Is the word all ever used in a restricted sense ?

[TibiasDad]

False teaching nowhere found in scripture. Many die in their sins Jn 8:24

The question is why; Paul teaches that it was only because of unbelief that we are not saved.

Rom 11:22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

The only reason that Israel, and by extension, humanity in general, are not saved is because they refuse to believe.
Not because they are decreed to be reprobates; not because God is unwilling or unable to do so, but solely because they will not believe. (Not that they are incapable, but rather that they refuse to believe!)

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

The question is why; Paul teaches that it was only because of unbelief that we are not saved.

Rom 11:22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

The only reason that Israel, and by extension, humanity in general, are not saved is because they refuse to believe.
Not because they are decreed to be reprobates; not because God is unwilling or unable to do so, but solely because they will not believe. (Not that they are incapable, but rather that they refuse to believe!)

Doug

If Christ didnt die for you you will die in unbelief and your other sins. If He did die for you, even though you may be in unbelief in 1999, you wont be in 2025 when He God saves you and gives you faith. So if a person doesnt persist in unbelief, its because they were elect . All the elect dont believe at the same times, like Paul, he didnt believe at the same time as John Peter and James, so he didnt persist in unbelief as he once did 1 Tim 1:13-14

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

See that ? The elect get mercy for their unbelief

 

[atpollard]

The only thing that can sin in the whole world is human kind; so Christ is the atonement for every sin committed by humanity everywhere in the entire world.


Doug

How is your Greek and Hebrew?
[I will not be challenging you on it, my expertise would fit on a postage stamp]

The question is this:

"Is an atonement that does not achieve forgiveness/reconciliation really an 'atonement' as the original word means it?"

while @brightfame52 can be abrasive, it is not incorrect to point out that most people do nor receive "salvation", so it is worth asking about the actual definition of "atonement" in scripture.

Your THEOLOGY clearly means "offer" and my "Particular Baptist" THEOLOGY clearly means "effective", but both are based on ENGLISH translations and writers rather than the original words that "God breathed" [into Hebrew and Greek].

 

[TibiasDad]

How is your Greek and Hebrew?
[I will not be challenging you on it, my expertise would fit on a postage stamp]

I have taken Greek in my ministerial training and have continued to study it over the last 40+ years of ministry. I have not studied Hebrew, but have Jewish friends who understand the language and can help me if I have questions.

The question is this:

"Is an atonement that does not achieve forgiveness/reconciliation really an 'atonement' as the original word means it?"

while @brightfame52 can be abrasive, it is not incorrect to point out that most people do nor receive "salvation", so it is worth asking about the actual definition of "atonement" in scripture.

Your THEOLOGY clearly means "offer" and my "Particular Baptist" THEOLOGY clearly means "effective", but both are based on ENGLISH translations and writers rather than the original words that "God breathed" [into Hebrew and Greek].

The atonement accomplished the reconciliation of God to the world.

2 Cor 5:18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
The atonement accomplished exactly what it was supposed to, it reconciled God to the world, that meaning mankind as a whole. This allows God to be gracious to us instead of wrathful. That’s why we are called to preach reconciliation with God to all people, the Gospel is that God offers forgiveness instead of wrath. Not one person is outside the possibility of forgiveness because of Christ’s death and resurrection. Salvation is effected by God’s gracious offering us forgiveness (through and because of Christ’s reconciliation) and by our believing that God will do what he promised in the Gospel.

God does not forgive until we believe and express that belief by repentance. This was Peter’s message to the Jews on Pentecost
““Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:38


Peter’s response is not hard to understand: Those hearing the gospel must first “repent” in order that their sins may be forgiven and so they might receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which means in effect, being saved.

Repentance precedes forgiveness and salvation, which completes the reconciliation process.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

I have taken Greek in my ministerial training and have continued to study it over the last 40+ years of ministry. I have not studied Hebrew, but have Jewish friends who understand the language and can help me if I have questions.



The atonement accomplished the reconciliation of God to the world.

