that perhaps...

God didn't DEMAND sacrifices (or songs) because He wanted/needed them, but rather that He ALLOWED the Israelites to do those things, because the Israelites wanted to do them? Offering sacrifices is basically a BBQ. Singing is enjoyable.

I think we can find that in Exodus. First thing the Israelites did when they thought Moses was gone? Offer sacrifices (to an idol). Play some horns. "Hey Aaron, help us do the things all the neighboring countries do."

So, God allowed them to BBQ and sing. Those things aren't inherently bad. They just needed to be directed in the right direction (not at idols).

But afterwards a problem arose, which Hosea 5 addresses. The Israelites somehow convinced themselves that their BBQs and singing had such a profound influence over God, that they could force Him to excuse their sinning.

That, of course, is rubbish.

Hebrews 10:4 It is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Interesting perspective. Didn't the rebellious in Israel also create a high day, a "Feast unto the lord" to honor the god they had just created?

 

[Studyman]

The handwritten ordinances were for a witness against the people of Israel. A standard if you will. A standard to compare with. At least that is what Deut 31 says.

Vs 26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you

Thankfully Moses’’ Book of Law kept beside the ark was nailed to the cross per Colossians 2.
Moses book of the Law was for the porpose that it might be there (beside the ark, separate from the tablets of God’s Moral Law that were IN the ark) FOR a witness against them to effectively testify against the people by way of comparison to the standard.

I understand this is what is taught in the religions of this world God placed you and I in. But Jesus expressly warned us to "Take Heed" of the "many" who will come in His Name. So please engage with me, and answer some questions in search of Biblical Truth.

Whose "handwriting of ordinances" caused the Pharisees to persecute the Church of God and kill those who were sent to them?

Whose "handwriting of ordinances" condemned Jesus, Stephen and the Prophets before them, to death? Whose "handwriting of ordinances" relegated Gentiles like Rehab, as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"?

In Col. 2, Paul just got through warning us:

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest "any man" spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the "tradition of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ.

There is no indication anywhere in Col 2 or Ephesians 2 where it was God's "handwriting of ordinances" that led men astray, or were against them or was nailed to the cross. According to this world's religions, it was "God" who spoiled men through philosophy and vain deceit, as they preach it was God's "handwriting of ordinances" we are to beware of. Paul isn't saying that at all.

Even a man's spiritual death, has a purpose that is for the good of men. As Paul teaches;

Rom. 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. (That means "NO!) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (And therefore we might strive against it)

Consider please, what was actually written in Col. 2;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers,

If it was God's "handwriting of ordinances", then the "principalities and powers", Jesus spoiled was the Word of God. How can that be, given Jesus Himself is the Word of God who became Flesh?

he made a shew of them openly,

If it was God's "handwriting of ordinances", then HE exposed HIS Father as a liar, who created Laws HE Himself said was for a man's well being, but were actually against men, even His Own Son who was murdered by men who you are teaching, was obeying God's "handwriting of ordinances". How can that be, given Jesus said the Pharisees taught for doctrines the commandments of men?

triumphing over them in it.

If it was God's "handwriting of ordinances", then you are preaching that Jesus Triumphed over Father on the Cross. How can this be given Jesus Himself said His Father was greater than HE?

And no doubt, there may very well be another Jesus promoted by the religions of this world, that behaved in such a manner. But clearly it wasn't the Jesus of the Bible, and Paul is not teaching it was in Col. 2 or Ephesians 2.

My hope is that you might consider what is actually written, vs. the implications of a widely popular religious philosophy promoted by this world's religions that Jesus Himself warned about.

 

[Studyman]

If you're talking about Deuteronomy, the book is largely about enforcing the rules. It is a book of judgment and punishment far more than justice and righteousness. It intends to create a just society by purging the lawless from that society. The key phrase of the book is "put the evil away from among you." It intends to do that by throwing rocks:

17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. ... 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, [being] in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

24:7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

What if the Law is Spiritual, and the Kingdom of God dwells in me, and the Temple of God is my mind. It is written that I do not fight against flesh and blood, "but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places". Would these powers not be "thoughts"?

