Is Everything Predetermined?

[Rockson]

So according to Calvinism or at least all who believe in the WCF they believe ALL things that occurs has been because it was ordained beforehand. All bad decisions that are made or good ones are because God wanted it this way. One could say they believe everything is predetermined. Now lets look at one text,

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. Deut 11:32

Question we can ask....1) why did he bring the potential of a blessing and curse to them, why did he even mention it? So they can choose. He said, If you obey or IF you will not obey. So the people could have asked what do you mean IF??? They could have said,

"Well what do you mean Lord? The WCF in the future will say all things that occur are ordained! These words seem like vain, useless empty words that you're saying and it seems rather disingenuous ! There can be no such things as IF, if all things are ordained now come on! Those future theologians I'm sure will be very smart people and who are we to question them? Therefore Lord no offence but I think we'll just pretend you didn't just say this....perhaps you were having a bad day." Maybe even their children when going back to the camp would be asking why would God be making such a strange bizarre statement? Or maybe it wasn't God that was confused but rather that future group are going to make a BIG MISAKE.

So what's the point in all this? God DOES NOT predetermine ordain and make our choices. There can be NO SUCH THING as IF you will do this or IF you will do that.

So if one considers it why is there an appeal to some in accepting Calvinism. Here's one thought....it a NO FAULT religion. If things are a certain way well it had to be God's will and why? Because it occurred. It doesn't require much of anything at all. No need to submit to discipleship for if God wanted me to be that way I just would. I don't even really and truly need to pray for why? It's all going to work out the way God wanted anyway!

What by and large Calvanism does IMO is put believers in a Neutral Zone. It's a place of being neutralized not really being able to function in the way God wants. There can be a worldly comfort in this however and I said a worldly comfort for NOTHING is their fault. God's will has always been done so they feel inwardly they can't be faulted. Sorry but I have to say, this would fall in line with following teachers with itching ears 2 Tim 4:3 (at least I think it does) .....in others words hearing that which you want to hear! This should not be my friends and if you're into this I'd strongly suggest you remove it off of your life. God has a lot more real peace for you then the false comfort Calvinistic thinking brings. Give it some thought and , PEACE.

 

[e v e]

the book of life is real...

what s not understood is that those not in it
are not , never were , from Him...

literally -- a different father.

 

[e v e]

some heathens may be in paradise...
but I don't know what that looks like..

among those , jacob, who came from Him
hopefully many choose Him... soon ...
and stop listening to esau's version of reality

 

[e v e]

by 'our' is meant souls from Him..
... as in 'our choices'...

entities and demons of the evil realm are not being rescued...

 

[civic]

So according to Calvinism or at least all who believe in the WCF they believe ALL things that occurs has been because it was ordained beforehand. All bad decisions that are made or good ones are because God wanted it this way. One could say they believe everything is predetermined. Now lets look at one text,

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. Deut 11:32

Question we can ask....1) why did he bring the potential of a blessing and curse to them, why did he even mention it? So they can choose. He said, If you obey or IF you will not obey. So the people could have asked what do you mean IF??? They could have said,

"Well what do you mean Lord? The WCF in the future will say all things that occur are ordained! These words seem like vain, useless empty words that you're saying and it seems rather disingenuous ! There can be no such things as IF, if all things are ordained now come on! Those future theologians I'm sure will be very smart people and who are we to question them? Therefore Lord no offence but I think we'll just pretend you didn't just say this....perhaps you were having a bad day." Maybe even their children when going back to the camp would be asking why would God be making such a strange bizarre statement? Or maybe it wasn't God that was confused but rather that future group are going to make a BIG MISAKE.

So what's the point in all this? God DOES NOT predetermine ordain and make our choices. There can be NO SUCH THING as IF you will do this or IF you will do that.

So if one considers it why is there an appeal to some in accepting Calvinism. Here's one thought....it a NO FAULT religion. If things are a certain way well it had to be God's will and why? Because it occurred. It doesn't require much of anything at all. No need to submit to discipleship for if God wanted me to be that way I just would. I don't even really and truly need to pray for why? It's all going to work out the way God wanted anyway!

What by and large Calvanism does IMO is put believers in a Neutral Zone. It's a place of being neutralized not really being able to function in the way God wants. There can be a worldly comfort in this however and I said a worldly comfort for NOTHING is their fault. God's will has always been done so they feel inwardly they can't be faulted. Sorry but I have to say, this would fall in line with following teachers with itching ears 2 Tim 4:3 (at least I think it does) .....in others words hearing that which you want to hear! This should not be my friends and if you're into this I'd strongly suggest you remove it off of your life. God has a lot more real peace for you then the false comfort Calvinistic thinking brings. Give it some thought and , PEACE.

