civic
Well-known member
I would say the false teachers Jesus and the Apostles warned us about are not saved and are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Is Everything Predetermined?
- Thread starter Rockson
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
I agree in certain cases like the one you mentioned that was not only Gods foreknowledge but His predetermined plan and fulfillment of prophecy. I don't think that is the case with everything but it is with some things.
brightfame52
Well-known member
I believe in all things
civic
Well-known member
I understand that as I believed that as well for many years. The one thing I will say is neither one of our salvation depends upon believing that or not. Would you agree ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Salvation is conditioned on Gods unconditional election of Grace in Christ Jesus, wherein He put away my sins before Gods holy law and Justice.
civic
Well-known member
So my salvation does not depend upon my belief in God determining everything that happens would you agree ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Friend, a persons salvation isn't conditioned upon anything they do or dont do !
civic
Well-known member
ok thanks !
GeneZ
Well-known member
I was not talking about the teachers.....
I was talking about those believers who become duped by them. Those who wish to live for Christ on their own terms
and by what suits them. They do not have what it takes to be a disciple of Jesus.
Not all saved people want to make themselves to be disciples. Sound doctrine is very confusing to them because they do not want to give up what is required of them by the Lord to follow Him.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children,
brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
There are many believers, for many believe in Jesus Christ. But, few are disciples.
Many are believers but few are disciples.
You ever seen someone at the kitchen table being offered something like broccoli, and they say, 'no thanks,' that they "hate" broccoli?
That is the type of hate Jesus spoke of. That if any relative or close one comes between you and following and growing in the Word of God?
It will be no contest. For one you will love, and the other you will hate in that manner.
Same with people that hate classical music. Others, Rap. etc... Its not a malicious hate.
grace and peace ..................
Johann
Well-known member
Any Scripture references as to your statement?
That was the "Header"
The content is missing.
J.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The first thing to know is that God is speaking to a people who are already in Covenant. God is asking for their obedience. But because of the sinful human nature in them that they are slave to and in bondage to most of God's people will be disobedient and receive curse, but many will be obedient and receive blessing. This is the reason why God Promised a Redeemer to save His people so that they would in death only know obedience and blessing.
The Lord didn't die for obedience or disobedience. He dies to set captives free in our realm of time. Our bondage to sin is real. Even as Christians we sin every day and our sins will lead us to death. It is appointed for man once to die. But the reason why God sent His Son was to free us from this sinful bondage that our first parents were created in. They sinned. Sin comes from sinners. But it is the final result that really matters. By the way, God ordained everything that comes to pass. He knows the end from the beginning because He's ordained the end. He is Eternal. We exist in time. Free will is an illusion. We exist within the realm of time which God created. All our choices and decisions are within this realm compact in His Eternalness. To exist in this realm is to exist in eternal death and separation from God. And this is why from the beginning God Promised to set the people He's chosen and written down in the book of the Lamb slain the names of those souls He's ordained to save. Since all men are born into this realm of eternal death it is necessary for God to do the saving or all will be lost. But Salvation is of the LORD, Jonah says. God isn't waiting around to see who's going to "choose" His Son, be obedient and receive blessings. God is actively choosing out of this realm of death a people for Himself. It's His salvation. He can do whatever and to whatever He chooses to do. He created man. We are only clay in the Potter's hands, and it is He who makes us vessels or wrath or vessels of mercy. I'm sorry you don't understand this. But every person who's met the Creator and Almighty God ALWAYS in time come to the conclusion that unless God had done something to save they would definitely be lost forever and receive curse. That's the condition of man. God created man sinful because that's the only way he can be created. There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
ONLY THOSE who have been saved and in time educated in the things of God and this "so-great salvation" eventually understand the Sovereignty of God and that there was no way for the person to choose God because of the bondage of sin they were captive in. Someone stronger than the strong man (sin, not Satan) needed to bind the strong man before he can pilfer his goods. And God is that Stronger Man.What by and large Calvanism does IMO is put believers in a Neutral Zone. It's a place of being neutralized not really being able to function in the way God wants. There can be a worldly comfort in this however and I said a worldly comfort for NOTHING is their fault. God's will has always been done so they feel inwardly they can't be faulted. Sorry but I have to say, this would fall in line with following teachers with itching ears 2 Tim 4:3 (at least I think it does) .....in others words hearing that which you want to hear! This should not be my friends and if you're into this I'd strongly suggest you remove it off of your life. God has a lot more real peace for you then the false comfort Calvinistic thinking brings. Give it some thought and , PEACE.
Good luck.