Since we are supposed to become Kings and Priests, am I not then the ruler of my own Kingdom, and the people in this kingdom "my thoughts"? Consider the Holy Scriptures impact on my Kingdom. If I submit to God's Laws, and rule my thoughts as HE instructs, then when, for instance, a thought about let's say an adulterous thought sneaks into my mind. It's a rebellious, evil and sinful thought. What am I to do?

Duet. 17: 2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded (Unrighteous thought) 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel (Prove all things) 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. 6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil (Unrighteous thought) away from among you.

Isn't this how Jesus and the Faithful throughout the Bible remained Faithful to God?

1 Sam. 15: 1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: (Righteous Thoughts) now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.

2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, (Unrighteous Thoughts) and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; "but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***."

Destroy every part of the adulterous thought, don't hide another woman's picture under your tent, don't save any part of the thought, destroy them completely.

This is the Battle Paul speaks to, in my understanding. When a man considers that the Law and Prophets were written for our admonition, it takes a whole different meaning.

2 Kings 13: 1 In the three and twentieth year of Joash the son of Ahaziah king of Judah Jehoahaz the son of Jehu began to reign over Israel in Samaria, and reigned seventeen years. 2 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, and followed the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin; he departed not therefrom.

This king harbored and preserved lawless and rebellious principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places"

2 Kings 15:1 In the twenty and seventh year of Jeroboam king of Israel began Azariah son of Amaziah king of Judah to reign. 2 Sixteen years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned two and fifty years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jecholiah of Jerusalem. 3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father Amaziah had done;

This king battled against "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".

Anyway, I hope you might consider these things.

 

[Jaime]

I understand this is what is taught in the religions of this world God placed you and I in. But Jesus expressly warned us to "Take Heed" of the "many" who will come in His Name. So please engage with me, and answer some questions in search of Biblical Truth.

Whose "handwriting of ordinances" caused the Pharisees to persecute the Church of God and kill those who were sent to them?

Whose "handwriting of ordinances" condemned Jesus, Stephen and the Prophets before them, to death? Whose "handwriting of ordinances" relegated Gentiles like Rehab, as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"?

In Col. 2, Paul just got through warning us:

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest "any man" spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the "tradition of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ.

There is no indication anywhere in Col 2 or Ephesians 2 where it was God's "handwriting of ordinances" that led men astray, or were against them or was nailed to the cross. According to this world's religions, it was "God" who spoiled men through philosophy and vain deceit, as they preach it was God's "handwriting of ordinances" we are to beware of. Paul isn't saying that at all.

Even a man's spiritual death, has a purpose that is for the good of men. As Paul teaches;

Rom. 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. (That means "NO!) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (And therefore we might strive against it)

Consider please, what was actually written in Col. 2;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers,

If it was God's "handwriting of ordinances", then the "principalities and powers", Jesus spoiled was the Word of God. How can that be, given Jesus Himself is the Word of God who became Flesh?

he made a shew of them openly,

If it was God's "handwriting of ordinances", then HE exposed HIS Father as a liar, who created Laws HE Himself said was for a man's well being, but were actually against men, even His Own Son who was murdered by men who you are teaching, was obeying God's "handwriting of ordinances". How can that be, given Jesus said the Pharisees taught for doctrines the commandments of men?

triumphing over them in it.

If it was God's "handwriting of ordinances", then you are preaching that Jesus Triumphed over Father on the Cross. How can this be given Jesus Himself said His Father was greater than HE?

And no doubt, there may very well be another Jesus promoted by the religions of this world, that behaved in such a manner. But clearly it wasn't the Jesus of the Bible, and Paul is not teaching it was in Col. 2 or Ephesians 2.

My hope is that you might consider what is actually written, vs. the implications of a widely popular religious philosophy promoted by this world's religions that Jesus Himself warned about.