Correct God does not determine or predestine our choices which is another reason I cannot accept the doctrines anymore. Love by definition does not coerce, force or cause a person to love them. If its not done willingly and mutually then its not love.

 

[GeneZ]

All things have been predetermined by God.
Predetermined after God in His omniscience saw all things as they would wish to be.

In other words. God saw Judas as he was wanting to be.

Then God sovereignly predetermined that Judas was to be born at the time and in the place where he would be chosen by Jesus to follow Him.
God did not make Judas hate the Lord, but made use of the way God knew Judas was to fulfill His plan.

 

[Exeter]

All things have been predetermined by God.

Some people must be predetermined not to believe that, then.

 

[GeneZ]

Some people must be predetermined not to believe that, then.

Predetermination can only exist with an omniscient God.
God allows for unbelief to run its course.

God is righteous, fair and just.... His predeterminism is a good thing.
His predeterminism decrees freedom for the righteous.

 

[Exeter]

His predeterminism decrees freedom for the righteous.

Sure, and the cutting off of the unrighteous is also predetermined.

Meanwhile, choosing who to serve is up to the individual.

 

[civic]

Sure, and the cutting off of the unrighteous is also predetermined.

Meanwhile, choosing who to serve is up to the individual.

Double predestination is unbiblical , unloving , unjust , un benevolent, not good . It goes against Gods good nature abd character.

Eternal / Exhaustive Divine Decree

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).

How do the Calvinists answer?

1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.

2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.

3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..

4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.

5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?

6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.

7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).

how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

Matthew 6:9-13
“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Exeter]

Double predestination is unbiblical , unloving , unjust , un benevolent, not good . It goes against Gods good nature abd character.

Eternal / Exhaustive Divine Decree

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).

How do the Calvinists answer?

1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.

2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.

3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..

4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.

5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?

6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.

7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).

how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

Matthew 6:9-13
“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

hope this helps !!!

Yeah, I don't accept Predetermined Reprobation, but I do accept Consequential Fulfillment.

 

[Rockson]

Yeah, I don't accept Predetermined Reprobation, but I do accept Consequential Fulfillment.

Sure people will reap what they sow.

 

[atpollard]

Correct God does not determine or predestine our choices which is another reason I cannot accept the doctrines anymore. Love by definition does not coerce, force or cause a person to love them. If its not done willingly and mutually then its not love.

So Adam eating the friut caught God by surprise and forced the human race down "Plan B"?
God was just "lucky" that Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery instead of killing him ... otherwise Jesus would have had no "Passover" supper to explain what was going on and how He was the Passover Lamb? (Without Joseph in Egypt, everyone that survived the 7 year famine would have said "What's a Passover?".)

God is either in control or God is not in control ... so which is it. (If God is NOT in control, then how is He different from Thor or Zeus?)

 

[GeneZ]

Sure, and the cutting off of the unrighteous is also predetermined.

Meanwhile, choosing who to serve is up to the individual.

It has to be.
Or, God would be just as insane and unjust as Satan if He did not want our volition to be used as He intended it for.
We (our souls) are created "in His image."

God is sovereign. Yes. And... We were created in His image to have sovereignty of our own.
Therefore God has granted man his own domain for sovereignty. "His volition."

God sees our thoughts and choices as action accomplished.

"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her ​

has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28​

Understanding that puts the fear of God in a person's heart.

Our thoughts are seen as real action to God. For when God wants something to be? It comes to pass.
And, He wants to train us as sons to become more like Him in Christ.

That is why we are to take every thought captive in Christ!

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, ​

and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." 2 Corinthians 10:5​

grace and peace ................

 

[GeneZ]

Double predestination is unbiblical , unloving , unjust , un benevolent, not good . It goes against Gods good nature abd character.

Eternal / Exhaustive Divine Decree

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).

How do the Calvinists answer?

1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.

2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.

3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..

4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.

5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?

6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.

7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).

how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

Matthew 6:9-13
“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

hope this helps !!!

God does not determine that such bad things are of His creating.

God decrees that they shall come to pass ,knowing full well what people will want to do wrong.

Why? God slams in front of the fallen angels examples of how they wanted to choose wrong, and shows them by means of God's teaching tool of fallen man, how they must be judged and eternally quarantined. For not to judge them would mean never ending misery for those who desire to do good.

grace and peace ....