That is the neutral position you are in. The rest of us truly saved receive blessing while the others are still in bondage and lost. If their names are not written in the book of the Lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world then they are eternally lost from God. All God is doing is following that book and providing eternal life to those whose names are in it at the appointed time.
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GeneZ
Well-known member
Predetermination can only exist with an omniscient God.
God allows for unbelief to run its course.
You mean I have to teach Bible doctrine basics concerning God is omniscient?
Do I?
And, do I have to prove that the self evident status of God allowing unbelievers to live?
God is righteous, fair and just.... His predeterminism is a good thing.
His predeterminism decrees freedom for the righteous.
Romans 8:28 tells us that God has predetermined freedom for the righteous.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,
who have been called according to his purpose."
And, Romans 8:28 only pertains to the believers who truly love Him. Not all believers do. Revelation 3:1-3
atpollard
Well-known member
I have a better idea, rather than “one text”, let’s look at one story. Jacob’s sons … from the birth of Joseph to the death of Joseph.
- Were all the good and bad decisions made surrounding Joseph’s life predetermined by God or not?
- How would the BIBLE be different if Joseph’s brother’s had killed him like they wanted (instead of selling him into slavery)?
- How would the BIBLE be different if Potifer had killed Joseph like his wife wanted?
- How would the BIBLE be different if Joseph had lived and died content as a household slave of Potifer and never met the Pharaoh?
civic
Well-known member
Allowing something to occur does not necessarily mean it’s predetermined. It can simply mean God has foreknowledge about future events without determining everything to occur. Would you agree ?
civic
Well-known member
Just because God determines some things to happen does not mean He determines everything to happen.
GeneZ
Well-known member
God decreed "that what shall be, shall be."
He in His omniscience - knowing what could happen - could have not allowed for the circumstances to take place, and therefore having something never happen.
That is one way how he predetermines what will happen.
civic
Well-known member
So you believe God decrees rape like many Calvinist believe correct ?
GeneZ
Well-known member
Look .... we need to begin to understand that is a purpose for all things that happen.
For if God did not allow for murder? Satan and all the angels would never know why God condemned him.
For all Satan did? Was as follows.
Isaiah 14:12-14
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
Satan only had a "thought."
No one coming out of that previously perfect world could understand what such a desire could mean.
But, the Lord in his omniscience knew what the thought intended.
Jesus said if a man only lusts in his heart towards a woman? That as far as God sees?
That man has already committed that act he lusted for.
Likewise... When Satan desired to ascend to heaven and make himself to be like the Most High?
What was in his heart? Why was it so bad as to condemn him?
When God allows for a revolutionary low life to conspire against a king and take over his castle?
Then assassinate that king, and take his crown for his own?
The bad result became an overt manifestation of his desire.
That is when the angels could be shown to began to understand what Satan's desire was towards the Lord.
For, when Satan in wanted to make himself like the Most High? He assassinated the Lord in his heart!
But no angels knew what murder was, nor death!
That same desire replayed when the Pharisees wanted Jesus murdered so they could claim his position
of being the loved one over the people.... (Pilate knew the Pharisees were jealous of Jesus.)
Without death and murder by jealousy? How could Satan and the angels be shown what Satan desired towards the Lord?
Show angels who had been living in a perfect world, to know what Satan really desired to do?
Solution:
God had to allow for fallen men (who think like fallen angels) to murder out of jealousy ...
Same goes for all crimes by men. For they all represent hidden motives, that at one time, angels who desired evil
could not understand. Without an example they had no idea what their evil desire would cause.
Not unless God illustrated their desires outcomes by means of displaying overt expressions by fallen men. .
That is one reason God allowed for the fall of man.
For fallen man's actions represent fallen angels desires, being the children of the serpent.
That is why it says.... "his seed" in Genesis 3:15.
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed.
He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
grace and peace .........
civic
Well-known member
Evil men doing evil acts to those who are evil is not what I’m talking about.
What about the raping and killing of your own infant or toddler who has not committed and sin ?
Does God ordain that as in making it happen by His predetermining will ?
GeneZ
Well-known member
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Satan's desire was doing evil towards the Absolute Good One who committed no sin.
Was it not?
For Satan desired to assassinate the Lord, and take over the Lord's throne!
That is why Jesus said the following about Satan.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44
If we do not begin to understand why God allows evil to take place, too many Christians are going to become naïve dupes when evil finally decides to actually make its big move to destroy our freedom! Its already gobbling up our national freedom wherever ignorance of Bible doctrine is manifested and we see believers ending up being naïve and confused............