2 Cor 5:18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
The atonement accomplished exactly what it was supposed to, it reconciled God to the world, that meaning mankind as a whole. This allows God to be gracious to us instead of wrathful. That’s why we are called to preach reconciliation with God to all people, the Gospel is that God offers forgiveness instead of wrath. Not one person is outside the possibility of forgiveness because of Christ’s death and resurrection. Salvation is effected by God’s gracious offering us forgiveness (through and because of Christ’s reconciliation) and by our believing that God will do what he promised in the Gospel.

God does not forgive until we believe and express that belief by repentance. This was Peter’s message to the Jews on Pentecost
““Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:38


Peter’s response is not hard to understand: Those hearing the gospel must first “repent” in order that their sins may be forgiven and so they might receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which means in effect, being saved.

Repentance precedes forgiveness and salvation, which completes the reconciliation process.


Doug

Nothing about any conditions there, thats works salvation, condemned by the Cross of Christ

 

[atpollard]

The atonement accomplished the reconciliation of God to the world.

2 Cor 5:18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
The atonement accomplished exactly what it was supposed to, it reconciled God to the world, that meaning mankind as a whole.

Which is it? (I am confused.)

• Did the atonement "ACCOMPLISHED (past tense) the reconciliation of God to the world"?
  • What is "the world", given the scriptures that you quote next?
  • Why is that NOT universalism if it ACCOMPLISHED RECONCILIATION?
• Which is it? [how can it be both ACCOMPLISHED, PAST and UNIVERSAL] given:
  • "God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (v.18 past)
  • "gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (v.18 present ongoing work of reconciliation)
  • "was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation" (v.19 God completed and we are merely announcing its completion)
  • "We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God." (v.20) indicates they still need reconciliation!)
• How is God reconciled to mankind as a whole but not to any of its individual members until later?
  • What sort of an ATONEMENT is that?
  • What sort of a RECONCILIATION is that?
  • Is that not what LIMITED ATONEMENT advocates decry UNLIMITED ATONEMENT for ... sufficient for all and effective for none!
  • What have I misunderstood in the SCRIPTURE?

Back to the unanswered question:

"Is an atonement that does not achieve forgiveness/reconciliation really an 'atonement' as the original word means it?"

or the new alternative form ...

"Is an atonement that achieves true forgiveness/reconciliation for ALL (the whole world) not 'universalism'?"

 

[atpollard]

God does not forgive until we believe and express that belief by repentance. This was Peter’s message to the Jews on Pentecost
““Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:38

Repentance precedes forgiveness and salvation, which completes the reconciliation process.

Doug

Then in what sense was RECONCILIATION already ACHIEVED ... especially for the "whole world" of "all men without exception" (the MAJORITY of which will never repent according to Scripture)?

 

[TibiasDad]

Did the atonement "ACCOMPLISHED (past tense) the reconciliation of God to the world"?

Yes, Christ’s death now allows God to look with favor, “not counting men’s sins against them”. God now has the means to reconcile the world to himself. He can now forgive as an act of grace.

This a finished action that allows for the next step to happen, namely, salvation upon belief in the gospel.

There is no sin that cannot be forgiven (save for the unpardonable sin) for Christ sacrifice is sufficient for the sins of all mankind, therefore, “all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God…”

Doug

 

[Johann]

Yes, Christ’s death now allows God to look with favor, “not counting men’s sins against them”. God now has the means to reconcile the world to himself. He can now forgive as an act of grace.

This a finished action that allows for the next step to happen, namely, salvation upon belief in the gospel.

There is no sin that cannot be forgiven (save for the unpardonable sin) for Christ sacrifice is sufficient for the sins of all mankind, therefore, “all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God…”

Doug

Couldn't resist brother.

Johann.

 

[TibiasDad]

Is an atonement that does not achieve forgiveness/reconciliation really an 'atonement' as the original word means it?"

1) The atonement does not “forgive” anything, it only allows God to forgive those who believe in his promises.

