Is Everything Predetermined?

[Rapture Bound]

Food

It's either going to be Chicken or Pizza tonight.

I ask myself: What should I choose?

Throughout the day I go back and forth with my decision, but whatever I eat of the two didn't God already know what I was going to choose?

Yes, God surely did know what you were going to choose. However, God's knowledge of your choice did not affect your ability to select between chicken or pizza ... those options were real, and remained yours all the way from the start to the end.

 

[Rapture Bound]

So Adam eating the friut caught God by surprise and forced the human race down "Plan B"?
God was just "lucky" that Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery instead of killing him ... otherwise Jesus would have had no "Passover" supper to explain what was going on and how He was the Passover Lamb? (Without Joseph in Egypt, everyone that survived the 7 year famine would have said "What's a Passover?".)

God is either in control or God is not in control ... so which is it. (If God is NOT in control, then how is He different from Thor or Zeus?)

Yes indeed, absolutely nothing catches God by surprise. Your examples are simply some of the many that illustrates why the simple foreknowledge theory held by most Arminians falls short [i.e. - is very incomplete]. Please don't mistake my statement to be one that supports the Calvinist's [fatalistic] perspective ... the Molinist viewpoint makes the most sense by far.

 

[civic]

Yes, God surely did know what you were going to choose. However, God's knowledge of your choice did not affect your ability to select between chicken or pizza ... those options were real, and remained yours all the way from the start to the end.

Yes foreknowledge does not mean it was predetermined

 

[Rapture Bound]

So according to Calvinism or at least all who believe in the WCF they believe ALL things that occurs has been because it was ordained beforehand. All bad decisions that are made or good ones are because God wanted it this way. One could say they believe everything is predetermined. Now lets look at one text,

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. Deut 11:32

Question we can ask....1) why did he bring the potential of a blessing and curse to them, why did he even mention it? So they can choose. He said, If you obey or IF you will not obey. So the people could have asked what do you mean IF??? They could have said,

"Well what do you mean Lord? The WCF in the future will say all things that occur are ordained! These words seem like vain, useless empty words that you're saying and it seems rather disingenuous ! There can be no such things as IF, if all things are ordained now come on! Those future theologians I'm sure will be very smart people and who are we to question them? Therefore Lord no offence but I think we'll just pretend you didn't just say this....perhaps you were having a bad day." Maybe even their children when going back to the camp would be asking why would God be making such a strange bizarre statement? Or maybe it wasn't God that was confused but rather that future group are going to make a BIG MISAKE.

So what's the point in all this? God DOES NOT predetermine ordain and make our choices. There can be NO SUCH THING as IF you will do this or IF you will do that.

So if one considers it why is there an appeal to some in accepting Calvinism. Here's one thought....it a NO FAULT religion. If things are a certain way well it had to be God's will and why? Because it occurred. It doesn't require much of anything at all. No need to submit to discipleship for if God wanted me to be that way I just would. I don't even really and truly need to pray for why? It's all going to work out the way God wanted anyway!

What by and large Calvanism does IMO is put believers in a Neutral Zone. It's a place of being neutralized not really being able to function in the way God wants. There can be a worldly comfort in this however and I said a worldly comfort for NOTHING is their fault. God's will has always been done so they feel inwardly they can't be faulted. Sorry but I have to say, this would fall in line with following teachers with itching ears 2 Tim 4:3 (at least I think it does) .....in others words hearing that which you want to hear! This should not be my friends and if you're into this I'd strongly suggest you remove it off of your life. God has a lot more real peace for you then the false comfort Calvinistic thinking brings. Give it some thought and , PEACE.

Is Everything Predetermined?

The answer to this question is best answered within the position held by the Molinist who asserts :

Concerning God's selection of the particular world that He chose to actualize :

It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself.......

Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation."

 

[brightfame52]

Predetermination can only exist with an omniscient God.
God allows for unbelief to run its course.

God is righteous, fair and just.... His predeterminism is a good thing.
His predeterminism decrees freedom for the righteous.

God determined some to unbelief, they had no choice apart from Gods predetermination 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
The word appointed is passive, it means:
to appoint one to (destine one to be) anything, passive, 1 Peter 2:8

 

[brightfame52]

Yes foreknowledge does not mean it was predetermined

I would have to disagree, for it means exactly that in this context usage Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[atpollard]

the Molinist viewpoint makes the most sense by far.

