Is the word all ever used in a restricted sense ?

[brightfame52]

@tpollard

Ummm ... I am a 5-point Particular Baptist.
Exactly what makes the GOSPEL "unavailable" to someone hearing it?

Im not talking about the preaching of the Gospel to all, but the poster said salvation is made available, that's false. Salvation is something accomplished by the Person and Work of Christ and it saved them He died for. Nothing at all about salvation being made available, that's conditional talk my friend. He is saying everyone has an opportunity to get saved if the exercise faith and believe. Is that what you believe and agree with ? If you do, Im shocked

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard


Im not talking about the preaching of the Gospel to all, but the poster said salvation is made available, that's false. Salvation is something accomplished by the Person and Work of Christ and it saved them He died for. Nothing at all about salvation being made available, that's conditional talk my friend. He is saying everyone has an opportunity to get saved if the exercise faith and believe. Is that what you believe and agree with ? If you do, Im shocked

To be honest, Christian Forums make me tired. You and he are arguing PAST one another about the "gospel" being available to "all" (and he and I disagree on the definition of "WORLD" without ever actually discussing the topic beyond making our sound bytes).

I was just hoping (foolishly and in vain) that it might be possible to discuss something that was real and mattered: What actually empowers and prevents some that hears from "believing" and becoming one of the saved. We "D.o.G." Christians have a point of view worth discussing. I am willing to listen to alternative views championed by men like Wesley (of the Holiness Movement), William Booth (of the salvation Army urban outreach) and Billy Graham (of the TV Crusades). I am prepared to let both views be compared against Scripture to stand or fall on their merits.

This is probably not the place for that. There seems to be NO CHRISTIAN FORUM that is the place for that.
Instead, the 'tit for tat' tends to bring out the worst in me ... feeding the Old Man that is ever ready for a good argument.

To the point at hand ...
If you are "not talking about the preaching of the Gospel to all", then you should probably not use the word "gospel" in your response to the baiting from @TomL .

Good luck and God Bless.

 

[atpollard]

PS: "Salvation is therefore available to all should they believe" - TomL

I agree.

• The issue is not that God is rejecting Human belief in His salvation and therefore the road to HELL is wide.
• The issue is that sinners (which is all) refuse to come to the light and will not believe ... that is why God must give "SALVATION by FAITH through GRACE" as a gift, teaching and drawing to the Son ... or men would not come at all.

The obstacle is the free but fallen will of sinful men, not the genuineness or ability of God's offer to save.

 

[brightfame52]

@tpollard

To be honest, Christian Forums make me tired. You and he are arguing PAST one another about the "gospel" being available to "all" (and he and I disagree on the definition of "WORLD" without ever actually discussing the topic beyond making our sound bytes).

Ive never argued about the Gospel being available as in declared, preached to all. In fact I witness to it all the time here on this forum for all to see. However I cant say Im offering or making available salvation to all.

I any case i think we may agree on the word world being used in a limited, restricted sense.

 

[brightfame52]

PS: "Salvation is therefore available to all should they believe" - TomL

I agree.

• The issue is not that God is rejecting Human belief in His salvation and therefore the road to HELL is wide.
• The issue is that sinners (which is all) refuse to come to the light and will not believe ... that is why God must give "SALVATION by FAITH through GRACE" as a gift, teaching and drawing to the Son ... or men would not come at all.

The obstacle is the free but fallen will of sinful men, not the genuineness or ability of God's offer to save.

You and I disagree here, with salvation being available for all if they would believe. To me that's making salvation for some conditioned on works, something a person does.

 

[civic]

You and I disagree here, with salvation being available for all if they would believe. To me that's making salvation for some conditioned on works, something a person does.

The gospel is salvation- there is no gospel without salvation and vice versa.

The gospel is power of salvation for all who believe. Read and believe Paul in

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel,because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith

 

[atpollard]

You and I disagree here, with salvation being available for all if they would believe. To me that's making salvation for some conditioned on works, something a person does.

Just to test your position.

So you believe it is POSSIBLE to believe and not be saved ... that God could reject your belief. Hypothetically, a person could DESIRE to follow and obey Christ and desire to be born again, but be rejected by God.

If you believe that it is possible for "God's refused acceptance" to be the reason for a person's damnation, then "Yes", we do disagree on that.

I see the offer as genuine to all (without exception):

• If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. - Romans 10:9-10 [NLT]

I see the problem that PEOPLE will not do it:

• And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. - John 3:19-20 [NLT]

Thus the ATONEMENT really is "sufficient for all, and effective for some". Where I disagree with men like John Wesley and Billy Graham is that I see "all men" as sinners that run and hide like Adam, and God is the one who DRAWS the "whosoever" and empowers them to believe. John and Billy think MEN choose and make the difference and I think it works more like ...

• For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. - Romans 9:15-16 [NLT]

However the refusal of men to accept, does not make God's offer a farce (not real). The critical issue is "IF they would believe" ... and they will not. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" - Matthew 23:37 [ESV] "No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God." - Romans 3:11 [NLT]

 

[brightfame52]

The gospel is salvation- there is no gospel without salvation and vice versa.

The gospel is power of salvation for all who believe. Read and believe Paul in

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel,because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith

Calvinism/Tulip Truths are part of the Gospel of Christ, are you ashamed of them ?

 

[brightfame52]

@atpollard​

Just to test your position.

You should know my views friend, I have quite of few threads setting it forth

However Christ died a substitutionary death, in the place and stead of sinners. Now do you believe He died as a substitute in the place of the non elect ?

 

[atpollard]

However Christ died a substitutionary death, in the place and stead of sinners. Now do you believe He died as a substitute in the place of the non elect ?