 

[Rockson]

God does not determine that such bad things are of His creating.

God decrees that they shall come to pass ,knowing full well what people will want to do wrong.

This seems like very disingenuous way of using words. You say God does not determine bad things but he decrees they will come to pass. So why does he have to decree anything? If they're going to come to pass then they're going to come to pass. so what does decreeing do except that it must have a part of determining it? .

Why? God slams in front of the fallen angels examples of how they wanted to choose wrong, and shows them by means of God's teaching tool of fallen man, how they must be judged and eternally quarantined. For not to judge them would mean never ending misery for those who desire to do good.

God puts in front of fallen angels the actions of men and they're supposed to be their teachers? Not sure where you came up with that as I don't find it anywhere in the word. Really not sure why you'd even put together a thought like that. Maybe you could explain further.

 

[civic]

This seems like very disingenuous way of using words. You say God does not determine bad things but he decrees they will come to pass. So why does he have to decree anything? If they're going to come to pass then they're going to come to pass. so what does decreeing do except that it must have a part of determining it? .

God puts in front of fallen angels the actions of men and they're supposed to be their teachers? Not sure where you came up with that as I don't find it anywhere in the word. Really not sure why you'd even put together a thought like that. Maybe you could explain further.

Ditto

 

[atpollard]

This seems like very disingenuous way of using words. You say God does not determine bad things but he decrees they will come to pass.

I agree he needs to put a little meat on those bones if he is going to communicate and make a point.

So why does he have to decree anything? If they're going to come to pass then they're going to come to pass. so what does decreeing do except that it must have a part of determining it? .

Is God really in control of EVERYTHING? [I believe Scripture affirms this, so I would answer "YES."]
If No ... we have issues with OMNI and DUALISM.
If Yes ... "The Problem of Evil" surfaces (as your questions point out).

I have an observation from scripture:

• At the end of Romans 1, we have an example of people that reject God and grow progressively more 'reprobate'. In this narrative, God NEVER compels them to commit any act of evil. Rather two phrases [concepts/ideas] seem to dominate:
  • These people follow THEIR DESIRES. The source of the desire to do wrond appears to come from WITHIN these people rather than from some external source. Jesus said something similar about sin coming from INSIDE us ("out of the abundance of the heart ...") and James ("when lust has conceived it gives birth to sin ...")
  • God repeatedly "gave them over". That God should both Give them over and do it each time they became worse, suggests that like the tide or Satan in the Book of Job, God restrains or sets limits on the evil that they [and presumably all men] are permitted to do. "This far and no further" says the LORD.
  • We actually have a PERFECT example of this DESIRE/LIMIT paradox playing out recorded in Scripture. Joseph's brothers DESIRED to KILL him, but God restrained them and would not allow it (because God had a PLAN that would be accomplished and ultimately give us the Passover 'Last Supper' and the 'Lamb of God' Typology and 'Red Sea' and Redeemer from slavery ...). God allowed them to sell Joseph into slavery and arranged for slavers heading to Egypt. Each evil that befell Joseph, someone desired greater (Potifer's wife wanted him dead, God restrained and permitted Potifer to send Joseph to prison. Ultimately, we get these words from the lips of Joseph: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive." - Genesis 50:20 [NKJV]

From this, emerges a picture of a limitless human capacity and desire for evil ... restrained according to the PLAN of God.

• "Why does God allow any evil at all?" - I don't know.
• What I DO KNOW, is: A day is coming when God will not! [He said so.]

 

[Fred]

Food

It's either going to be Chicken or Pizza tonight.

I ask myself: What should I choose?

Throughout the day I go back and forth with my decision, but whatever I eat of the two didn't God already know what I was going to choose?

 

[Rockson]

Is God really in control of EVERYTHING? [I believe Scripture affirms this, so I would answer "YES."]

Thing is though (reading through your post) what you mean by God is in control is a lot different from some Calvinists. Some and many believe EVERY ACTION that takes place on the Earth is God controlling it to be that way. You don't seem to believe that for you acknowledge, in Romans 1 people reject God....they do. Then you're not believing God controlled that. So back to your words above. You said God is in control of everything. But it seems you believe he allows them and only them to make decisions. Again that wouldn't be control of everything.

If No ... we have issues with OMNI and DUALISM.

I would say no. I would say the only problem would be what you're insisting how Gods OMNI ability must be played out. I would think God would say, No I can exercise my OMNI ability any way I choose to and it's my sovereign right to do so.