Unless this is the SECOND from the best UNIVERSE that God made and we are destined for the "recycle bin" like all the other "failures".

 

[atpollard]

Yes foreknowledge does not mean it was predetermined

Of course not ... the Greek word for "foreknew" [G4267] implies a "personal relationship" (one foreknows people, not facts). Facts are OMNIPOTENCE and God knows ALL THINGS (mostly because God's "plan will be established, And He will accomplish all His good pleasure" [Isaiah 46:10] )

 

[Rapture Bound]

Unless this is the SECOND from the best UNIVERSE that God made and we are destined for the "recycle bin" like all the other "failures".

Do you really think God would select the 2nd best possible world?

 

[atpollard]

Do you really think God would select the 2nd best possible world?

That was the point … the flaw of Molinism is the assumption that THIS is the ONE of ALL POSSIBLE UNIVERSES which God created that He chose and not ”one of the rejects” that God did not choose and will just discard as a failure.

 

[Rapture Bound]

That was the point … the flaw of Molinism is the assumption that THIS is the ONE of ALL POSSIBLE UNIVERSES which God created that He chose and not ”one of the rejects” that God did not choose and will just discard as a failure.

Really don't know how to respond to your statement ... it is totally nonsensical to me ... but o..k. - you are free to voice your opinion.

 

[Diserner]

That was the point … the flaw of Molinism is the assumption that THIS is the ONE of ALL POSSIBLE UNIVERSES which God created that He chose and not ”one of the rejects” that God did not choose and will just discard as a failure.

God doesn't actually create all possible worlds... that's not how it goes, lol.

 

[Diserner]

the Molinist viewpoint makes the most sense by far.

I have some criticisms for the position:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/why-i-reject-so-called-molinism.224/

 

[GeneZ]

Bored much? Need mind games?

Sound doctrine not exciting for you?

You have come to the right thread folks!

 

[Studyman]

Correct God does not determine or predestine our choices which is another reason I cannot accept the doctrines anymore. Love by definition does not coerce, force or cause a person to love them. If its not done willingly and mutually then its not love.

I agree. God knows the end of "time" from the beginning of "Time" because HE created it. So HE knows the choices we will make from the very beginning. I don't believe in the Holy Lottery doctrine of "predestination". That is, that God picks winners and losers based on nothing men choose to "do". But it is a popular religious philosophy taught be many religious sects and businesses of this world. It is good to discuss and discern through scriptures, the various doctrines and religious traditions we were born into.

Great post.

 

[Studyman]

Actually.. if we all agreed on everything?

It could mean we all are willing to do like the Lord said, and deny self and take up our own crosses when sound doctrine is taught to follow..

With sound doctrine is how God separates believers from each other.

​

For the time will come when people will not put up with/endure/tolerate/ sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers ​

to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

For pride in our own way of thinking will reject certain sound doctrinal teachings. And, when we reject? We try to save their own life. Jesus said if they try to save their life, we will lose it. Lose the true life found only in Christ via thinking with God's Word correctly...

Instead..

Tradition based denominations of non-thinkers (spiritually) take pride in the badge of their allegiance that they take personal pride in.

grace and peace ..........................

Jesus explains why this is by pointing out the heart of man, much in the same way Jeremiah did in my view.

John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It seems the Jesus of the Bible is saying all men love darkness. And there are two kinds of men. Those who avoid some or all of the Word of God (Light) in order to preserve their darkness, (being defined as doctrines and traditions of men). And those who come to the Word of God (Light) for the express purpose of exposing the darkness they know exists within them.

I understand this to be true by reason of use. When corrected by scriptures, by first impulse is always to defend myself, my beliefs, my traditions regardless of what scriptures say. I struggle with this to this day and have come to understand that Jesus was right. So I come to the Word, and many times am broken and left with a heavy heart and contrite spirit. In this condition the pride of man is exposed. What a blessing.

I've heard many preachers who come in Christ's Name who declare that they don't love darkness. I think they should consider the Light who knows the heart of man.

Is. 58: 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

 

[GeneZ]

God does not waste time. God is just and fair.

He knows if you gave you a million chances how you would be as person making a single decision a million times.
He simply predetermines all that is needed for us to discover who we choose to be.
And, most importantly, who we choose to believe He is when revealed to us.

Why waste trillions of years otherwise?

He predetermines....
You shall be born here! You shall be associated with all these people!
You shall live at this time! You shall do this kind of occupation, etc..

