Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[TomL]

Jn 20:31 is for the regenerate sheep, that they may have life Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Major problem your claim requires they have life before believing when the verse puts believing before life

Can you deal with the fact that life was received upon believing, and thus the previous condition must have been one of spiritual death. But One who has been regenerated is not in a state of spiritual death but of life

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
BTW John 10:10 in itself says nothing regarding the order of faith and life
context however
John 10:4–9 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them. 7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep do not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved, and will come in and will go out and will find pasture.

is contrary to your theology as you posit sheep who do nor know his voice, follow strangers and do not flee from them but listen to them

 

[TomL]

One cannot believe if they are in the flesh, because that pleases God , but they [unregenerate] cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those verses apply to the regenerate

Sorry but you ignore the verses as they show

one must believe to have life.
Come to him to have life.
Look to him and believe to have life.



John 3:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 5:39–40 (LEB) — 39 You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life in them, and it is these that testify about me. 40 And you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.

John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Your handling of scripture is absolutely absurd. You allow your assumed interpretation of another verse to contradict many verses of scripture. It is a most atrocious way of handling scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Major problem your claim requires they have life before believing when the verse puts believing before life

Can you deal with the fact that life was received upon believing, and thus the previous condition must have been one of spiritual death. But One who has been regenerated is not in a state of spiritual death but of life

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
BTW John 10:10 in itself says nothing regarding the order of faith and life
context however
John 10:4–9 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them. 7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep do not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved, and will come in and will go out and will find pasture.

is contrary to your theology as you posit sheep who do nor know his voice, follow strangers and do not flee from them but listen to them

Your understanding is wrong,

Jn 20:31 is for the regenerate sheep, that they may have life Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but you ignore the verses as they show

one must believe to have life.
Come to him to have life.
Look to him and believe to have life.



John 3:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 5:39–40 (LEB) — 39 You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life in them, and it is these that testify about me. 40 And you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.

John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Your handling of scripture is absolutely absurd. You allow your assumed interpretation of another verse to contradict many verses of scripture. It is a most atrocious way of handling scripture.

You ignore:

One cannot believe if they are in the flesh, because that pleases God , but they [unregenerate] cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those verses apply to the regenerate

 

[TomL]

Jn 20:31 is for the regenerate sheep, that they may have life Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Sorry but you continue ignoring the fact that they must believe before they have life.

You have them receiving life through regeneration then believing just the opposite of the verse.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

You also ignored the fact that the context of the verse you quote does not support your theology

Sheep in John 10


John 10:4–6 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.

are already believers

They know his voice and follow him. They are not those of your theology who do not know his voice and do not follow him.

You are simply incapable of contextually handling scripture properly.

 

[TomL]

You ignore:

One cannot believe if they are in the flesh, because that pleases God , but they [unregenerate] cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those verses apply to the regenerate

Sorry already showed it concerns

1 obeying the law

2 remaining controlled by the flesh - being intent on the things of flesh - that is being intent on sinful desires

Romans 8:5–7 (LEB) — 5 For those who are living according to the flesh are intent on the things of the flesh, but those who are living according to the Spirit are intent on the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so,

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but you continue ignoring the fact that they must believe before they have life.

You have them receiving life through regeneration then believing just the opposite of the verse.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

You also ignored the fact that the context of the verse you quote does not support your theology

Sheep in John 10


John 10:4–6 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.

are already believers

They know his voice and follow him. They are not those of your theology who do not know his voice and do not follow him.

You are simply incapable of contextually handling scripture properly.

Jn 20:31 is for the regenerate sheep, that they may have life Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry already showed it concerns

1 obeying the law

2 remaining controlled by the flesh - being intent on the things of flesh - that is being intent on sinful desires

Romans 8:5–7 (LEB) — 5 For those who are living according to the flesh are intent on the things of the flesh, but those who are living according to the Spirit are intent on the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so,

You ignore:

One cannot believe if they are in the flesh, because that pleases God , but they [unregenerate] cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those verses apply to the regenerate

 

[Presby02]

where does the bible define regeneration as a "process" or a greek lexicon ?

Regeneration, a noun, the act or PROCESS of regeneration.

 

[Presby02]

Where have you addressed the verse or the questions

Regeneration makes alive

Instead of employing the rational of men, and conflating physical and spiritual death, why do you not heed scripture?

John 20:31 (NASB95) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

What must one do to have the life seen in this verse?

If one did not have this life, what must have been the state he was in previous to believing.


BTW you ignored these facts

Um are you unaware regeneration speaks of making spiritually alive?
Are you also unaware Regeneration makes one a child of God?
That regeneration is a spiritual resurrection?

In doing so, you ignored all the verses. Some of which Calvinists themselves appeal to as examples of regeneration.

Regeneration does make alive. It's not the life itself. Life is in the Spirit.

You also ignore the fact is life is in the Spirit. Not prior to. You also ignore you nothing good or pleasing to God can be done while still in the flesh. No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Regeneration makes alive

Correct, then a person can be persuaded spiritually, once they are made alive. A spiritually dead person cant be spiritually persuaded of the things of God. Persuasion is Faith to believe. The greek word for Faith πίστις: is from :

From πείθω (G3982) which means:

persuade

1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

And Faith πίστις pleases God Heb 11:6,

So the unregenerate in the flesh cannot please God, cannot believe, cannot be persuaded.

By nature we are unpersuadable disobedient. Eph 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The word disobdience is the greek word apeitheia made from
:
apeithēs:

1. impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious

Thats why b4 we can believe, we need a new nature and thats where regeneration comes in !

