Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[TomL]

Sorry, you have not proven life in said text refers to regeneration. Regeneration is not life itself. It is tge process whereby life is brought about.

Um your calvinist peers refute you

The Scripture representations of men’s inability are exceedingly strong. They are said to be without strength,1 captives,2 in bond age,3 asleep,4 dead,5 &c. The act by which they are delivered from their natural state, is called regeneration, quickening or giving life, renewing, resurrection, translation, creation; and it is directly ascribed to the power of God, the power that called light out of darkness, and raised up Christ from the dead.

And when the principle of spiritual life is imparted to the soul, it controls all its mental and moral energies, so that they work to its spiritual nourishment and growth in grace. The Scriptures, therefore, in teaching that regeneration is a quickening, do thereby reveal to us its nature as a work not of man, or of moral suasion, or of divine efficiency operating through second causes, but of the immediate, and therefore the almighty power of God.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 700–701.

The death and resurrection of Christ are not a mere judicial process, upon which we may rest in an outward way: for when Christ imparts to us righteousness, which is the fruit of His death and resurrection, we must experience the power of that righteousness within ourselves, and the same conduces to our spiritual resurrection. We are now, i.e., here in this life, raised up out of the life of sin into a new life. This takes place in our quickening or regeneration by the Holy Ghost and through our sanctification, not of ourselves, but “by His (Christ’s) power.” As the mortification of the old man (Ques. 43, I., 1) by the power of Christ’s death is the first part of our sanctification, so the quickening of the new man, the new life in us, by the power of His resurrection, constitutes the second part. Rom. 6:4, 6, Col. 2:12, 13, 2 Cor. 5:17, Phil. 3:9–14.

Otto Thelemann, An Aid to the Heidelberg Catechism (trans. M. Peters; Reading, PA: James I. Good, D. D, Publisher, 1896), 175.

regeneration. The manifestation of God’s *election, regeneration refers specifically to the new birth given by the Holy Spirit, bringing life to those who were spiritually dead.

Kelly M. Kapic and Wesley Vander Lugt, Pocket Dictionary of the Reformed Tradition (The IVP Pocket Reference Series; Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013), 100–101.

 

[Presby02]

Um your calvinist peers refute you

The Scripture representations of men’s inability are exceedingly strong. They are said to be without strength,1 captives,2 in bond age,3 asleep,4 dead,5 &c. The act by which they are delivered from their natural state, is called regeneration, quickening or giving life, renewing, resurrection, translation, creation; and it is directly ascribed to the power of God, the power that called light out of darkness, and raised up Christ from the dead.

And when the principle of spiritual life is imparted to the soul, it controls all its mental and moral energies, so that they work to its spiritual nourishment and growth in grace. The Scriptures, therefore, in teaching that regeneration is a quickening, do thereby reveal to us its nature as a work not of man, or of moral suasion, or of divine efficiency operating through second causes, but of the immediate, and therefore the almighty power of God.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 700–701.

The death and resurrection of Christ are not a mere judicial process, upon which we may rest in an outward way: for when Christ imparts to us righteousness, which is the fruit of His death and resurrection, we must experience the power of that righteousness within ourselves, and the same conduces to our spiritual resurrection. We are now, i.e., here in this life, raised up out of the life of sin into a new life. This takes place in our quickening or regeneration by the Holy Ghost and through our sanctification, not of ourselves, but “by His (Christ’s) power.” As the mortification of the old man (Ques. 43, I., 1) by the power of Christ’s death is the first part of our sanctification, so the quickening of the new man, the new life in us, by the power of His resurrection, constitutes the second part. Rom. 6:4, 6, Col. 2:12, 13, 2 Cor. 5:17, Phil. 3:9–14.

Otto Thelemann, An Aid to the Heidelberg Catechism (trans. M. Peters; Reading, PA: James I. Good, D. D, Publisher, 1896), 175.

regeneration. The manifestation of God’s *election, regeneration refers specifically to the new birth given by the Holy Spirit, bringing life to those who were spiritually dead.

Kelly M. Kapic and Wesley Vander Lugt, Pocket Dictionary of the Reformed Tradition (The IVP Pocket Reference Series; Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013), 100–101.

Actually they do not. As Hodges says, it's the giving of life. The giving of life is a process.

Also, not one of them says faith is the catalist whereby the regeneration process begins.