2) God has every right to set the parameters of if and how he saves. He alone establishes the protocol and he has required the belief of man before he will save.

or the new alternative form ...

"Is an atonement that achieves true forgiveness/reconciliation for ALL (the whole world) not 'universalism'?"

Again, see point 1 above. That all may be saved does not require that all will be saved. That many die in their sins is the defacto evidence that universalism is a nonstarter.


Doug

 

[atpollard]

Since the discussion is leading nowhere, I will simply state that your claims do not align with the actual definition of the word ‘atonement’ (in English). An atonement is supposed to achieve the reconciliation, not merely make the reconciliation possible. Leviticus 4 goes on to suggest that ‘atonement’ is even more effective, including both “forgiveness” and “cleansing”.

I understand your position, but it seems a systematic theology rather than an actual exegesis of the scripture presented on the term “atonement”. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[TibiasDad]

Since the discussion is leading nowhere, I will simply state that your claims do not align with the actual definition of the word ‘atonement’ (in English). An atonement is supposed to achieve the reconciliation, not merely make the reconciliation possible. Leviticus 4 goes on to suggest that ‘atonement’ is even more effective, including both “forgiveness” and “cleansing”.

I understand your position, but it seems a systematic theology rather than an actual exegesis of the scripture presented on the term “atonement”. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough; thanks for the discussion!

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, Christ’s death now allows God to look with favor, “not counting men’s sins against them”. God now has the means to reconcile the world to himself. He can now forgive as an act of grace.

This a finished action that allows for the next step to happen, namely, salvation upon belief in the gospel.

There is no sin that cannot be forgiven (save for the unpardonable sin) for Christ sacrifice is sufficient for the sins of all mankind, therefore, “all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God…”

Doug

False teaching, the reconciled world is forgiven, they dont have sin charged to them, even when in unbelief. 2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Reconciled while enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[TibiasDad]

Reconciled while enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Okay, let’s exegete this (since you refuse to engage in exegesis):


10For if,: That is to say, ‘if it is true that’

when we were enemies,: at the point in which all men are naturally, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” as previously established in Rom 3:23; if this is true, then it is also true that at that point

we : All who have sinned and fallen short

were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,: If it is true that all have sinned, then reconciliation is equally for all that have sinned. This expressed again in Rom 5:18, “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.”

The “all people” in 5:18a and the “all people” in 5:18b have to be the same in identity, which is consistent with my interpretation of this verse.

much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life: here the “we” is necessarily restricted to believers, who have already believed, and therefore have the future expectation of “being saved” by his triumph over death in the resurrection.

5:19 mimics this again saying “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous…” who believe in Christ. Salvation is available to all who believe! For the overarching purpose of God was that, as Paul says in 5:20-21,
“The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

“Might reign” (βασιλεύσῃ) is in the subjunctive which is the mood of probability and potential. It will happen if and when believing occurs. All have the potential for believing and thus grace might reign for “all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” As Paul later says in Rom 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

If the conditions of “declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead”, then “you will be saved”!

The language cannot be understood in any other way. Belief (and confession of Christ’s Lordship) results in salvation. Not the other way around.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Okay, let’s exegete this (since you refuse to engage in exegesis):


10For if,: That is to say, ‘if it is true that’

when we were enemies,: at the point in which all men are naturally, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” as previously established in Rom 3:23; if this is true, then it is also true that at that point

we : All who have sinned and fallen short

were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,: If it is true that all have sinned, then reconciliation is equally for all that have sinned. This expressed again in Rom 5:18, “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.”

The “all people” in 5:18a and the “all people” in 5:18b have to be the same in identity, which is consistent with my interpretation of this verse.

much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life: here the “we” is necessarily restricted to believers, who have already believed, and therefore have the future expectation of “being saved” by his triumph over death in the resurrection.