The Pharisee’s problem was not God’s Law or the handwritten ordinances in Moses’s Book of Laws, BUT as Jesus said several times, they were relying more and more on their traditions of men and their substituting that for God’s Law. Ie their handwashings they railed on the disciples about in Mark chapter 7. Not to mention just their wanton desire for hanging on to their power and position. God even had to take remedial action with Peter concerning his misunderstanding about the gentiles in Acts 10 due to these traditions of men fousted on the people by over zealous Jewish leaders.

 

[Wick Stick]

What if the Law is Spiritual, and the Kingdom of God dwells in me, and the Temple of God is my mind. It is written that I do not fight against flesh and blood, "but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places". Would these powers not be "thoughts"?

Since we are supposed to become Kings and Priests, am I not then the ruler of my own Kingdom, and the people in this kingdom "my thoughts"? Consider the Holy Scriptures impact on my Kingdom. If I submit to God's Laws, and rule my thoughts as HE instructs, then when, for instance, a thought about let's say an adulterous thought sneaks into my mind. It's a rebellious, evil and sinful thought. What am I to do?

Duet. 17: 2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded (Unrighteous thought) 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel (Prove all things) 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. 6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil (Unrighteous thought) away from among you.

Isn't this how Jesus and the Faithful throughout the Bible remained Faithful to God?

1 Sam. 15: 1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: (Righteous Thoughts) now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.

2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, (Unrighteous Thoughts) and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; "but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***."

Destroy every part of the adulterous thought, don't hide another woman's picture under your tent, don't save any part of the thought, destroy them completely.

This is the Battle Paul speaks to, in my understanding. When a man considers that the Law and Prophets were written for our admonition, it takes a whole different meaning.

2 Kings 13: 1 In the three and twentieth year of Joash the son of Ahaziah king of Judah Jehoahaz the son of Jehu began to reign over Israel in Samaria, and reigned seventeen years. 2 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, and followed the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin; he departed not therefrom.

This king harbored and preserved lawless and rebellious principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places"

2 Kings 15:1 In the twenty and seventh year of Jeroboam king of Israel began Azariah son of Amaziah king of Judah to reign. 2 Sixteen years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned two and fifty years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jecholiah of Jerusalem. 3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father Amaziah had done;

This king battled against "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".

Anyway, I hope you might consider these things.

Absolutely we can and should have a supernal understanding/application of the Law. The New Testament certainly teaches us to do so.

However, we shouldn't use that to negate the original, literal meaning of the text.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. We can have the literal meaning AND still apply it spiritually.

 

[Studyman]

The Pharisee’s problem was not God’s Law or the handwritten ordinances in Moses’s Book of Laws, BUT as Jesus said several times, they were relying more and more on their traditions of men and their substituting that for God’s Law. Ie their handwashings they railed on the disciples about in Mark chapter 7. Not to mention just their wanton desire for hanging on to their power and position. God even had to take remedial action with Peter concerning his misunderstanding about the gentiles in Acts 10 due to these traditions of men fousted on the people by over zealous Jewish leaders.

The point of my post is that Paul isn't teaching that it was God's Laws HE gave to Moses to write down, that were the "handwriting of ordinances" that Jesus nailed to the cross, as none of these ordinances were against Jesus, Paul or the Body of Christ.

It wasn't Moses writing's or God's Words Moses wrote down, that led men astray, or that were "Against Jesus, Paul and the Body of Christ". It was the "heavy burdens and grievous to be borne", that the rulers in Jerusalem laid "on men's shoulders" for centuries that the Disciples nor their fathers could bear. These were the traditions, philosophies and commandments of Men that Paul is warning about. Jesus exposed the mainstream religion of His Time. He didn't expose His Father or Moses, who His Father sent. This is why I asked you the questions I asked, as the answer to the questions will show this.

 

[Jaime]

The point of my post is that Paul isn't teaching that it was God's Laws HE gave to Moses to write down, that were the "handwriting of ordinances" that Jesus nailed to the cross, as none of these ordinances were against Jesus, Paul or the Body of Christ.