Right to Limited Atonement?

You do know that is the LEAST supported from scripture of the 5 points, right. It is an argument from "logic" and inferred from both metaphors in scripture (like the shepherd dying for the sheep) and other doctrines with more scriptural support.

For the record, YES, I believe that Jesus died to obtain real salvation for a particular people rather than to obtain an opportunity for salvation for all without exception. I was convinced by Charles Spurgeon's analogy of a wide bridge half way across a river, or a narrow bridge all the way across ... God seems more like a God to build a bridge all the way to himself and only wide enough to pass "whosoever believes" rather than a God that takes all men half-way and leaves them to jump to Him.

However, "Evangelist" (of Pilgrim's Progress fame) is standing at the gate approaching the Narrow Bridge proclaiming the "Good News" of the "Celestial City" to all who pass by. Is his Gospel and news of salvation a LIE to those that refuse to leave the "City of Destruction"? Is the offer not genuine? Is the narrow bridge not a REAL BRIDGE? Could they not enter IF they believed?

I think:

• The offer is real
• The bridge is real
• Their dead heart and fallen will is the only thing that prevents their salvation.
• Jesus did not need to RATION his blood because God lacked in his ability to save.
• God DREW whomsoever GOD chose to the path and the bridge.

 

[brightfame52]

@atpollard

Right to Limited Atonement?

So did Christ die in the place of the non elect ? Yes or No

 

[brightfame52]

@tpollard

However, "Evangelist" (of Pilgrim's Progress fame) is standing at the gate approaching the Narrow Bridge proclaiming the "Good News" of the "Celestial City" to all who pass by. Is his Gospel and news of salvation a LIE to those that refuse to leave the "City of Destruction"? Is the offer not genuine? Is the narrow bridge not a REAL BRIDGE? Could they not enter IF they believed?

Did he preach the Gospel that Christs death for a people He substituted for, He died in their place and stead specifically ?

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard

So did Christ die in the place of the non elect ? Yes or No

No.
So what? (not snark, but that is literally one of the most TRIVIAL points of contention ... as if God wants, needs or cares about any HUMAN opinion about whose sins He should die for).

 

[atpollard]

@tpollard
Did he preach the Gospel that Christs death for a people He substituted for, He died in their place and stead specifically ?

Maybe he was just content to follow the example of Paul:

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:5-13 [ESV]​

​

In the spirit of the often misattributed "Kill them all, and let God sort them out",
let us ... "PREACH THE GOSPEL to them all, and let God sort them out!"

 

[brightfame52]

No.
So what? (not snark, but that is literally one of the most TRIVIAL points of contention ... as if God wants, needs or cares about any HUMAN opinion about whose sins He should die for).

Well if Christ didn't die in the place and stead of non elect, there is no provision for them. It would be contradictory to say there is opportunity for salvation if one believes. How could it be ? If Christ didnt die in their place and stead. Believing in Christ is the result of Him dying for someone's sins. Now in preaching the Gospel it must be emphasized He died a substitutionary death and for who. Isaiah is specific Isa 53:5-8

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

 

[brightfame52]

@atpollard

"PREACH THE GOSPEL to them

Yes the Gospel and not a water down false gospel, there is no Gospel when you leave out the substitutionary nature of the Death of Christ, and who He actually substituted for. You cant just say sinners in general, that would not be Gospel Truth, now would it ?

 

[atpollard]

Well if Christ didn't die in the place and stead of non elect, there is no provision for them. It would be contradictory to say there is opportunity for salvation if one believes. How could it be ? If Christ didnt die in their place and stead. Believing in Christ is the result of Him dying for someone's sins. Now in preaching the Gospel it must be emphasized He died a substitutionary death and for who. Isaiah is specific Isa 53:5-8

Time out ... you asked what I believed. "No, I do not BELIEVE that Jesus died for the non-elect". That is not the same as "I can prove from scripture" or "The Bible teaches that" Jesus did not die for the non-elect.

Go ahead, present the verse that teaches who Jesus died for and reveals who was included and excluded.

If you are going to hang your hat on Isaiah with nothing in the NT, then you should explain why Jesus did not Die only for "Jews" (as the people of the OT Covenant).

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard

Yes the Gospel and not a water down false gospel, there is no Gospel when you leave out the substitutionary nature of the Death of Christ, and who He actually substituted for. You cant just say sinners in general, that would not be Gospel Truth, now would it ?

I have never heard Paul and Romans called a "watered down false gospel" before.
I think I simply disagree.

"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." seems a valid message to me, so I will leave it to YOU to prove Paul's words false.

 

[brightfame52]

Time out ... you asked what I believed. "No, I do not BELIEVE that Jesus died for the non-elect". That is not the same as "I can prove from scripture" or "The Bible teaches that" Jesus did not die for the non-elect.

Go ahead, present the verse that teaches who Jesus died for and reveals who was included and excluded.

If you are going to hang your hat on Isaiah with nothing in the NT, then you should explain why Jesus did not Die only for "Jews" (as the people of the OT Covenant).

You should preach what you believe, if you dont believe He died for the non elect, say so. Also what did Christs death accomplish for the elect He died for, that's extremely important

 

[brightfame52]

I have never heard Paul and Romans called a "watered down false gospel" before.
I think I simply disagree.

"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." seems a valid message to me, so I will leave it to YOU to prove Paul's words false.

Paul preached limited atonement, and the substitionary death of Christ, exactly who He died for and what it accomplished Eph 5:25-26

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Thats what His Death accomplished for the Church He died for, sanctifcation and cleansing, thats part of salvation