Now, back to you evidence that John is referring to regeneration in your alleged proof text.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You can believe something but not necessarily have faith in it.

Your right

And thus you would not be born again.

Why are you resisting so hard? what are you afraid of?

John 3 is living faith. a trust in God.. The Israelites trusted God and looked to the serpent and were saved (literally reborn from death) just like we are born again when in trust we look to the cross.

Its not rocket science

Faith is never mentioned in John 3. You just feel free to insert it wherever you like.

It is

You just refuse to see it. because it would destroy your theology..

Your on your own on this one

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sorry, you have not proven life in said text refers to regeneration. Regeneration is not life itself. It is tge process whereby life is brought about.

Regeneration is the PROCESS of being made alive when we were dead.

the fact that life is in context. proves regeneration took place. otherwise. they would still be dead

 

[Presby02]

Regeneration is the PROCESS of being made alive when we were dead.

the fact that life is in context. proves regeneration took place. otherwise. they would still be dead

 

[Presby02]

Regeneration is the PROCESS of being made alive when we were dead.

the fact that life is in context. proves regeneration took place. otherwise. they would still be dead

Agreed. It is a process.

Again, that's not the point of contention.

 

[Presby02]

Your right

And thus you would not be born again.

Why are you resisting so hard? what are you afraid of?

John 3 is living faith. a trust in God.. The Israelites trusted God and looked to the serpent and were saved (literally reborn from death) just like we are born again when in trust we look to the cross.

Its not rocket science

It is

You just refuse to see it. because it would destroy your theology..

Your on your own on this one

Point out faith in John 3 then. Where is faith mentioned? How many times is that now?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Agreed. It is a process.

Again, that's not the point of contention.

The process is explained in John 3. as to when it happens.

we are born again (regenerated) excatly when Jesus said. when in faith we look to the cross.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Point out faith in John 3 then. Where is faith mentioned? How many times is that now?

I did already

again, the fact you refuse to see it is in you

If your going to try to convince someone, you will have a very hard time

 

[civic]

Point out faith in John 3 then. Where is faith mentioned? How many times is that now?

John 3:12
John 3:15
John 3:16-18

How many times do you need ?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

John 3:12
John 3:15
John 3:16-18

How many times do you need ?

As many as he needs to keep denying what is being said.

It does not literally say faith. so he is willing to harden his heart and say its not there.

even though it has been explained numerous times it does say faith.. Just in the enlgish language as used. you do not faith something, you believe in something

I guess he thinks we can just have mere belief to be given eternal life. otherwise. his argument falls flat

 

[TomL]

Actually they do not. As Hodges says, it's the giving of life. The giving of life is a process.

Also, not one of them says faith is the catalist whereby the regeneration process begins.

Now, back to you evidence that John is referring to regeneration in your alleged proof text.

Try again

One believes and receives life

John 20:31 (NASB95) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Hello

and regeneration is making one alive

And your calvinist peers still refute you

The Scripture representations of men’s inability are exceedingly strong. They are said to be without strength,1 captives,2 in bond age,3 asleep,4 dead,5 &c. The act by which they are delivered from their natural state, is called regeneration, quickening or giving life, renewing, resurrection, translation, creation; and it is directly ascribed to the power of God, the power that called light out of darkness, and raised up Christ from the dead.

And when the principle of spiritual life is imparted to the soul, it controls all its mental and moral energies, so that they work to its spiritual nourishment and growth in grace. The Scriptures, therefore, in teaching that regeneration is a quickening, do thereby reveal to us its nature as a work not of man, or of moral suasion, or of divine efficiency operating through second causes, but of the immediate, and therefore the almighty power of God.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 700–701.

The death and resurrection of Christ are not a mere judicial process, upon which we may rest in an outward way: for when Christ imparts to us righteousness, which is the fruit of His death and resurrection, we must experience the power of that righteousness within ourselves, and the same conduces to our spiritual resurrection. We are now, i.e., here in this life, raised up out of the life of sin into a new life. This takes place in our quickening or regeneration by the Holy Ghost and through our sanctification, not of ourselves, but “by His (Christ’s) power.” As the mortification of the old man (Ques. 43, I., 1) by the power of Christ’s death is the first part of our sanctification, so the quickening of the new man, the new life in us, by the power of His resurrection, constitutes the second part. Rom. 6:4, 6, Col. 2:12, 13, 2 Cor. 5:17, Phil. 3:9–14.