It wasn't Moses writing's or God's Words Moses wrote down, that led men astray, or that were "Against Jesus, Paul and the Body of Christ". It was the "heavy burdens and grievous to be borne", that the rulers in Jerusalem laid "on men's shoulders" for centuries that the Disciples nor their fathers could bear. These were the traditions, philosophies and commandments of Men that Paul is warning about. Jesus exposed the mainstream religion of His Time. He didn't expose His Father or Moses, who His Father sent. This is why I asked you the questions I asked, as the answer to the questions will show this.

At the time Moses wrote them down and put them BESIDE ark, they had not been polluted by the traditions of men. They of course were later on. Moses wrote down what God had told him, to keep as a testimony or a standard. Over time the traditions of men caised this Law Moses wrote down ro become a burden worthy to be annulled by God. Moses did not write not originally in their final repulsive state as they were nailed to the cross per Col 2. This is why I answered as I did and do now. Ask pretty much any Christian what was nailed to the cross and they will be wrong according to Col 2 and previously defined by Deut 31.

 

[Studyman]

At the time Moses wrote them down and put them BESIDE ark, they had not been polluted by the traditions of men. They of course were later on. Moses wrote down what God had told him, to keep as a testimony or a standard. Over time the traditions of men caised this Law Moses wrote down ro become a burden worthy to be annulled by God.

I really appreciate your study. But I wish you would have answered my questions showing me in God's Laws, placed either inside or outside the Ark, that were against Jesus, Paul and the body of Christ. They were relevant questions.

I have some more for you as well. Are you saying that God distinguished between the Laws placed inside the Ark, from the Laws placed outside the Ark? Remember, the 1st Greatest Commandment in the Law was placed inside the Ark, while the 2nd Greatest Commandment in the Law was placed outside the Ark.

And are you then saying that God's Laws placed inside the Ark were not Polluted by the Traditions of men later on, but the Laws place outside the Ark were? I'm sorry my friend, but I just don't see how this philosophy is supported by Scriptures.

Ez. 20: 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

God's Judgments were written, according to the command of God, by Moses and placed outside the Ark. God's Sabbath Commandment, was written by the Finger of God and placed inside the Ark.

13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Where does the teaching come from, that mankind "Caused God's Laws" to become a burden worthy of abolishing or annulling? Where do you get this teaching that the Laws of God placed outside the Ark were polluted by man's traditions, but the Laws placed inside the Ark, including God's Sabbath commandment, were not polluted by mans traditions?

Consider the implication of your post here, and I don't mean this in anyway as insulting, rather, as a honest question in search of understanding your post.

How can a group rebellious, stiff-necked, uncircumcised of heart faithless men, cause any of God's Laws to be worthy of abolishing?

This is why I asked you to show me the "Commandment contained in ordinances", of which all are recorded, that were against Jesus, Paul and the Church of God, that condemned any of them to be murdered or persecuted by children of the devil.

I hope you might honor me with an answer to these questions. Including the implication of this philosophy concerning Jesus who you imply triumphed over God, and made a show of God's Laws openly.

The Laws placed outside the Ark were to be a witness against rebellious disobedient men, not a witness against God.

Moses did not write not originally in their final repulsive state as they were nailed to the cross per Col 2. This is why I answered as I did and do now. Ask pretty much any Christian what was nailed to the cross and they will be wrong according to Col 2 and previously defined by Deut 31.

In all respect, and I mean that with all my heart, I don't understand what you are saying here.

What was nailed to the cross? God's Laws HE commanded Moses to write down? Or the Traditions and commandments of men the Pharisees taught for Commandments, that condemned and persecuted God's Church for centuries?

 

[Quintus5]

"Exo 16:29 See! The LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.”

Oh, shades of Robert Breaker!! God was telling them not to go out to gather manna on the 7th day, not to not go anywhere.
You took this clean out of context.

As for breaking the Sabbath by healing,--that is nowhere. After the Law and the prophets, many rules were created and put into for including the tradition of corban.Those were pharisaical, not from God.

If Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath (again, He created it) then what day is the Lord's day?

You folk can answer that any way you want to, but I have not idea why you raise such a stink about Sabbath.
BTW, the law of Moses was the ceremonial law,-God's Law is eternal. Satan broke it, Adam broke it--we all break it. Do you guys really think that once you are saved, you are free of it? Then look at the 10, and tell me which ones you have no problem breaking because they are gone. Jesus magnified the Law. He expanded the definition of murder and adultery--He didnt get rid of those when He died.