 

[TomL]

@TomL



Correct, then a person can be persuaded spiritually, once they are made alive. A spiritually dead person cant be spiritually persuaded of the things of God. Persuasion is Faith to believe. The greek word for Faith πίστις: is from :

From πείθω (G3982) which means:

persuade

1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

And Faith πίστις pleases God Heb 11:6,

So the unregenerate in the flesh cannot please God, cannot believe, cannot be persuaded.

By nature we are unpersuadable disobedient. Eph 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The word disobdience is the greek word apeitheia made from
:
apeithēs:

1. impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious

Thats why b4 we can believe, we need a new nature and thats where regeneration comes in !

Why did you ignore the rest

Where have you addressed the verse or the questions

Regeneration makes alive

Instead of employing the rational of men, and conflating physical and spiritual death, why do you not heed scripture?

John 20:31 (NASB95) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

What must one do to have the life seen in this verse?

If one did not have this life, what must have been the state he was in previous to believing.


BTW you ignored these facts

Um are you unaware regeneration speaks of making spiritually alive?
Are you also unaware Regeneration makes one a child of God?
That regeneration is a spiritual resurrection?

In doing so, you ignored all the verses. Some of which Calvinists themselves appeal to as examples of regeneration.

 

[TomL]

Regeneration does make alive. It's not the life itself. Life is in the Spirit.

You also ignore the fact is life is in the Spirit. Not prior to. You also ignore you nothing good or pleasing to God can be done while still in the flesh. No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

Don't run

What must one do before you may have life in this verse?

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[TomL]

You ignore:

One cannot believe if they are in the flesh, because that pleases God , but they [unregenerate] cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those verses apply to the regenerate

Sorry you assume man must at all times be controlled by fleshly desire;

that is an assumption I already pointed out, but you chose to ignore

and is, in fact, falsified by scripture

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Why did God harden so they would not believe if they had no ability to believe unless regenerated first?

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why does Luke indicate they could have seen with their eyes had they not closed them?

Why does Luke indicate had their heart not grown gross they could have understood with their heart?

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

How were these able to believe temporarily?

Did God's regeneration fail or did they believe on their own?

 

[TomL]

Jn 20:31 is for the regenerate sheep, that they may have life Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

You simply repeat yourself ignoring all that is stated

Sorry but you continue ignoring the fact that they must believe before they have life.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Where did you address that?

You have them receiving life through regeneration then believing just the opposite of the verse.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Why did you fail to address the fact the verse puts faith before life

You also failed to address this

You also ignored the fact that the context of the verse you quote does not support your theology

Sheep in John 10


John 10:4–6 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.

are already believers

They know his voice and follow him. They are not those of your theology who do not know his voice and do not follow him.

You are simply incapable of contextually handling scripture properly.

 

[brightfame52]

Why did you ignore the rest

Where have you addressed the verse or the questions

Regeneration makes alive

Instead of employing the rational of men, and conflating physical and spiritual death, why do you not heed scripture?

John 20:31 (NASB95) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

What must one do to have the life seen in this verse?

If one did not have this life, what must have been the state he was in previous to believing.


BTW you ignored these facts

Um are you unaware regeneration speaks of making spiritually alive?
Are you also unaware Regeneration makes one a child of God?
That regeneration is a spiritual resurrection?

In doing so, you ignored all the verses. Some of which Calvinists themselves appeal to as examples of regeneration.

Those in the flesh cant please God

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry you assume man must at all times be controlled by fleshly desire;

that is an assumption I already pointed out, but you chose to ignore

and is, in fact, falsified by scripture

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Why did God harden so they would not believe if they had no ability to believe unless regenerated first?

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why does Luke indicate they could have seen with their eyes had they not closed them?

Why does Luke indicate had their heart not grown gross they could have understood with their heart?

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

How were these able to believe temporarily?

Did God's regeneration fail or did they believe on their own?

You ignore:

One cannot believe if they are in the flesh, because that pleases God , but they [unregenerate] cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those verses apply to the regenerate

 

[brightfame52]

You simply repeat yourself ignoring all that is stated


John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Where did you address that?



Why did you fail to address the fact the verse puts faith before life

You also failed to address this

Christ came that His Sheep may have Live and gives them eternal life Jn 10:10,28

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Scripture was written to the regenerated sheep. Scripture has never, ever been written to the dead in sin

 

[TomL]

Christ came that His Sheep may have Live and gives them eternal life Jn 10:10,28

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Scripture was written to the regenerated sheep. Scripture has never, ever been written to the dead in sin

You ignored who the sheep were in John 10

You also ignored the fact that the context of the verse you quote does not support your theology

Sheep in John 10


John 10:4–6 (LEB) — 4 Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.

are already believers

They know his voice and follow him. They are not those of your theology who do not know his voice and do not follow him.

You are simply incapable of contextually handling scripture properly.

You simply ignore scripture, argument, and all that is contrary to your view

 

[TomL]

You ignore:

One cannot believe if they are in the flesh, because that pleases God , but they [unregenerate] cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those verses apply to the regenerate

Sorry I addressed it but you never address rebuttal

Sorry you assume man must at all times be controlled by fleshly desire;

that is an assumption I already pointed out, but you chose to ignore

and is, in fact, falsified by scripture

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Why did God harden so they would not believe if they had no ability to believe unless regenerated first?

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why does Luke indicate they could have seen with their eyes had they not closed them?

Why does Luke indicate had their heart not grown gross they could have understood with their heart?

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

How were these able to believe temporarily?

Did God's regeneration fail or did they believe on their own?