Otto Thelemann, An Aid to the Heidelberg Catechism (trans. M. Peters; Reading, PA: James I. Good, D. D, Publisher, 1896), 175.

regeneration. The manifestation of God’s *election, regeneration refers specifically to the new birth given by the Holy Spirit, bringing life to those who were spiritually dead.

Kelly M. Kapic and Wesley Vander Lugt, Pocket Dictionary of the Reformed Tradition (The IVP Pocket Reference Series; Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013), 100–101.

 

[Presby02]

Try again

One believes and receives life

John 20:31 (NASB95) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Hello

and regeneration is making one alive

And your calvinist peers still refute you

The Scripture representations of men’s inability are exceedingly strong. They are said to be without strength,1 captives,2 in bond age,3 asleep,4 dead,5 &c. The act by which they are delivered from their natural state, is called regeneration, quickening or giving life, renewing, resurrection, translation, creation; and it is directly ascribed to the power of God, the power that called light out of darkness, and raised up Christ from the dead.

And when the principle of spiritual life is imparted to the soul, it controls all its mental and moral energies, so that they work to its spiritual nourishment and growth in grace. The Scriptures, therefore, in teaching that regeneration is a quickening, do thereby reveal to us its nature as a work not of man, or of moral suasion, or of divine efficiency operating through second causes, but of the immediate, and therefore the almighty power of God.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 700–701.

The death and resurrection of Christ are not a mere judicial process, upon which we may rest in an outward way: for when Christ imparts to us righteousness, which is the fruit of His death and resurrection, we must experience the power of that righteousness within ourselves, and the same conduces to our spiritual resurrection. We are now, i.e., here in this life, raised up out of the life of sin into a new life. This takes place in our quickening or regeneration by the Holy Ghost and through our sanctification, not of ourselves, but “by His (Christ’s) power.” As the mortification of the old man (Ques. 43, I., 1) by the power of Christ’s death is the first part of our sanctification, so the quickening of the new man, the new life in us, by the power of His resurrection, constitutes the second part. Rom. 6:4, 6, Col. 2:12, 13, 2 Cor. 5:17, Phil. 3:9–14.

Otto Thelemann, An Aid to the Heidelberg Catechism (trans. M. Peters; Reading, PA: James I. Good, D. D, Publisher, 1896), 175.

regeneration. The manifestation of God’s *election, regeneration refers specifically to the new birth given by the Holy Spirit, bringing life to those who were spiritually dead.

Kelly M. Kapic and Wesley Vander Lugt, Pocket Dictionary of the Reformed Tradition (The IVP Pocket Reference Series; Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013), 100–101.

Great. Except none of this proves John had the process of regeneration in mind in John 20. You simply presuppose.

 

[Presby02]

John 3:12
John 3:15
John 3:16-18

How many times do you need ?

Umm...which version are you using???

 

[Presby02]

As many as he needs to keep denying what is being said.

It does not literally say faith. so he is willing to harden his heart and say its not there.

even though it has been explained numerous times it does say faith.. Just in the enlgish language as used. you do not faith something, you believe in something

I guess he thinks we can just have mere belief to be given eternal life. otherwise. his argument falls flat

Feel free to insert it wherever you like.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Great. Except none of this proves John had the process of regeneration in mind in John 20. You simply presuppose.

lol.

Have life (vs have death) ie regeneration has taken place

You are really struggling to allow the word to talk to you. Trying your hardest to avoid seeing what it says

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Feel free to insert it wherever you like.

feel free to prove us wrong

Again, Unless you believe mere belief (a belief that is not faith) is what grants one eternal life and the promise they will never perish.

then even you must admit, the word belief in John 3 literally means you have trusted or are assured of the promise of Jesus or God. which is literally faith.

 

[civic]

Umm...which version are you using???

It’s the Greek text see below :

John 3:12 Interlinear: if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?

 

[Presby02]

It’s the Greek text see below :

John 3:12 Interlinear: if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?

No mention of faith there either. In any language

 

[Presby02]

feel free to prove us wrong

Again, Unless you believe mere belief (a belief that is not faith) is what grants one eternal life and the promise they will never perish.

then even you must admit, the word belief in John 3 literally means you have trusted or are assured of the promise of Jesus or God. which is literally faith.

It's your claim sir. The burden of proof lies with you. John 3 mentions nothing of faith or that it precedes regeneration.