 

[Studyman]

Absolutely we can and should have a supernal understanding/application of the Law. The New Testament certainly teaches us to do so.

However, we shouldn't use that to negate the original, literal meaning of the text.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. We can have the literal meaning AND still apply it spiritually.

I think so as well. But it is the Literal meaning that the deceiver uses to turn people away from God, not the Spiritual, in my experience. How many times have I hear a preacher, "who comes in Christ's Name", reject the Law and Prophets because of the "Literal" command against the Amalekites? I can't count them all. I agree that there are certainly "literal" meanings. Don't work on the Sabbath. Don't hate your brother in your heart. Don't look on the nakedness of your brothers wife, etc. Don't starve the Oxen you use to tread out the grain. But if you don't partake of the battle against wicked thoughts, all these literal meanings mean nothing.

And Jesus did say:

John 6: 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

So what is the Literal meaning Jesus intended for me here, in order to have life in me? Clearly "the Law if Spiritual".

I do thank you for engaging, and for sharing your perspective. These are good discussions to have among men, in this cursed and evil world.

 

[Studyman]

Oh, shades of Robert Breaker!! God was telling them not to go out to gather manna on the 7th day, not to not go anywhere.
You took this clean out of context.

And what is the Place of a faithful believer on God's Holy Sabbath, but in fellowship with the Christ "of the Bible"

As for breaking the Sabbath by healing,--that is nowhere. After the Law and the prophets, many rules were created and put into for including the tradition of corban. Those were pharisaical, not from God.

If Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath (again, He created it) then what day is the Lord's day?

Jesus did accuse the mainstream religions of the world HE was born into, who professed to know God, of teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, not God.

And truly I agree with you that the Christ knew what Day was the Lord's Day, when the heavens and the earth were created by Him and For Him.

You folk can answer that any way you want to, but I have not idea why you raise such a stink about Sabbath.
BTW, the law of Moses was the ceremonial law,-God's Law is eternal. Satan broke it, Adam broke it--we all break it. Do you guys really think that once you are saved, you are free of it? Then look at the 10, and tell me which ones you have no problem breaking because they are gone. Jesus magnified the Law. He expanded the definition of murder and adultery--He didnt get rid of those when He died.

This is true, from the very beginning there are voices in the world God placed us in, that preach to whoever will listen to them;

"Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (reject the commandment) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It's the same ole deception. Since my youth I have been taught that "Yielding oneself" a servant to obey God's Laws, will keep one blind and ignorant, held by the Yoke of Bondage God placed on all those men who placed their Trust in God. Only by listening to the Many "Who come in Christ's Name", can a man be free from God's Beggarly Elements.

I advocate that a man should "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" who created the Law and Prophets for our admonition in the first place.

 

[Jaime]

I really appreciate your study. But I wish you would have answered my questions showing me in God's Laws, placed either inside or outside the Ark, that were against Jesus, Paul and the body of Christ. They were relevant questions.

I have some more for you as well. Are you saying that God distinguished between the Laws placed inside the Ark, from the Laws placed outside the Ark? Remember, the 1st Greatest Commandment in the Law was placed inside the Ark, while the 2nd Greatest Commandment in the Law was placed outside the Ark.

And are you then saying that God's Laws placed inside the Ark were not Polluted by the Traditions of men later on, but the Laws place outside the Ark were? I'm sorry my friend, but I just don't see how this philosophy is supported by Scriptures.

Ez. 20: 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

God's Judgments were written, according to the command of God, by Moses and placed outside the Ark. God's Sabbath Commandment, was written by the Finger of God and placed inside the Ark.

13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Where does the teaching come from, that mankind "Caused God's Laws" to become a burden worthy of abolishing or annulling? Where do you get this teaching that the Laws of God placed outside the Ark were polluted by man's traditions, but the Laws placed inside the Ark, including God's Sabbath commandment, were not polluted by mans traditions?