Ultimately, He is not after what we are being here and now as far as life on earth.
He is after who we are in our soul as to determine how He shall establish us in our resurrection and eternity.

He does not have to make you a king to know who you are!
He wants us to learn to know Who He is!
How we turn out will be determined on our perception of Him!

He has predetermined that each one of us will be tested.
Tested to see if we want to please Him, or ourselves in thinking we are pleasing Him!

He does not have to test us a million times.
He has predetermined what is all that is needed to determine what we will choose to be in face of having Himself being made known.

His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over
a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

Matthew 25:23


.​

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus explains why this is by pointing out the heart of man, much in the same way Jeremiah did in my view.

John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It seems the Jesus of the Bible is saying all men love darkness. And there are two kinds of men. Those who avoid some or all of the Word of God (Light) in order to preserve their darkness, (being defined as doctrines and traditions of men). And those who come to the Word of God (Light) for the express purpose of exposing the darkness they know exists within them.

I understand this to be true by reason of use. When corrected by scriptures, by first impulse is always to defend myself, my beliefs, my traditions regardless of what scriptures say. I struggle with this to this day and have come to understand that Jesus was right. So I come to the Word, and many times am broken and left with a heavy heart and contrite spirit. In this condition the pride of man is exposed. What a blessing.

I've heard many preachers who come in Christ's Name who declare that they don't love darkness. I think they should consider the Light who knows the heart of man.

Is. 58: 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Some wear their preferred traditions like taking a prideful look in the mirror when straightening out one's tie or clipping on cuff links.
They dress themselves up in their traditions like some wear nice clothes. It makes them feel good about themselves, but in a wrong way as far as God's Word is concerned..

Oh! What kind of baptism do you wear? I prefer this one!​

​

Do you attend church every Sunday to keep your shoes polished?​

Tradition lovers prefer darkness to keep themselves from the needed sound doctrine with its corrections that would demand that they die to themself, to become transformed into His image.

​

All Scripture is God-breathed...and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
2 Timothy 3:16


Too many pulpits today are weak in understanding because of junk food doctrines not being able to make them strong in truth..
But will act strong with tradition and seeking and promoting what their kind of person prefers to hear.
And, give messages to work up the emotions that appeal to the bias thinking of that flock...

This is where we have come to today...

​

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

If we do not have a word of God revival we will die as a people!


.........

 

[Studyman]

Some wear their preferred traditions like taking a prideful look in the mirror when straightening out one's tie or clipping on cuff links.
They dress themselves up in their traditions like some wear nice clothes. It makes them feel good about themselves, but in a wrong way as far as God's Word is concerned..

Oh! What kind of baptism do you wear? I prefer this one!​

​

Do you attend church every Sunday to keep your shoes polished?​

Tradition lovers prefer darkness to keep themselves from the needed sound doctrine with its corrections that would demand that they die to themself, to become transformed into His image.

​

All Scripture is God-breathed...and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
2 Timothy 3:16


Too many pulpits today are weak in understanding because of junk food doctrines not being able to make them strong in truth..
But will act strong with tradition and seeking and promoting what their kind of person prefers to hear.
And, give messages to work up the emotions that appeal to the bias thinking of that flock...

This is where we have come to today...

​

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

If we do not have a word of God revival we will die as a people!


.........

Yes, there are "many" who come in Christ's Name, who don't agree with Him, that men love darkness. Oh, they believe that other guy over there loves darkness, but never themselves.

This world has never honored God, neither have this world's religious sects and businesses whose pulpits you mentioned. This world's religions will never have a "Word of God revival". This is why God warned His People to "Come out of her", and not "Stay in her until she has a Word of God Revival".

As you posted "For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires".

And this because they don't believe the Holy Scriptures definition of a man's heart.

 

[GeneZ]

Yes, there are "many" who come in Christ's Name, who don't agree with Him, that men love darkness. Oh, they believe that other guy over there loves darkness, but never themselves.

This world has never honored God, neither have this world's religious sects and businesses whose pulpits you mentioned. This world's religions will never have a "Word of God revival". This is why God warned His People to "Come out of her", and not "Stay in her until she has a Word of God Revival".

As you posted "For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires".

And this because they don't believe the Holy Scriptures definition of a man's heart.

That does not mean they are not saved. Just not exploiting the power that salvation offers after one has entered it...

grace and peace ...........