5:19 mimics this again saying “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous…” who believe in Christ. Salvation is available to all who believe! For the overarching purpose of God was that, as Paul says in 5:20-21,
“The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

“Might reign” (βασιλεύσῃ) is in the subjunctive which is the mood of probability and potential. It will happen if and when believing occurs. All have the potential for believing and thus grace might reign for “all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” As Paul later says in Rom 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

If the conditions of “declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead”, then “you will be saved”!

The language cannot be understood in any other way. Belief (and confession of Christ’s Lordship) results in salvation. Not the other way around.


Doug

You call that scramble exegeting ? Those who are reconciled by His death, have no sins charged to them, they are forgiven, even as enemies/unbelievers, and they shall be saved by His Life. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[TibiasDad]

You call that scramble exegeting ?

I’ll say that it is more than I have ever seen you produce in support of your arguments.

Those who are reconciled by His death, have no sins charged to them, they are forgiven, even as enemies/unbelievers, and they shall be saved by His Life. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Your prefab responses remind me so much of the responses I get from Jehovah Witnesses who have no ability to think independently from what they are told. I had hoped better from you than ad hominem attacks.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

I’ll say that it is more than I have ever seen you produce in support of your arguments.


Your prefab responses remind me so much of the responses I get from Jehovah Witnesses who have no ability to think independently from what they are told. I had hoped better from you than ad hominem attacks.


Doug

You haven't proved nothing, just throwed together your erroneous thoughts. A reconciled person by the death of Christ is legally saved from the penalty of their sins, and will never ever have them charged to their account. They are legally purified and Justified before the Judgment bar of God thanks to Jesus Christs death for them . I have already shown you scripture to collaborate what I just said.

 

[TibiasDad]

You haven't proved nothing,

You haven proved anything…

just throwed together your erroneous thoughts.

1) Thrown
2) Feel free to elaborate on how they are “erroneous”.

A reconciled person by the death of Christ is legally saved from the penalty of their sins,

Col 1:21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

(Note that Paul says the reconciliation that has occurred in the believer’s life is yet contingent on continuing “in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.” There is human responsibility both before and after salvation.)


Col 2:19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

2 Cor 5:18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Eph 2:14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

(Note that both Jews and Gentiles become one “new humanity”, one corporate entity, and thus the whole world.)

and will never ever have them charged to their account. They are legally purified and Justified before the Judgment bar of God thanks to Jesus Christs death for them .

Only after we are in Christ is there no longer any condemnation. Rom 8:1

I have already shown you scripture to collaborate what I just said.

You’re going to have to prove that. I don’t recall anything but a quotation or two of a single verse. No explanation as to how that verse proves your point or disproves mine. You’re saying it doesn’t make it true.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

You haven proved anything…




1) Thrown
2) Feel free to elaborate on how they are “erroneous”.



Col 1:21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

(Note that Paul says the reconciliation that has occurred in the believer’s life is yet contingent on continuing “in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.” There is human responsibility both before and after salvation.)


Col 2:19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

2 Cor 5:18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Eph 2:14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

(Note that both Jews and Gentiles become one “new humanity”, one corporate entity, and thus the whole world.)




Only after we are in Christ is there no longer any condemnation. Rom 8:1

You’re going to have to prove that. I don’t recall anything but a quotation or two of a single verse. No explanation as to how that verse proves your point or disproves mine. You’re saying it doesn’t make it true.


Doug

Those reconciled by Christs death while enemies/unbelief, shall be saved by His life Rom5:10

10 ;For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

SO THE RECONCILED ARE SAVED.

 

[TibiasDad]

Those reconciled by Christs death while enemies/unbelief, shall be saved by His life Rom5:10

10 ;For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

SO THE RECONCILED ARE SAVED.

God is reconciled to the world, or more specifically the world to himself. Thus, it is God who is now free to act toward us in grace because of Christ death. The sacrifice has been made for “our sins, and not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world.” Now God is free to forgive those who believe!

Again, Paul says “that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.”

The “world” defines the scope of “people’s sin”, ie, all the people of the world. It is a wholistic statement; the whole world and all the people thereof and their sins so that whoever believes can and will be saved.


Doug