Consider the implication of your post here, and I don't mean this in anyway as insulting, rather, as a honest question in search of understanding your post.

How can a group rebellious, stiff-necked, uncircumcised of heart faithless men, cause any of God's Laws to be worthy of abolishing?

This is why I asked you to show me the "Commandment contained in ordinances", of which all are recorded, that were against Jesus, Paul and the Church of God, that condemned any of them to be murdered or persecuted by children of the devil.

I hope you might honor me with an answer to these questions. Including the implication of this philosophy concerning Jesus who you imply triumphed over God, and made a show of God's Laws openly.

The Laws placed outside the Ark were to be a witness against rebellious disobedient men, not a witness against God.



In all respect, and I mean that with all my heart, I don't understand what you are saying here.

What was nailed to the cross? God's Laws HE commanded Moses to write down? Or the Traditions and commandments of men the Pharisees taught for Commandments, that condemned and persecuted God's Church for centuries?

Studyman, I don’t know how to communicate any better that God’s perfect moral law remains. The Mosaic Law or what Moses wrote in the book ol
Law beside the ark was LATER polluted by the traditions of men. For instance the handwashings Jesus corrected the Pharisees in Mark chapter 7 just for one example. These traditions snuck in over centuries. Moses’ elaborations and instructions around God’s moral Laws was likely righteous in the book in the beginning, but became profaned by the traditions of men played out by the Pharisees in spades. I believe I HAVE answered your questions, but if you disagree, we will have to just agree to disagree. I don’t expect to change your mind but am expressing what I believe with some scriptural background. I admit to some typos that I can’t edit after a period of time on this forum, due to fat finger ryping on a 2 inch phone keyboard and poor spellcheck habits.

Let me say this, I would wager that if any of us asked a group of church-going Christians WHAT was nailed to the cross, I believe the vast majority would say God’s Law. If we then asked for clarification, they would say “the 10 commandments,” which I adamantly believe is the wrong answer. The 10 commandments remain. The plethora of explanation and “standards for witness against the people”, the handwritten ordinances in Moses’s lawbook has morphed in much error (because of ever expanding traditions of men) AND was what was nailed to the cross per Colossians 2. If I still make no sense to you, maybe the problem IS me and you need to maybe ignore me and pray for me to come to my senses. I pray that I have been clearer than before.

You asked in one of your many responses when did God’s laws become polluted by the traditions of men. It occurred over centuries. Similarly when did the Jewish leaders empty out the spirit of the law leaving only the letter of the law that Jesus spoke about in Mathew 5 with his “you have heard it said ……. , but I say to you ……” statements. Jesus said HIS yoke is easy and His burden is light. Jesus is God, so God’s yoke and burden was easy and light as He originally intended before the Pharisees etc started building fences of obedience and even making up their own traditions like their handwashings that Jesus railed about in Mark 7.

 

[Wick Stick]

Studyman, I don’t know how to communicate any better that God’s perfect moral law remains. The Mosaic Law or what Moses wrote in the book ol Law beside the ark was LATER polluted by the traditions of men.

Deuteronomy implies that book was... Deuteronomy. Do you think it something different?

 

[Jaime]

Deuteronomy implies that book was... Deuteronomy. Do you think it something different?

 

[Jaime]

The book Moses wrote in was kept BESIDE the Ark. The 10 commandment tablets was kept inside the ark. The book of handwritten ordances were kept as a witness against the people and was nailed to the cross. That’s all I’m saying. If the book was also called the book of Deuteronomy, so be it. God’s moral law stands.

 

[Jaime]

Studyman, I don’t believe what was written on the tablets by the hand of God ever changed. But I do believe the handwritten ordinances Moses transcribed in his book morphed in PRACTICE over the centuries IN HOW the moral law was to be enforced. Jesus said the Pharisees had made their traditions of man a burden on the people. Deut also says God’s law was not difficult (originally) God exorted. Israel to choose blessing or curse. The traditions of men made things MUCH more difficult, contrary to God’s original intent. The stone tablets remained unchanged I presume. Just the HOW to enforce and WHAT ro enforce was morohed in practice.